Anonymous wrote:

This is an important point in this conversation. Groups of kids are represented over others in these programs because they are practicing privately -- some in formal classes and some just benefiting from parental help/guidance. TPMS magnet has a high percentage of Asian kids because they (overall, not every Asian kid) are in regular private classes for a variety of academic subjects: test prep, Mathcounts, general math/English, etc for months, even year round. We don't do that, but my kids have the benefit of academic parents who can tutor them in various topics. Is it the County's fault that some kids have advantages outside of school that affect their performance in school? I don't think so. Could the County add programs to enhance learning opportunities for kids who don't get it privately? Yes. And, I think they should, but, it is complicated. The kids who are in the constant prep classes are exhausted and don't have time to be kids. One kid complains that between magnet homework, test prep/enhancement classes, instrument practice/ensembles (2 instruments), they go to bed in the wee hours of the morning. They also have a long commute. They also excel at school/tests (and largely outscore my kid) because they/their family invests so much. But, would the County even want to match that if they could (which they couldn't)? That's one reason why I hope application programs keep personal essays, extra curriculars and teacher recs in the mix. They give more of a picture of the whole student. (Of course, there are essay writing courses out there, I'm sure). Also, to consider, these students who are prepping are working very hard and able to benefit from challenging curriculum. Should they be scrutinized more because they prep? I don't know. I think we just need more seats for these programs!

I think these are difficult questions and they illustrate what MCPS has to deal with. You have one very vocal subset of parents demanding more and more advanced courses, which are in part necessary because those same parents are spending thousands of dollars to keep their kids significantly ahead of grade level.

It's basically an arms race, and it is one that MCPS will never win because there will always be a private test prep company willing to keep the kids EVEN FURTHER ahead. All of this in an environment of limited resources where there are bright and motivated kids who are NOT getting coaching outside of school to get and stay ahead.

I'm sympathetic to MCPS here. They can't win.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is just so much bias... it is systemic and even good teachers are swayed by it. They are NOT trained to understand the difference between a high performing child and a high potential child. Some do see it, but in my experience, most do not.

I have to agree. Also, because 3rd graders only have one teacher, it's hard to eliminate bias because there aren't multiple recs.

Prefer consistent objective measures like MAP.

We have faith in teachers to teach our kids and evaluate them but not evaluate them for a magnet program? Makes no sense. MAP can be an indicator, but some kids are just good test takers and some are not -- it's not a universal indicator, just as teacher recs aren't universal. It's all subjective. So, we shouldn't leave anything out. Use MAP and teacher rec. But, not MAP and magnet test w/o any non-testing performance data. Test taking is one skill. And, it can be taught.

Anonymous wrote:Absolutely meaningful because these people are trained teachers. They understand the curriculum and have many hours to observe the child in an academic setting.

There is subjectivity in many fields/processes (grant selection, academic publishing, college apps, job application, the arts, etc etc), we don't throw out the evaluation because of subjectivity.

There should be a breadth of recs to avoid discrimination if one reviewer is overly subjective.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is just so much bias... it is systemic and even good teachers are swayed by it. They are NOT trained to understand the difference between a high performing child and a high potential child. Some do see it, but in my experience, most do not.

I have to agree. Also, because 3rd graders only have one teacher, it's hard to eliminate bias because there aren't multiple recs.

Prefer consistent objective measures like MAP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is an important point in this conversation. Groups of kids are represented over others in these programs because they are practicing privately -- some in formal classes and some just benefiting from parental help/guidance. TPMS magnet has a high percentage of Asian kids because they (overall, not every Asian kid) are in regular private classes for a variety of academic subjects: test prep, Mathcounts, general math/English, etc for months, even year round. We don't do that, but my kids have the benefit of academic parents who can tutor them in various topics. Is it the County's fault that some kids have advantages outside of school that affect their performance in school? I don't think so. Could the County add programs to enhance learning opportunities for kids who don't get it privately? Yes. And, I think they should, but, it is complicated. The kids who are in the constant prep classes are exhausted and don't have time to be kids. One kid complains that between magnet homework, test prep/enhancement classes, instrument practice/ensembles (2 instruments), they go to bed in the wee hours of the morning. They also have a long commute. They also excel at school/tests (and largely outscore my kid) because they/their family invests so much. But, would the County even want to match that if they could (which they couldn't)? That's one reason why I hope application programs keep personal essays, extra curriculars and teacher recs in the mix. They give more of a picture of the whole student. (Of course, there are essay writing courses out there, I'm sure). Also, to consider, these students who are prepping are working very hard and able to benefit from challenging curriculum. Should they be scrutinized more because they prep? I don't know. I think we just need more seats for these programs!

I think these are difficult questions and they illustrate what MCPS has to deal with. You have one very vocal subset of parents demanding more and more advanced courses, which are in part necessary because those same parents are spending thousands of dollars to keep their kids significantly ahead of grade level.

It's basically an arms race, and it is one that MCPS will never win because there will always be a private test prep company willing to keep the kids EVEN FURTHER ahead. All of this in an environment of limited resources where there are bright and motivated kids who are NOT getting coaching outside of school to get and stay ahead.

I'm sympathetic to MCPS here. They can't win.

Why do people assume that every high achiever takes prep/tutoring classes? Mine do not.

But even if they are, they are still "studying". They are putting in the extra effort so that they do well in school and are more challenged. Why would you want everyone to be mediocre rather than high achieving? And yes, for many students, it takes prepping/tutoring to be high achieving.

MCPS like to tout how we have a high AP test participation rate; it touts the high SAT/AP test scores, etc... but then frowns on students studying extra to achieve those high scores?

Would they be happier if no one prepped and the test scores were lower than they are now?

Can't have it both ways.

Anonymous wrote:I think people want easy answers, and there aren't any.

It would be EASY to just use CogAT or a similar test to "fine tune" peer groups, but that assumes CoGAT is the right tool for identifying gifted kids, and/or kids with a large amount of potential.

We all know that the smartest kids we went to school with are not necessarily the most successful today, and, as young people get older, working hard and staying focused becomes almost as important as having "gifts."

Additionally, there are multiple ways to be "gifted" and giftedness is often present in some areas and not others. This means that tests like the CogAT will be "spiky" for some kids, which makes an easy solution hard.

If you take the kid who has a 99% across the board but leave behind the kid who has a 99.99999% on one subtest but a 75% in another, does that serve the second kid?

These are HARD questions, and we haven't even touched the ways in which the tests themselves are culturally biased.

I know we all want a hard and fast rule, but that's not how life works.

Anonymous wrote:

This is an important point in this conversation. Groups of kids are represented over others in these programs because they are practicing privately -- some in formal classes and some just benefiting from parental help/guidance. TPMS magnet has a high percentage of Asian kids because they (overall, not every Asian kid) are in regular private classes for a variety of academic subjects: test prep, Mathcounts, general math/English, etc for months, even year round. We don't do that, but my kids have the benefit of academic parents who can tutor them in various topics. Is it the County's fault that some kids have advantages outside of school that affect their performance in school? I don't think so. Could the County add programs to enhance learning opportunities for kids who don't get it privately? Yes. And, I think they should, but, it is complicated. The kids who are in the constant prep classes are exhausted and don't have time to be kids. One kid complains that between magnet homework, test prep/enhancement classes, instrument practice/ensembles (2 instruments), they go to bed in the wee hours of the morning. They also have a long commute. They also excel at school/tests (and largely outscore my kid) because they/their family invests so much. But, would the County even want to match that if they could (which they couldn't)? That's one reason why I hope application programs keep personal essays, extra curriculars and teacher recs in the mix. They give more of a picture of the whole student. (Of course, there are essay writing courses out there, I'm sure). Also, to consider, these students who are prepping are working very hard and able to benefit from challenging curriculum. Should they be scrutinized more because they prep? I don't know. I think we just need more seats for these programs!

I think these are difficult questions and they illustrate what MCPS has to deal with. You have one very vocal subset of parents demanding more and more advanced courses, which are in part necessary because those same parents are spending thousands of dollars to keep their kids significantly ahead of grade level.

It's basically an arms race, and it is one that MCPS will never win because there will always be a private test prep company willing to keep the kids EVEN FURTHER ahead. All of this in an environment of limited resources where there are bright and motivated kids who are NOT getting coaching outside of school to get and stay ahead.

I'm sympathetic to MCPS here. They can't win.

Anonymous wrote:There is just so much bias... it is systemic and even good teachers are swayed by it. They are NOT trained to understand the difference between a high performing child and a high potential child. Some do see it, but in my experience, most do not.

Anonymous wrote:But they are important insight on a student. To account for potential bias by a teacher, we should require more recs. If there is one bad one, it will be the outlier. Recs are a great way to communicate the whole learner. Tests (and essays, even though they're not supposed to be) can be coached. Recs cannot. They are an important independent marker.

This is an important point in this conversation. Groups of kids are represented over others in these programs because they are practicing privately -- some in formal classes and some just benefiting from parental help/guidance. TPMS magnet has a high percentage of Asian kids because they (overall, not every Asian kid) are in regular private classes for a variety of academic subjects: test prep, Mathcounts, general math/English, etc for months, even year round. We don't do that, but my kids have the benefit of academic parents who can tutor them in various topics. Is it the County's fault that some kids have advantages outside of school that affect their performance in school? I don't think so. Could the County add programs to enhance learning opportunities for kids who don't get it privately? Yes. And, I think they should, but, it is complicated. The kids who are in the constant prep classes are exhausted and don't have time to be kids. One kid complains that between magnet homework, test prep/enhancement classes, instrument practice/ensembles (2 instruments), they go to bed in the wee hours of the morning. They also have a long commute. They also excel at school/tests (and largely outscore my kid) because they/their family invests so much. But, would the County even want to match that if they could (which they couldn't)? That's one reason why I hope application programs keep personal essays, extra curriculars and teacher recs in the mix. They give more of a picture of the whole student. (Of course, there are essay writing courses out there, I'm sure). Also, to consider, these students who are prepping are working very hard and able to benefit from challenging curriculum. Should they be scrutinized more because they prep? I don't know. I think we just need more seats for these programs!