Anonymous wrote:Spoke with a doctor's dad last night. He said lots of doctors are going out on their own on a cash basis. There will be two healthcare systems in the US--public and private.

Right now - single payer, i.e. Hillary-care, from what I understand, would have made that illegal.

Spoke with a doctor's dad last night. He said lots of doctors are going out on their own on a cash basis. There will be two healthcare systems in the US--public and private.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And when it's done right, i.e. by Constitutional amendment, then I think it's wonderful. When the laws of this land are deliberately not enforced and/or gone around? Not so much.

Let's be clear about one thing. You have no right to determine what has been done constitutionally and what has not. The Supreme Court -- led by a conservative Chief Justice -- determined that Obamacare is constitutional. You can be of the opinion that that decision was wrong. But, you cannot say that it was unconstitutional. You do not have that power. The Constitution that you claim to hold so dear does not delegate that power to you.

Similarly, bills can be amended in Congress. That is legal and happens to almost every bill. You do not have the right to determine how much of a bill can be amended. If a single word of a bill is changed, and the modified bill is approved by both chambers of Congress and signed by the President, then the modified bill becomes law. The same is true if every word of the bill is changed. You can have the opinion that this procedure is wrong. But, regardless of your opinion, the procedure is perfectly legal.

One other thing you cannot do is expect American citizens to leave the US because they support legal and constitutional changes to our laws. That is the act of an ignorant and closed-minded person. If you are not happy with the changes, you have the right to leave. You do not have the right to expect others to leave. A better person than you would apologize for the suggestion. Sadly, you are not a better person.

Actually, when Levin, a Constitutional lawyer, also feels the same, then there is weight to my thoughts. Again, you are looking at a black dog with three white hairs, and calling me a liar for saying it's black.

Whether something is legal (i.e. changing all the text but keeping the number the same) is one thing; calling it the same bill and stating it's constitutional is another. That's why it's back in court.

I'm not expecting you to leave; I'm asking you why you would want to stay in a country that you want to fundamentally change. Having the Feds take over health care is a HUGE change and you said you'd like to see single-payer. Well that's available to you already, and you're free to move, FREE being the key word. On the other hand, where will people like me go when people like you socialize the nation to get the type of health care I am pleased with here? There is a reason why single-payer countries have started allowing privatization in their countries - the people demanded it and their system couldn't handle a strict single-payer system. So since we know this, why on EARTH would someone with any common sense want to do what's already failed?

And yeah, I do have the right to ask you about leaving, rather than be so selfish as to impose a change on a country a huge percentage of the population does not want, even shy of single-payer. It's called freedom. Ain't America grand?

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Any man that continually needs to insult, accuse, and otherwise behave in such a manner can't be of great intellect. Disgusting behavior. Were my husband to treat people like this, I would probably have left.

So can you please leave this forum, then? It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to insult Jeff using his personal information while remaining anonymous.

Jeff has placed this information out there publicly a few times, including using it to make his points. There's nothing personal to be claimed when someone puts the information out there for all to see.

I asked him a question; it's interesting why you would consider that an insult.

The insult is your suggestion that I move to Russia -- a country with which neither I nor any member of my family has a connection. It is further insulting that your motive for suggesting I move is a baseless accusation that I don't support our form of government. You have absolutely no support for your accusation. To the contrary, where I have expressed disappointment with, and opposition to, specific policies of our government, you have accused all three branches of government of unconstitutional behavior. Clearly, your opposition is much stronger than mine. It is insulting that you are not capable of a better response to criticism of government policies than "love it or leave it", particularly when you are such an obvious critic yourself.

It was a question based on choice - your choice. OK, so now that we have determined your wife is from Georgia, why not go there? What is it about this country that keeps you here if you agree with the fact it needs fundamentally changing?

The greatest heroes in American history have contributed to fundamental change in this country. Your "love it or leave it" attitude, combined with your own dislike for the current President, Congress, and Supreme Court, is disgusting. You really have reached a new low.

And when it's done right, i.e. by Constitutional amendment, then I think it's wonderful. When the laws of this land are deliberately not enforced and/or gone around? Not so much.

You mean like this?





Gee, what's the common thread?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I do have a question - if you are so hell-bent on turning America into Russia, why did your wife opt to come here, rather than you go there?

As a result of your ignorance, your question is nonsensical. Assuming you are alluding to my support for single-payer healthcare, that would be more consistent with the Soviet Union -- or Canada -- then either Tsarist Russia or post-Soviet Russia. Russia has a system not too dissimilar from Obamacare. Regardless, my wife is from Georgia. You may recognize that as the country which recently had a war with Russia.

Why on earth would you live here if you don't like the system of government?

I have no idea how you deduced from the fact that you are too stupid to distinguish between Russia, Georgia, and the Soviet Union, the conclusion that I don't like the system of government here. Moreover, given that you have said that our president is a traitor, that Congress illegally passed the Affordable Healthcare Act, and that the Supreme Court has been acting unconstitutionally, the real question should be why are you living here?

As they say, "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". Even scoundrels who hold your anti-government beliefs play that card. There is no greater indication of intellectual bankruptcy.

Because I'm the one who believes in our system of government as laid out by the forefathers and would like to see a return to that, without all the corrupt behavior. I'm not the one, like you, who believes we should be 'fundamentally changing America", which is an anti-government belief, i.e. 'what's written is so poor, it needs to be fixed' (apparently via socialization).

So again, you can twist and turn all you want, but the fact is, this President has indeed behaved in traitorous ways. You might agree with his illegal spying, his war(s) uncleared through Congress, his cohorts using of only a bill number and then claiming it's the same bill, but anyone with any logic at all, never mind any sort of belief in our forefathers' vision, can't go there.

The thing about the forefathers is they say y'all coming - they knew that when you give men power, they will use that to their advantage and do anything to keep it. So they went through great pains to create a system of government that puts the power in the people's hands. That progressives think it's a better idea to give the government officials MORE power, is stunning in my eyes, as it's pretty clear that our forefathers were correct about how people in power behave. And to do it, using the methods and attacks progressives use proves the forefathers correct yet again.

Yea, but even Thomas Jefferson (last I checked, he was a Founding Father) even said that the Constitution was not a perpetual document - meaning that it SHOULD be intepreted to reflect the contemporary environment.

It is interesting too that your "power" lecture fails to discuss how deregulation (less government power) negatively impacted our financial, commodities and utilities markets. Seems to me that you are ok with giving power to a few - as long as they are not in government.

And interestingly enough, it can be - by following the checks and balances set up by Jefferson and the other founding fathers. The problem is, that's too much work for progressives.

And yet....I am NOT a progressive. I am a moderate. So honestly, if your retort to everything is a dig at progressives, then you are not making a point at all to me.

Besides that, the checks and balances did work in the Obamacare situtation - you just do not like the conclusion so you blame the process.

Anonymous wrote:
And when it's done right, i.e. by Constitutional amendment, then I think it's wonderful. When the laws of this land are deliberately not enforced and/or gone around? Not so much.

Let's be clear about one thing. You have no right to determine what has been done constitutionally and what has not. The Supreme Court -- led by a conservative Chief Justice -- determined that Obamacare is constitutional. You can be of the opinion that that decision was wrong. But, you cannot say that it was unconstitutional. You do not have that power. The Constitution that you claim to hold so dear does not delegate that power to you.

Similarly, bills can be amended in Congress. That is legal and happens to almost every bill. You do not have the right to determine how much of a bill can be amended. If a single word of a bill is changed, and the modified bill is approved by both chambers of Congress and signed by the President, then the modified bill becomes law. The same is true if every word of the bill is changed. You can have the opinion that this procedure is wrong. But, regardless of your opinion, the procedure is perfectly legal.

One other thing you cannot do is expect American citizens to leave the US because they support legal and constitutional changes to our laws. That is the act of an ignorant and closed-minded person. If you are not happy with the changes, you have the right to leave. You do not have the right to expect others to leave. A better person than you would apologize for the suggestion. Sadly, you are not a better person.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Any man that continually needs to insult, accuse, and otherwise behave in such a manner can't be of great intellect. Disgusting behavior. Were my husband to treat people like this, I would probably have left.

So can you please leave this forum, then? It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to insult Jeff using his personal information while remaining anonymous.

Jeff has placed this information out there publicly a few times, including using it to make his points. There's nothing personal to be claimed when someone puts the information out there for all to see.

I asked him a question; it's interesting why you would consider that an insult.

The insult is your suggestion that I move to Russia -- a country with which neither I nor any member of my family has a connection. It is further insulting that your motive for suggesting I move is a baseless accusation that I don't support our form of government. You have absolutely no support for your accusation. To the contrary, where I have expressed disappointment with, and opposition to, specific policies of our government, you have accused all three branches of government of unconstitutional behavior. Clearly, your opposition is much stronger than mine. It is insulting that you are not capable of a better response to criticism of government policies than "love it or leave it", particularly when you are such an obvious critic yourself.

It was a question based on choice - your choice. OK, so now that we have determined your wife is from Georgia, why not go there? What is it about this country that keeps you here if you agree with the fact it needs fundamentally changing?

The greatest heroes in American history have contributed to fundamental change in this country. Your "love it or leave it" attitude, combined with your own dislike for the current President, Congress, and Supreme Court, is disgusting. You really have reached a new low.

And when it's done right, i.e. by Constitutional amendment, then I think it's wonderful. When the laws of this land are deliberately not enforced and/or gone around? Not so much.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I do have a question - if you are so hell-bent on turning America into Russia, why did your wife opt to come here, rather than you go there?

As a result of your ignorance, your question is nonsensical. Assuming you are alluding to my support for single-payer healthcare, that would be more consistent with the Soviet Union -- or Canada -- then either Tsarist Russia or post-Soviet Russia. Russia has a system not too dissimilar from Obamacare. Regardless, my wife is from Georgia. You may recognize that as the country which recently had a war with Russia.

Why on earth would you live here if you don't like the system of government?

I have no idea how you deduced from the fact that you are too stupid to distinguish between Russia, Georgia, and the Soviet Union, the conclusion that I don't like the system of government here. Moreover, given that you have said that our president is a traitor, that Congress illegally passed the Affordable Healthcare Act, and that the Supreme Court has been acting unconstitutionally, the real question should be why are you living here?

As they say, "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". Even scoundrels who hold your anti-government beliefs play that card. There is no greater indication of intellectual bankruptcy.

Because I'm the one who believes in our system of government as laid out by the forefathers and would like to see a return to that, without all the corrupt behavior. I'm not the one, like you, who believes we should be 'fundamentally changing America", which is an anti-government belief, i.e. 'what's written is so poor, it needs to be fixed' (apparently via socialization).

So again, you can twist and turn all you want, but the fact is, this President has indeed behaved in traitorous ways. You might agree with his illegal spying, his war(s) uncleared through Congress, his cohorts using of only a bill number and then claiming it's the same bill, but anyone with any logic at all, never mind any sort of belief in our forefathers' vision, can't go there.

The thing about the forefathers is they say y'all coming - they knew that when you give men power, they will use that to their advantage and do anything to keep it. So they went through great pains to create a system of government that puts the power in the people's hands. That progressives think it's a better idea to give the government officials MORE power, is stunning in my eyes, as it's pretty clear that our forefathers were correct about how people in power behave. And to do it, using the methods and attacks progressives use proves the forefathers correct yet again.

Yea, but even Thomas Jefferson (last I checked, he was a Founding Father) even said that the Constitution was not a perpetual document - meaning that it SHOULD be intepreted to reflect the contemporary environment.

It is interesting too that your "power" lecture fails to discuss how deregulation (less government power) negatively impacted our financial, commodities and utilities markets. Seems to me that you are ok with giving power to a few - as long as they are not in government.

And interestingly enough, it can be - by following the checks and balances set up by Jefferson and the other founding fathers. The problem is, that's too much work for progressives.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Any man that continually needs to insult, accuse, and otherwise behave in such a manner can't be of great intellect. Disgusting behavior. Were my husband to treat people like this, I would probably have left.

So can you please leave this forum, then? It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to insult Jeff using his personal information while remaining anonymous.

Jeff has placed this information out there publicly a few times, including using it to make his points. There's nothing personal to be claimed when someone puts the information out there for all to see.

I asked him a question; it's interesting why you would consider that an insult.

The insult is your suggestion that I move to Russia -- a country with which neither I nor any member of my family has a connection. It is further insulting that your motive for suggesting I move is a baseless accusation that I don't support our form of government. You have absolutely no support for your accusation. To the contrary, where I have expressed disappointment with, and opposition to, specific policies of our government, you have accused all three branches of government of unconstitutional behavior. Clearly, your opposition is much stronger than mine. It is insulting that you are not capable of a better response to criticism of government policies than "love it or leave it", particularly when you are such an obvious critic yourself.

It was a question based on choice - your choice. OK, so now that we have determined your wife is from Georgia, why not go there? What is it about this country that keeps you here if you agree with the fact it needs fundamentally changing?

What is so "fundamentally changing" about wanting better health care and for the government to stop spying on or killing Americans without trial?

The first is not in the Constitution and is being bastardized by this government. The second is, and is being bastardized by this government. In other words. progressive bastardize the government.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I do have a question - if you are so hell-bent on turning America into Russia, why did your wife opt to come here, rather than you go there?

As a result of your ignorance, your question is nonsensical. Assuming you are alluding to my support for single-payer healthcare, that would be more consistent with the Soviet Union -- or Canada -- then either Tsarist Russia or post-Soviet Russia. Russia has a system not too dissimilar from Obamacare. Regardless, my wife is from Georgia. You may recognize that as the country which recently had a war with Russia.

Why on earth would you live here if you don't like the system of government?

I have no idea how you deduced from the fact that you are too stupid to distinguish between Russia, Georgia, and the Soviet Union, the conclusion that I don't like the system of government here. Moreover, given that you have said that our president is a traitor, that Congress illegally passed the Affordable Healthcare Act, and that the Supreme Court has been acting unconstitutionally, the real question should be why are you living here?

As they say, "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". Even scoundrels who hold your anti-government beliefs play that card. There is no greater indication of intellectual bankruptcy.

Because I'm the one who believes in our system of government as laid out by the forefathers and would like to see a return to that, without all the corrupt behavior. I'm not the one, like you, who believes we should be 'fundamentally changing America", which is an anti-government belief, i.e. 'what's written is so poor, it needs to be fixed' (apparently via socialization).

So again, you can twist and turn all you want, but the fact is, this President has indeed behaved in traitorous ways. You might agree with his illegal spying, his war(s) uncleared through Congress, his cohorts using of only a bill number and then claiming it's the same bill, but anyone with any logic at all, never mind any sort of belief in our forefathers' vision, can't go there.

The thing about the forefathers is they say y'all coming - they knew that when you give men power, they will use that to their advantage and do anything to keep it. So they went through great pains to create a system of government that puts the power in the people's hands. That progressives think it's a better idea to give the government officials MORE power, is stunning in my eyes, as it's pretty clear that our forefathers were correct about how people in power behave. And to do it, using the methods and attacks progressives use proves the forefathers correct yet again.

Yea, but even Thomas Jefferson (last I checked, he was a Founding Father) even said that the Constitution was not a perpetual document - meaning that it SHOULD be intepreted to reflect the contemporary environment.

It is interesting too that your "power" lecture fails to discuss how deregulation (less government power) negatively impacted our financial, commodities and utilities markets. Seems to me that you are ok with giving power to a few - as long as they are not in government.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Any man that continually needs to insult, accuse, and otherwise behave in such a manner can't be of great intellect. Disgusting behavior. Were my husband to treat people like this, I would probably have left.

So can you please leave this forum, then? It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to insult Jeff using his personal information while remaining anonymous.

Jeff has placed this information out there publicly a few times, including using it to make his points. There's nothing personal to be claimed when someone puts the information out there for all to see.

I asked him a question; it's interesting why you would consider that an insult.

The insult is your suggestion that I move to Russia -- a country with which neither I nor any member of my family has a connection. It is further insulting that your motive for suggesting I move is a baseless accusation that I don't support our form of government. You have absolutely no support for your accusation. To the contrary, where I have expressed disappointment with, and opposition to, specific policies of our government, you have accused all three branches of government of unconstitutional behavior. Clearly, your opposition is much stronger than mine. It is insulting that you are not capable of a better response to criticism of government policies than "love it or leave it", particularly when you are such an obvious critic yourself.

It was a question based on choice - your choice. OK, so now that we have determined your wife is from Georgia, why not go there? What is it about this country that keeps you here if you agree with the fact it needs fundamentally changing?

What is so "fundamentally changing" about wanting better health care and for the government to stop spying on or killing Americans without trial?

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Any man that continually needs to insult, accuse, and otherwise behave in such a manner can't be of great intellect. Disgusting behavior. Were my husband to treat people like this, I would probably have left.

So can you please leave this forum, then? It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to insult Jeff using his personal information while remaining anonymous.

Jeff has placed this information out there publicly a few times, including using it to make his points. There's nothing personal to be claimed when someone puts the information out there for all to see.

I asked him a question; it's interesting why you would consider that an insult.

The insult is your suggestion that I move to Russia -- a country with which neither I nor any member of my family has a connection. It is further insulting that your motive for suggesting I move is a baseless accusation that I don't support our form of government. You have absolutely no support for your accusation. To the contrary, where I have expressed disappointment with, and opposition to, specific policies of our government, you have accused all three branches of government of unconstitutional behavior. Clearly, your opposition is much stronger than mine. It is insulting that you are not capable of a better response to criticism of government policies than "love it or leave it", particularly when you are such an obvious critic yourself.

It was a question based on choice - your choice. OK, so now that we have determined your wife is from Georgia, why not go there? What is it about this country that keeps you here if you agree with the fact it needs fundamentally changing?

The greatest heroes in American history have contributed to fundamental change in this country. Your "love it or leave it" attitude, combined with your own dislike for the current President, Congress, and Supreme Court, is disgusting. You really have reached a new low.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Any man that continually needs to insult, accuse, and otherwise behave in such a manner can't be of great intellect. Disgusting behavior. Were my husband to treat people like this, I would probably have left.

So can you please leave this forum, then? It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to insult Jeff using his personal information while remaining anonymous.

Jeff has placed this information out there publicly a few times, including using it to make his points. There's nothing personal to be claimed when someone puts the information out there for all to see.

I asked him a question; it's interesting why you would consider that an insult.

The insult is your suggestion that I move to Russia -- a country with which neither I nor any member of my family has a connection. It is further insulting that your motive for suggesting I move is a baseless accusation that I don't support our form of government. You have absolutely no support for your accusation. To the contrary, where I have expressed disappointment with, and opposition to, specific policies of our government, you have accused all three branches of government of unconstitutional behavior. Clearly, your opposition is much stronger than mine. It is insulting that you are not capable of a better response to criticism of government policies than "love it or leave it", particularly when you are such an obvious critic yourself.

It was a question based on choice - your choice. OK, so now that we have determined your wife is from Georgia, why not go there? What is it about this country that keeps you here if you agree with the fact it needs fundamentally changing?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Any man that continually needs to insult, accuse, and otherwise behave in such a manner can't be of great intellect. Disgusting behavior. Were my husband to treat people like this, I would probably have left.

So can you please leave this forum, then? It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to insult Jeff using his personal information while remaining anonymous.

Jeff has placed this information out there publicly a few times, including using it to make his points. There's nothing personal to be claimed when someone puts the information out there for all to see.

I asked him a question; it's interesting why you would consider that an insult.

The insult is your suggestion that I move to Russia -- a country with which neither I nor any member of my family has a connection. It is further insulting that your motive for suggesting I move is a baseless accusation that I don't support our form of government. You have absolutely no support for your accusation. To the contrary, where I have expressed disappointment with, and opposition to, specific policies of our government, you have accused all three branches of government of unconstitutional behavior. Clearly, your opposition is much stronger than mine. It is insulting that you are not capable of a better response to criticism of government policies than "love it or leave it", particularly when you are such an obvious critic yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Any man that continually needs to insult, accuse, and otherwise behave in such a manner can't be of great intellect. Disgusting behavior. Were my husband to treat people like this, I would probably have left.

So can you please leave this forum, then? It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to insult Jeff using his personal information while remaining anonymous.

Jeff has placed this information out there publicly a few times, including using it to make his points. There's nothing personal to be claimed when someone puts the information out there for all to see.

I asked him a question; it's interesting why you would consider that an insult.