Anonymous
07/29/2014 12:08
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?
Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?
Because they are a terrorist organization with the primary goal of eradicating Israel and establishing an Islamist regime in the region.
That's not true.
Which part is not true?
-terrorist organization? They are a designated terrorist organization. This is indesputable.
-eradicating Israel? It is right in their charter. Also indesputable.
-establishing an Islamist regime in the region? Haven't they done so in the Gaza Strip? Outlawed alcohol? Enforced modesty? Relied on Sharia?
What exactly is untrue?
You make me sick. It's very clear you want to equate every Palestinian killed by Israel with the most radical element of Hamas at any time.
That collective guilt crap historically hasn't worked out real well for Jews. You might want to try a more nuanced approach that recognizes the humanity of individuals.
No one is equating every Palestinian with the Hamas. In fact, most Gazans are victims of Hamas.
1. Hamas, as the leaders, are the ones with whom Israel must negotiate. So even if the average Palestinian on the street hates them, they are not able to deal with Israel.
2. Hamas is the ones sending missiles into civilian areas of Israel.
3. Hamas is also the ones keeping these missiles and launchers in schools, civilian homes, and hospitals.
4. Hamas is the one digging tunnels designed for terrorist attacks.
5. Hamas has also placed these tunnels in civilian homes.
So, the question that remains is how does Israel maintain its security if it cant go into the civilian areas where Hamas has placed its weapons?
+1000.
Look at the West Bank: Fatah is not launching their rockets nor digging terror tunnels under Kibbutzim to kidnap innocent Israelis. Hamas does this.
Further, Abbass condemned the killing of the innocent Israeli teens and even tasked PA police to help search for them. In contrast, Hamas supporters celebrated the killings - the even handed out sweets to people on the streets in Gaza!
Anyone who truly supports the Palestinian people will demand an end to the designated terrorist organization Hamas.
Anonymous
07/29/2014 12:07
Subject: Humanize Palestine
So if the 2 sides cant trust each other, then we are stuck at the status quo.
Israel will never negotiate with Hamas, anymore than the US would negotiate with Al Queda. Maybe the Gazans need to let Fatah regain control over Gaza if they have any hope of lifting the blockade.
They have also shown that when they have smuggled cement in, they are not being used for building schools, malls, hospitals, house, but instead for tunnels into Israel civilian areas. Why should Israel believe that if they got the cement and building materials in a legitimate manner, their use would be any different?
Israel will never negotiate with Hamas, anymore than the US would negotiate with Al Queda. Maybe the Gazans need to let Fatah regain control over Gaza if they have any hope of lifting the blockade.
They have also shown that when they have smuggled cement in, they are not being used for building schools, malls, hospitals, house, but instead for tunnels into Israel civilian areas. Why should Israel believe that if they got the cement and building materials in a legitimate manner, their use would be any different?
Anonymous
07/29/2014 12:06
Subject: Humanize Palestine
Can we stop with the stupid analogies already? We've done bullies, Latinos in Chevy Chase, break-ins to our houses. Obviously no one is going to be convinced by an analogy.
If Israel wants to eliminate Hamas, it need to empower Fatah, Hamas' rival for power. But Israel has actually been doing the opposite for years and years. I don't think Israel wants peace, and is actually happy to deal with Hamas. It's much easier to blow up a territory ruled by "anti-Semitic terrorists" than by Gandhi. No doubt Israel would blow up the Palestinian Gandhi's house anyway, or probably assassinate him before he got very popular to begin with.
If Israel wants to eliminate Hamas, it need to empower Fatah, Hamas' rival for power. But Israel has actually been doing the opposite for years and years. I don't think Israel wants peace, and is actually happy to deal with Hamas. It's much easier to blow up a territory ruled by "anti-Semitic terrorists" than by Gandhi. No doubt Israel would blow up the Palestinian Gandhi's house anyway, or probably assassinate him before he got very popular to begin with.
Muslima
07/29/2014 12:05
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?
Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?
10:06 PP here - let's concentrate on my parenthetical. How would you recommend Israel eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians?
I can't focus on your parenthetical because I don't believe Israel has a right to eliminate Hamas. Who gave it that right? The real question is , does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation and the answer is No
Ok, let's say Israel doesn't have the right to eliminate Hamas. How would you recommend Israel protect its citizens from the rockets Hamas fires? From their other attacks?
Israel’s very posture is offensive, and it cannot claim to be engaging in “self-defense” against the very people whose land it has been illegaly occupying for decades. If Israel wants to protect their citizens, they need to end the occupation, siege , blockade ect.
To personalize this for a moment, imagine a bully sitting on a smaller child, and every time someone objects to the fact that the bully is beating the smaller child with an iron rod, the bully exclaims, “Well, he tried to slap me, so I was forced to defend myself.” No, you can’t claim that you’re beating the smaller child with an iron rod in self-defense, especially when you can end the entire confrontation simply by getting off him.
If Israel ends the blockade, how can they ensure that Hamas will not immediately import sophisticated weaponry and use it on Israel?
And how do we ensure Israel doesn't use weaponery on Gaza and Hamas? Why does Israel have a right to arm itself but nobody else can? Why would Israel have the monopoly on owning weapons?
Muslima
07/29/2014 12:02
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:
I don't speak for Hamas, you can ask them why they don't have an updated charter on their website even though they have already said all their demands are available on the site. You are free to choose what to question, just like I am, my question wasnt directed at you. I don't speak for you, you are free to speak for yourself
That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? Especially since you have plenty of guesses about other things.
If you had to guess why Hamas "has no charter" right now, why would you guess it is? Too busy?
To be honest, my guess is they don't have a charter because there might be some disagreements among their members and they can't agree on what their charter should be. They will of course not admit internal discord publicly because that would weaken their organization in the eyes of their "ennemies". Hamas is a huge organization, but this is just my guess, do not quote me on it, I do not have any insider info on the issue
Ding ding ding! I think you are entirely correct. I also think it's not going too far to say that at least some of the disagreement is over whether they should kill all the Jews or not.
Now, do you really not think that it impairs diplomatic relations when the elected party cannot amongst themselves even agree to simply not killing Jews?
See why Israel might be a wee bit hesitant about accepting Hamas as a partner in peace?
I never said Hamas was the perfect party to lead the Palestinians. But the same goes for Israel, why should they be trusted? For more than two decades, Palestinians and Israelis have been engaged in a so-called peace process, which aims to establish a Palestinian state on the occupied territories, the small areas from which Israel is legally required to withdraw. But that peace process failed time and again because Israel was never serious about allowing a viable Palestinian state to exist, and insisted on swallowing up more and more Palestinian land through relentless settlement expansion, in direct violation of international law. More recently, Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu candidly(though only in Hebrew) ruled out the possibility of allowing a sovereign Palestinian state to exist.
But because global perceptions are important, Israel is always looking for a way to deflect responsibility for the failure of the peace process onto the Palestinians. One of the talking points used to that end is theclaim that there is “no partner for peace” on the Palestinian side because the leadership was divided. So when Hamas and the Palestinian Authority agreed to end their division in recent months, Netanyahu’s government freaked out and demanded Western governments boycott the new united Palestinian leadership. When, to Netanyahu’s bitter disappointment, the U.S. insisted on dealing with the new Palestinian government anyway, Israel seems to have opted for a direct confrontation with Hamas to break up the unity government. One can see the cynical exploitation of the teens’ kidnapping to this end simply by looking at the Jerusalem Post headline, which reads: “Netanyahu to Kerry: PA’s Hamas-backed unity government to blame for missing teens.” Evidence for this sort of nonsense, of course, is nowhere to be seen.
Anonymous
07/29/2014 12:02
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Muslima wrote:
my answers are in bold
Which part is not true?
-eradicating Israel? It is right in their charter. Also indesputable. Correction, as noted in previous posts above, Hamas doesn't use that charter and has said it was irrelevant and not what they believe in
Dude, yeah. I mean really, who hasn't gotten drunk and accidentally written a charter that says KILL THE JEWS? It's like you were never young.
Anonymous
07/29/2014 12:00
Subject: Humanize Palestine
And now I'm imagining the "bully" being told to quit overreacting to having stones thrown at his head by the smaller child. Because look how much smaller and weaker that child is! Surely the bigger child should put up with some gashes and lose an eye here or there so as not to be seen as a bully, right?
Anonymous
07/29/2014 11:57
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?
Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?
10:06 PP here - let's concentrate on my parenthetical. How would you recommend Israel eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians?
I can't focus on your parenthetical because I don't believe Israel has a right to eliminate Hamas. Who gave it that right? The real question is , does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation and the answer is No
Ok, let's say Israel doesn't have the right to eliminate Hamas. How would you recommend Israel protect its citizens from the rockets Hamas fires? From their other attacks?
Israel’s very posture is offensive, and it cannot claim to be engaging in “self-defense” against the very people whose land it has been illegaly occupying for decades. If Israel wants to protect their citizens, they need to end the occupation, siege , blockade ect.
To personalize this for a moment, imagine a bully sitting on a smaller child, and every time someone objects to the fact that the bully is beating the smaller child with an iron rod, the bully exclaims, “Well, he tried to slap me, so I was forced to defend myself.” No, you can’t claim that you’re beating the smaller child with an iron rod in self-defense, especially when you can end the entire confrontation simply by getting off him.
If Israel ends the blockade, how can they ensure that Hamas will not immediately import sophisticated weaponry and use it on Israel?
Anonymous
07/29/2014 11:56
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?
Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?
10:06 PP here - let's concentrate on my parenthetical. How would you recommend Israel eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians?
I can't focus on your parenthetical because I don't believe Israel has a right to eliminate Hamas. Who gave it that right? The real question is , does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation and the answer is No
Ok, let's say Israel doesn't have the right to eliminate Hamas. How would you recommend Israel protect its citizens from the rockets Hamas fires? From their other attacks?
Israel’s very posture is offensive, and it cannot claim to be engaging in “self-defense” against the very people whose land it has been illegaly occupying for decades. If Israel wants to protect their citizens, they need to end the occupation, siege , blockade ect.
To personalize this for a moment, imagine a bully sitting on a smaller child, and every time someone objects to the fact that the bully is beating the smaller child with an iron rod, the bully exclaims, “Well, he tried to slap me, so I was forced to defend myself.” No, you can’t claim that you’re beating the smaller child with an iron rod in self-defense, especially when you can end the entire confrontation simply by getting off him.
So if Israel end the blockade of Gaza, there will never be another missile or attack on Israel and they will all live happily ever after? Does Israel get any sort of assurance or guarantee? Maybe a pinky swear?
What about from 2005-2007 when there was no blockade but there were many rockets?
Muslima
07/29/2014 11:52
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?
Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?
10:06 PP here - let's concentrate on my parenthetical. How would you recommend Israel eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians?
I can't focus on your parenthetical because I don't believe Israel has a right to eliminate Hamas. Who gave it that right? The real question is , does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation and the answer is No
Ok, let's say Israel doesn't have the right to eliminate Hamas. How would you recommend Israel protect its citizens from the rockets Hamas fires? From their other attacks?
Israel’s very posture is offensive, and it cannot claim to be engaging in “self-defense” against the very people whose land it has been illegaly occupying for decades. If Israel wants to protect their citizens, they need to end the occupation, siege , blockade ect.
To personalize this for a moment, imagine a bully sitting on a smaller child, and every time someone objects to the fact that the bully is beating the smaller child with an iron rod, the bully exclaims, “Well, he tried to slap me, so I was forced to defend myself.” No, you can’t claim that you’re beating the smaller child with an iron rod in self-defense, especially when you can end the entire confrontation simply by getting off him.
Anonymous
07/29/2014 11:50
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?
Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?
Because they are a terrorist organization with the primary goal of eradicating Israel and establishing an Islamist regime in the region.
That's not true.
Which part is not true?
-terrorist organization? They are a designated terrorist organization. This is indesputable.
-eradicating Israel? It is right in their charter. Also indesputable.
-establishing an Islamist regime in the region? Haven't they done so in the Gaza Strip? Outlawed alcohol? Enforced modesty? Relied on Sharia?
What exactly is untrue?
You make me sick. It's very clear you want to equate every Palestinian killed by Israel with the most radical element of Hamas at any time.
That collective guilt crap historically hasn't worked out real well for Jews. You might want to try a more nuanced approach that recognizes the humanity of individuals.
No one is equating every Palestinian with the Hamas. In fact, most Gazans are victims of Hamas.
1. Hamas, as the leaders, are the ones with whom Israel must negotiate. So even if the average Palestinian on the street hates them, they are not able to deal with Israel.
2. Hamas is the ones sending missiles into civilian areas of Israel.
3. Hamas is also the ones keeping these missiles and launchers in schools, civilian homes, and hospitals.
4. Hamas is the one digging tunnels designed for terrorist attacks.
5. Hamas has also placed these tunnels in civilian homes.
So, the question that remains is how does Israel maintain its security if it cant go into the civilian areas where Hamas has placed its weapons?
Muslima
07/29/2014 11:48
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
my answers are in bold
Which part is not true?
-terrorist organization? They are a designated terrorist organization. This is indesputable. Correction: They are designated a terrorist organization by the US, Israel, and some European countries. The United Nations doesn't recognize them as a terrorist org.
-eradicating Israel? It is right in their charter. Also indesputable. Correction, as noted in previous posts above, Hamas doesn't use that charter and has said it was irrelevant and not what they believe in
-establishing an Islamist regime in the region? Haven't they done so in the Gaza Strip? Outlawed alcohol? Enforced modesty? Relied on Sharia? Please see response above
What exactly is untrue?
Anonymous
07/29/2014 11:47
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?
Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?
10:06 PP here - let's concentrate on my parenthetical. How would you recommend Israel eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians?
I can't focus on your parenthetical because I don't believe Israel has a right to eliminate Hamas. Who gave it that right? The real question is , does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation and the answer is No
Ok, let's say Israel doesn't have the right to eliminate Hamas. How would you recommend Israel protect its citizens from the rockets Hamas fires? From their other attacks?
Anonymous
07/29/2014 11:45
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?
Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?
Because they are a terrorist organization with the primary goal of eradicating Israel and establishing an Islamist regime in the region.
That's not true.
Which part is not true?
-terrorist organization? They are a designated terrorist organization. This is indesputable.
-eradicating Israel? It is right in their charter. Also indesputable.
-establishing an Islamist regime in the region? Haven't they done so in the Gaza Strip? Outlawed alcohol? Enforced modesty? Relied on Sharia?
What exactly is untrue?
You make me sick. It's very clear you want to equate every Palestinian killed by Israel with the most radical element of Hamas at any time.
That collective guilt crap historically hasn't worked out real well for Jews. You might want to try a more nuanced approach that recognizes the humanity of individuals.
Anonymous
07/29/2014 11:42
Subject: Re:Humanize Palestine
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?
Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?
Because they are a terrorist organization with the primary goal of eradicating Israel and establishing an Islamist regime in the region.
That's not true.
Which part is not true?
-terrorist organization? They are a designated terrorist organization. This is indesputable.
-eradicating Israel? It is right in their charter. Also indesputable.
-establishing an Islamist regime in the region? Haven't they done so in the Gaza Strip? Outlawed alcohol? Enforced modesty? Relied on Sharia?
What exactly is untrue?
Aww, Muslima has already said that you can't hold them to anything in their charter. It's like totally out of date. And they're way too busy to update it.