OP, I live with a similarly impossible SIL, my brother's widow, who literally has done her best to ruin every family occasion in the last five years including my wedding and my mother's funeral this past weekend. (she refused to bring my nephews to both.)

I can only say that it might help your sanity to let go of any expectation that this will ever get better. I know that's hard to hear. I would do whatever you can to preserve a relationship with your nieces and be a refuge for them if she will allow them to stay with you.

If the SIL and boys do come to family occasions sometime, just try to remember that they are not you and do not reflect badly on you. Surely every family at "the club"
Or wherever has crazy relations somewhere on the family tree. Their farting and burping and antics do not reflect on you. They are what they are, poor fellas, what many kids would be with no limits or structure. It's abusive to fail to parent so completely. So I would give up on trying to have a better relationship with SIL, focus on the girls, and try to have compassion for those boys who didn't have a choice about being raised this way.

OP,

You are a better person than I. BIL and his family would not receive invitations to participate in any of my family of origin's vacations, holiday celebrations, or other events.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get what the shock is here. You didn't want the nephews to attend, you told their mom that, she saw through your efforts to sugarcoat it, and she is now upset with you for doing exactly what you intended to do. Everything that happened afterward is a very foreseeable consequence of your decision to tell the mom not to bring her kids. So what you do now is decide that not have the nephews there is worth the estrangement, own your behavior and move on, or decide it isn't, and call their mother to apologize.

I am not sure why I have to "own my behavior". I was thinking of the comfort of my 75 year old father. He has already had to pull these boys aside for farting in church and belching/being nasty at other times. I was advised in the other thread to NOT invite them. Instead of going the easy for me route and just not putting them on the invite I tried to talk to my SIL.

I bet your Dad loves them, esp. Behavior in church you sound like Mrs Olsen on Little House in the Prairie. They are family now, you cannot exclude 2 kids who are counted as grandchildren without doing severe Joaquin damage to your entire "family dynamic"

Why do people post without at least skimming the thread?

The grandfather does not want them at his party or on family vacations anymore. I'm guessing he'd like the peaceful family he build back while he still has time to enjoy it.

Anyone who would "love" that behavior in church has something wrong with them. Not wanting to have prayer disrupted by deliberate farting does not make you "Mrs Olsen".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get what the shock is here. You didn't want the nephews to attend, you told their mom that, she saw through your efforts to sugarcoat it, and she is now upset with you for doing exactly what you intended to do. Everything that happened afterward is a very foreseeable consequence of your decision to tell the mom not to bring her kids. So what you do now is decide that not have the nephews there is worth the estrangement, own your behavior and move on, or decide it isn't, and call their mother to apologize.

I am not sure why I have to "own my behavior". I was thinking of the comfort of my 75 year old father. He has already had to pull these boys aside for farting in church and belching/being nasty at other times. I was advised in the other thread to NOT invite them. Instead of going the easy for me route and just not putting them on the invite I tried to talk to my SIL.

I bet your Dad loves them, esp. Behavior in church you sound like Mrs Olsen on Little House in the Prairie. They are family now, you cannot exclude 2 kids who are counted as grandchildren without doing severe Joaquin damage to your entire "family dynamic"

This is the sound of your lame attempt at humor falling flat. What-evs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get what the shock is here. You didn't want the nephews to attend, you told their mom that, she saw through your efforts to sugarcoat it, and she is now upset with you for doing exactly what you intended to do. Everything that happened afterward is a very foreseeable consequence of your decision to tell the mom not to bring her kids. So what you do now is decide that not have the nephews there is worth the estrangement, own your behavior and move on, or decide it isn't, and call their mother to apologize.

I am not sure why I have to "own my behavior". I was thinking of the comfort of my 75 year old father. He has already had to pull these boys aside for farting in church and belching/being nasty at other times. I was advised in the other thread to NOT invite them. Instead of going the easy for me route and just not putting them on the invite I tried to talk to my SIL.

I bet your Dad loves them, esp. Behavior in church you sound like Mrs Olsen on Little House in the Prairie. They are family now, you cannot exclude 2 kids who are counted as grandchildren without doing severe Joaquin damage to your entire "family dynamic"

Ok, then, see bolded point. I mean, if the question is how OP can make BIL and SIL feel ok about the fact that she said that the kids are brats and she doesn't want them at the party, that's pretty ridiculous, regardless of whether her feelings about the kids are valid.


I think BIL and SIL are well aware that these kids are brats, they didn't need to be told.

I also really disagree with you here. I think OP has stressed how she has walked on eggshells to the point of being stressed out about it. That everyone else has washed their hands of the situation and she is left dealing with it. There was seriously no win here. They come = party ruined. None invited = drama caused. I think she hoped by as she put it "gently" talking to her SIL and saying they would likely not enjoy themselves was the best she could try to do. Still it backfired.

No, we don't disagree at all. You just misunderstood what I said. It doesn't matter how nicely she says it, they're not going to feel good about hearing it, and that was to be expected.

Anonymous wrote:

I don't know, call me a hater, but I'm still getting the message that you think your happy, affectionate family is awesome and would be nothing but trading up for this woman and her kids. Maybe it would be, but you can't expect them to just throw themselves into this new situation because it looks to be an improvement. There is a resentment from you, "Why won't they let me help them?!"

Set clear boundaries and then let it go. Stop trying to change them or bring them into the fold of your healing family. Really.

Shouldn't happy and affectionate families be considered awesome?

Anonymous wrote:OP here I want to thank everyone for their advice and support. It means a lot that I can seek advice and be able to vent here. I am going to try to clear things up and answer some comments but first I would like to say I understand those who are being negative. I get it because I understand that they have not read everything and are just going off a knee jerk reaction of the boys being excluded. It is so much more than that. Trust me I was in your shoes. A lot of our family and close friends encountered them once and were like "oh hell no" and have washed their hands. I've kept trying and am still willing to, but at this time my hands are pretty much bound as to what more I can do.

DH did have a good talk with his brother today and our nieces will be attending. I *think* some change is going to take place, slowly. My BIL did say that his wife does realize there is an issue here and they cannot keep living like this. There is still a lot of anger on her part, but I think we might be making some headway. I certainly hope so. These boys should be enjoying their new family situation. Lots of cousins, lots of trips, lots of fun. If I may say so, lots of good food too! I feel like they are missing out on so much by being so stubborn but of course it is not their fault.

I am so sorry if I missed a question. I don't have a great deal of time right now. I want to get back to a few specific comments later when I can devote some time to them. Especially the last poster who was kind enough to share their story in the last thread and comment again here.

OP - what does the rest of your DH's family say about the situation? Have they had a chance to get to know these new family members?

No one is happy about this situation. It is always a miserable time. My MIL and FIL live in a farmhouse in Iowa, with a small tv and slow wifi. MIL cans and gardens and makes everything from scratch and the closest "store" is about a 40 minute drive. You can imagine how that visit went. There was a pretty bad argument between my (DH's sister) SIL's wife and the boys mother, she doesn't speak to any of them now. What I have vented here is the tip of the iceburg of what has been going on for the past 20 months. I try to keep it to my experience.

OP - a few other questions about your BIL and his new family? How long has your nieces' mother been dead? Was BIL just looking for a mother figure and this is what he stumbled into or is it true love?

She died almost 6 years ago, my youngest niece was a baby. It was sudden. BIL and his new wife have been together almost 3. I met her plenty of times without her boys before they married and they seemed very happy and in love. Everyone was very happy for BIL. I don't think he dated much or at all before meeting her. He seems pretty stressed now and they no longer seem happy. They argue a great deal.

OP, I read your other thread and you still sound tiresome: my BIL's new wife is awful and her kids are awful and they ruin everything for my own perfect family. You also sound like you are exaggerating - I have active, picky boys and the idea that 9yo and 12yo throw a violent tantrum if they are not served Kraft mac-n-cheese and a specific brand of chicken nuggets is, well, absurd.

Not once have I said I have a perfect family but I do have a family that should be able to enjoy time together. I also have a family I think these boys can benefit from. Your boys may be picky eaters but they are active and they are not these boys. As I've said, they also want a certain brand of cereal and certain sweets and chips. This is not a normal "picky eater" situation. They might be coerced into trying a food, but its mostly met with "Eurgh" and "Yuck" and gagging noises, then either laughing or a tantrum. It is an addiction and control issue. I think they got a good deal of attention from their mother by acting out, so that is how they interact with everyone now.

No, the BIL was widowed. Do we know if new SIL was divorced or widowed? Not sure.

She and her exhusband were estranged before the birth of the youngest boy but didn't divorce until she started dating my BIL. From what I know he wasn't around much at all, but would come back for a few days or a month and then go again. She doesn't have much family at all and it has basically been just her and the boys for a very long time. I can imaging coming into a big happy and affection family like mine and like my DHs, though his is spread out, was overwhelming for them.

I don't know, call me a hater, but I'm still getting the message that you think your happy, affectionate family is awesome and would be nothing but trading up for this woman and her kids. Maybe it would be, but you can't expect them to just throw themselves into this new situation because it looks to be an improvement. There is a resentment from you, "Why won't they let me help them?!"

Set clear boundaries and then let it go. Stop trying to change them or bring them into the fold of your healing family. Really.

OP, I don't think you sound tiresome at all. I think you sound way more patient and caring than most people out there.

OP here I want to thank everyone for their advice and support. It means a lot that I can seek advice and be able to vent here. I am going to try to clear things up and answer some comments but first I would like to say I understand those who are being negative. I get it because I understand that they have not read everything and are just going off a knee jerk reaction of the boys being excluded. It is so much more than that. Trust me I was in your shoes. A lot of our family and close friends encountered them once and were like "oh hell no" and have washed their hands. I've kept trying and am still willing to, but at this time my hands are pretty much bound as to what more I can do.

DH did have a good talk with his brother today and our nieces will be attending. I *think* some change is going to take place, slowly. My BIL did say that his wife does realize there is an issue here and they cannot keep living like this. There is still a lot of anger on her part, but I think we might be making some headway. I certainly hope so. These boys should be enjoying their new family situation. Lots of cousins, lots of trips, lots of fun. If I may say so, lots of good food too! I feel like they are missing out on so much by being so stubborn but of course it is not their fault.

I am so sorry if I missed a question. I don't have a great deal of time right now. I want to get back to a few specific comments later when I can devote some time to them. Especially the last poster who was kind enough to share their story in the last thread and comment again here.

OP - what does the rest of your DH's family say about the situation? Have they had a chance to get to know these new family members?

No one is happy about this situation. It is always a miserable time. My MIL and FIL live in a farmhouse in Iowa, with a small tv and slow wifi. MIL cans and gardens and makes everything from scratch and the closest "store" is about a 40 minute drive. You can imagine how that visit went. There was a pretty bad argument between my (DH's sister) SIL's wife and the boys mother, she doesn't speak to any of them now. What I have vented here is the tip of the iceburg of what has been going on for the past 20 months. I try to keep it to my experience.

OP - a few other questions about your BIL and his new family? How long has your nieces' mother been dead? Was BIL just looking for a mother figure and this is what he stumbled into or is it true love?

She died almost 6 years ago, my youngest niece was a baby. It was sudden. BIL and his new wife have been together almost 3. I met her plenty of times without her boys before they married and they seemed very happy and in love. Everyone was very happy for BIL. I don't think he dated much or at all before meeting her. He seems pretty stressed now and they no longer seem happy. They argue a great deal.

OP, I read your other thread and you still sound tiresome: my BIL's new wife is awful and her kids are awful and they ruin everything for my own perfect family. You also sound like you are exaggerating - I have active, picky boys and the idea that 9yo and 12yo throw a violent tantrum if they are not served Kraft mac-n-cheese and a specific brand of chicken nuggets is, well, absurd.

Not once have I said I have a perfect family but I do have a family that should be able to enjoy time together. I also have a family I think these boys can benefit from. Your boys may be picky eaters but they are active and they are not these boys. As I've said, they also want a certain brand of cereal and certain sweets and chips. This is not a normal "picky eater" situation. They might be coerced into trying a food, but its mostly met with "Eurgh" and "Yuck" and gagging noises, then either laughing or a tantrum. It is an addiction and control issue. I think they got a good deal of attention from their mother by acting out, so that is how they interact with everyone now.

No, the BIL was widowed. Do we know if new SIL was divorced or widowed? Not sure.

She and her exhusband were estranged before the birth of the youngest boy but didn't divorce until she started dating my BIL. From what I know he wasn't around much at all, but would come back for a few days or a month and then go again. She doesn't have much family at all and it has basically been just her and the boys for a very long time. I can imaging coming into a big happy and affection family like mine and like my DHs, though his is spread out, was overwhelming for them.

I remember you, OP. I'm a PP from the previous thread who had a similar situation in my stepfamily as a child and you appreciated my posts there. I've now read this whole thread and my thoughts:

--ignore the haters. you're pretty good at this, but as a dcum veteran you knew they'd come out and they did and they are the idiots. You did right throughout here. SIL is the crux of the problem and the recent development illustrates that nicely.

--Your family has demonstrated that they know that it's love, not blood or even marriage, that makes a family, with your father's embracing of your husband's family. So everyone saying "they're not even his grandkids" is also easily ignored.

--good to know you were representing your dad's opinions throughout. I didn't catch if SIL knows or cares about that, and it's probably too late for that knowledge to affect THIS situation, but he should continue to demonstrate that this isn't about them not "really" being family but about the behavior being disruptive to the larger group of which he is patriarch. And you continue to support that.

--I think the quoted pp below has a point...

Anonymous wrote:(1) the party is for your dad, not for his son-I'm-law's brother's step kids. Your dad has been extremely generous to the new wife and her kids and they've treated him terribly in return, turning his summer home and his family tradition into a stressful waste. They don't have the right to impose on him any further. No guest has the right to destroy someone else's special day but this goes double for a near stranger. OP is not responsible for this- her selfish SIL is.

(2) SIL and her children will not be family members for long. BIL is a lovely guy standing up for this woman as a good husband does for a spouse, but that doesn't mean he's happy. On the contrary, he is obviously miserable and sometime soon the fact that his children are being abused will be the breaking point. This marriage is going to end.

Which is why

(3) there is no further role for you to play here. Let your husband continue these painful conversations with his brother. He's going to have to be the one who picks up the pieces when this falls apart. He's also probably the only one who can help his own brother find a way forward. Let the SIL sit with the fact that even if it hurts her, her kids need to be excluded because their presence makes others miserable and other people do indeed matter. Those kids don't stand a chance and that marriage doesn't stand a chance unless and until they all see that something has to change.

...but I am not as sure about #2 and #3 as pp is. Either way, this PARTICULAR incident is over for now. You'll have a lovely party and SIL has another chip in her shoulder to carry around. On to the holidays!

--the reason I don't fully agree with 2 and 3 is you don't know whether SIL+kids will be in your family long-term (which I'm going to define here as into her kids' adulthood). Even if they do divorce, it sounds like all it will take is a kid from SIL by BIL to keep her in the family loop. You can't assume you're free to wash your hands of this situation, assume that you'll be involved for as long as BIL is related to DH. So what do you do? Start thinking long-term. From the long-term perspective, this is expected to be a very tumultuous time to blend these families, behavior problems or not--the death of a mother of small kids is a disruptive thing for a very long time. It SHOULD take years for this family to find its new shape. Luckily your dad has a strong vision of what that shape is, which can help the outsiders because expectations are clear (they weren't in my blended family). Your family is as close as these kids have ever been to what a family should be and they are way too young to see the opportunity they have been given, and unfortunately SIL is far too self-involved to see it herself. SIL cannot reasonably be expected to change, but kids grow up. Change IS likely for them, over the long term. I get that they are hellish tweens now, but think about when they are 20 and not as under their mom's influence. They could be looking back on 10 years of exclusion at the hands of your dad and his family...or at 10 years of the message "you are a part of this family and are welcome here...just as soon as you show respect towards what it stands for."

--The message needs to be: these kids are not on the outside because they aren't really family or are natural born hellions. They are on the outside because they are not currently able to live up to the standards your family has for kid behavior. That's on your SIL at the moment (BIL too, but honestly he sounds like he has his hands too full to deal) but at some point it will be on the kids themselves and they may make different choices. That day WILL come. Maybe they'll be out of your life by then but I doubt it, because...

--the abuse of BIL's female kids by his male stepkids is really, really, really disturbing. There's a pit of dread in my stomach just thinking about it. Remember Maslow's hierarchy? Those girls are not safe. that's level 2, the only thing more basic is literal physical survival. That your BIL is not up day and night worried about THAT makes me think he's not likely to divorce SIL. Anyway, the girls: I think they need to be your focus now. These boys are only going to get bigger and stronger and, not to put too fine a point on it, more hormonal. And if god forbid they do harm their sisters in some permanent way or other, all the latent sympathy for them in your family as victims of poor parenting is going to vanish...but THEY'LL STILL BE victims of poor parenting.

Actually, looking up Maslow's hierarchy has given interesting perspective on this situation. You're worried about love and belonging, but these kids' behavior is so bad that the actual need here at the family level is safety. Maybe you can contact the counselor at these boys' school? They can't be taking easily to schooling...

good luck and I hope your party is a huge success.

Anonymous wrote:The only ones I really feel bad for here are the three daughters. As a dad of three girls myself, this situation sounds so depressing (not the party, which seems like something out of a movie plot--that will go well or it won't). But these poor kids who lost their mother and then had their father bring in some woman with obnoxious and bullying kids???

+1 I think that most of us feel for those kids.

The only ones I really feel bad for here are the three daughters. As a dad of three girls myself, this situation sounds so depressing (not the party, which seems like something out of a movie plot--that will go well or it won't). But these poor kids who lost their mother and then had their father bring in some woman with obnoxious and bullying kids???

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me so mad.

I don't care what the bratty boys were doing. They are family now, and you can't just excommunicate them.
They matter, and the 3 girls matter, and the grandfather matters.

Families figure out how to accommodate everyone, even when it's challenging. That is what families do.

I am absolutely sickened by this thread.

Oh, hell no to this. Some people can't be accommodated, and if "family" can't behave then family can't come. This is not a first, or even a tenth, it sounds like, offense.

Seriously. When people make an effort to be considerate you work with them to find solutions. When they do nothing to meet you halfway or even sympathize with what you're going through, you tell them to come back when they're ready to find a path forward.

I think the posters who are trashing OP have been fortunate enough not to have truly toxic family members who needed to be walled off for the good of everyone else.

The thing is, this was BIL's responsibility. If he truly cares about the family who accepted him as their own for 20 years, he would take it upon himself to mend his own fences. The party is the least of it. His daughters are in harm's way at this point. He needs to suck it up and tell his spouse that the kids are going to therapy and being put on a behavioral plan or this little experiment is over.

+1,000,000

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me so mad.

I don't care what the bratty boys were doing. They are family now, and you can't just excommunicate them.
They matter, and the 3 girls matter, and the grandfather matters.

Families figure out how to accommodate everyone, even when it's challenging. That is what families do.

I am absolutely sickened by this thread.

Oh, hell no to this. Some people can't be accommodated, and if "family" can't behave then family can't come. This is not a first, or even a tenth, it sounds like, offense.

Seriously. When people make an effort to be considerate you work with them to find solutions. When they do nothing to meet you halfway or even sympathize with what you're going through, you tell them to come back when they're ready to find a path forward.

I think the posters who are trashing OP have been fortunate enough not to have truly toxic family members who needed to be walled off for the good of everyone else.

The thing is, this was BIL's responsibility. If he truly cares about the family who accepted him as their own for 20 years, he would take it upon himself to mend his own fences. The party is the least of it. His daughters are in harm's way at this point. He needs to suck it up and tell his spouse that the kids are going to therapy and being put on a behavioral plan or this little experiment is over.