Anonymous
05/15/2013 20:17
Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:Christianity is a failure of imagination. You claim that there is some "Absolute Authority" that put in place moral laws. Yet you follow a particular book that was "revealed" to a particular set of people in a particular place at a particular time. Most people that have ever lived have probably never even encountered these particular books. So how can they be the sole source of Absolute Authority?
If you want to talk about universal truths - then I would point out that people in societies as divergent as medieval Europe, ancient greece, and modern Japan have independently reached the conclusion that the god/gods do not exist. People can independently reach the same conclusion about the truth of atheism, but two people with no contact - direct or indirect- could never develop the same religion.
To take an example - if you killed every Christian and burned every bible and religious text, that would be the end of Christianity. But if you killed every atheist and burned every atheist text, atheism would be rediscovered. Why? Because it is universal. As long as their are humans, we have only humans to fall back on for our morality - everything else is just play-acting.
The failure of your imaginative argument is that you don't understand that what you call the "book that was 'revealed'" is actually a compilation of several books that were revealed to different people over time. If the message has been revealed to different people at different times (even if always in the Middle East), then why couldn't the message be revealed once again, after the massacre of Christians you're rooting for?
You miss another key point. Philosophers and theologians have pointed out many commonalities between Christian and Buddhist values and truths. Similar messages taking different forms for different peoples kinda disproves your whole thesis.
And why pick on Christianity, BTW?
Anonymous
05/15/2013 19:42
Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you feel every person who has claimed to have a life after death/near death experience or to have seen a spirit is not telling the truth? I do mean this as a serious question. I wonder about this especially when a loved one dies. I think many of us hold on to religion because we don't want to be separated from those we love most.
I understand this fear, having lost some of my most important loved ones. But personally, it compels me to make the most of this life with those loved ones, because I believe this is all there is. This is where it counts. This is where it matters. Once it's done, it's done. There are no do-overs.
Yes, I believe those who have seen "spirits" or had a "near death experience" are either not being truthful, or are misunderstanding the chemistry of their own brains. There are studies that report a massive hormone surge as the brain dies - it's like the body's natural shutdown mechanism, to make death more bearable and pain-free. The surge of things like serotonin makes the mind do strange things, even see strange things, but it's all within our own minds. It's amazing how people's "near death experiences" reports are all conditioned to their own culture and belief system - but it make sense, because they exist only insofar as their own brain hormones condition their
Thank you for your answer. I feel like you do many days. Other days I can not let go of a belief in a God or higher power because of the sadness I feel thinking that this may be it. It is a daily struggle some days. I am envious of people who can walk away from religion or
who fully believe.
So right after I posted my thoughts on my struggle with religion I got in the car and turned on the radio. What song do you think started playing?
Imagine- by John Lennon- first time I really "heard" the words
A sign from the universe?
Beautiful song.
Truthfully as an atheist, I don't really care what others believe in their personal heart of hearts - just that they understand that their personal religion is not the burden of everyone else. You do what you want, and let others be.
I was raised in a moderately religious household - practicing, but not conservative. I didn't admit that I didn't believe in any of it, until I took some comparative religion courses in college. It was a process - from Specific Religion, to overall Deist, and then atheist. The Deism phase didn't last long, because I couldn't figure out which god to believe in - there are so many different characteristics across history - which ones are the right ones? I eventually surrendered to the fact that is just didn't make any sense to me.
That isn't to say that I understand the purpose religion has filled in a lot of people - it's kind of like a security blanket (I still have my childhood security blanket FYI). It can comfort you and make you feel safe. It can be scary to let go, but you figure out that you can survive just fine without that security blanket. I find comfort in my own control over my life. I feel safe knowing I'm in the driver's seat. I may not always know where I'm going, but there's a lot of beauty on the way. And bumps and wrong turns too, but it's ok. I'll find my way.
I'm not an atheist because I'm angry or bitter - the religious upbringing was not traumatic, and was fairly tolerant. I'm an atheist because logically, rationally, religion (which religion?) and god (which god?) just don't make any sense to me. When I finally admitted those things to myself, I felt so free. I felt open, confident, and in charge of myself. I really felt an overwhelming sense of peace.
I also know what kind of person I am - I'm kind, charitable, incredibly giving. I'm patient and tolerant, and I don't take this life for granted. When I die I may just be plant food, but it really doesn't bother me. We've all gotta go sometime, and new little people will be born as the cycle repeats.
Anonymous
05/15/2013 19:34
Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Christianity is a failure of imagination. You claim that there is some "Absolute Authority" that put in place moral laws. Yet you follow a particular book that was "revealed" to a particular set of people in a particular place at a particular time. Most people that have ever lived have probably never even encountered these particular books. So how can they be the sole source of Absolute Authority?
If you want to talk about universal truths - then I would point out that people in societies as divergent as medieval Europe, ancient greece, and modern Japan have independently reached the conclusion that the god/gods do not exist. People can independently reach the same conclusion about the truth of atheism, but two people with no contact - direct or indirect- could never develop the same religion.
To take an example - if you killed every Christian and burned every bible and religious text, that would be the end of Christianity. But if you killed every atheist and burned every atheist text, atheism would be rediscovered. Why? Because it is universal. As long as their are humans, we have only humans to fall back on for our morality - everything else is just play-acting.
If you want to talk about universal truths - then I would point out that people in societies as divergent as medieval Europe, ancient greece, and modern Japan have independently reached the conclusion that the god/gods do not exist. People can independently reach the same conclusion about the truth of atheism, but two people with no contact - direct or indirect- could never develop the same religion.
To take an example - if you killed every Christian and burned every bible and religious text, that would be the end of Christianity. But if you killed every atheist and burned every atheist text, atheism would be rediscovered. Why? Because it is universal. As long as their are humans, we have only humans to fall back on for our morality - everything else is just play-acting.
Anonymous
05/15/2013 19:14
Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Pp here- didn't mean to put my last thoughts in blue above
Anonymous
05/15/2013 19:11
Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you feel every person who has claimed to have a life after death/near death experience or to have seen a spirit is not telling the truth? I do mean this as a serious question. I wonder about this especially when a loved one dies. I think many of us hold on to religion because we don't want to be separated from those we love most.
I understand this fear, having lost some of my most important loved ones. But personally, it compels me to make the most of this life with those loved ones, because I believe this is all there is. This is where it counts. This is where it matters. Once it's done, it's done. There are no do-overs.
Yes, I believe those who have seen "spirits" or had a "near death experience" are either not being truthful, or are misunderstanding the chemistry of their own brains. There are studies that report a massive hormone surge as the brain dies - it's like the body's natural shutdown mechanism, to make death more bearable and pain-free. The surge of things like serotonin makes the mind do strange things, even see strange things, but it's all within our own minds. It's amazing how people's "near death experiences" reports are all conditioned to their own culture and belief system - but it make sense, because they exist only insofar as their own brain hormones condition their
Thank you for your answer. I feel like you do many days. Other days I can not let go of a belief in a God or higher power because of the sadness I feel thinking that this may be it. It is a daily struggle some days. I am envious of people who can walk away from religion or
who fully believe.
So right after I posted my thoughts on my struggle with religion I got in the car and turned on the radio. What song do you think started playing?
Imagine- by John Lennon- first time I really "heard" the words
A sign from the universe?
Anonymous
05/15/2013 18:58
Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
This is a great thread. Bump.
Anonymous
05/15/2013 14:33
Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
It's my job to construct meaning in the world and by making it a better place for my children and grandchildren. I do that by being kind and contributing what I can to my job and community that builds it up, rather than tears it down.
Anonymous
05/15/2013 14:29
Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you feel every person who has claimed to have a life after death/near death experience or to have seen a spirit is not telling the truth? I do mean this as a serious question. I wonder about this especially when a loved one dies. I think many of us hold on to religion because we don't want to be separated from those we love most.
I understand this fear, having lost some of my most important loved ones. But personally, it compels me to make the most of this life with those loved ones, because I believe this is all there is. This is where it counts. This is where it matters. Once it's done, it's done. There are no do-overs.
Yes, I believe those who have seen "spirits" or had a "near death experience" are either not being truthful, or are misunderstanding the chemistry of their own brains. There are studies that report a massive hormone surge as the brain dies - it's like the body's natural shutdown mechanism, to make death more bearable and pain-free. The surge of things like serotonin makes the mind do strange things, even see strange things, but it's all within our own minds. It's amazing how people's "near death experiences" reports are all conditioned to their own culture and belief system - but it make sense, because they exist only insofar as their own brain hormones condition their experiences.
Thank you for your answer. I feel like you do many days. Other days I can not let go of a belief in a God or higher power because of the sadness I feel thinking that this may be it. It is a daily struggle some days. I am envious of people who can walk away from religion or who fully believe.
Anonymous
05/15/2013 14:26
Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
I just read the two links, one about the atheist who converted and the other about the argument from conscience. Both fail.
The atheist's conversion starts with her premise that there is a universal objective morality outside of humans. She agrees that most other atheists think this is a weird idea for an atheist to have, and that she was already translating catholic apologist arguments to justify it. Bizarrely, when she finally admits that she's a theist and not an atheist, she decides that Catholicism is the right religion for her. But even if you grant that she logically found god in her belief system, there is no reason why she would jump to believing in Jesus other than that she likes the brand of cognitive dissonance its philosophers have had over the years.
The "argument from conscious" takes rhetorical leaps that are even more astounding. Essentially it goes like this: (1) most everyone will admit they have a conscience and that they should follow it. (2) the conscience has to come from somewhere. (3) It's either from something less than man, from man, something more than man, or god. (4) The first three are unworkable, therefore god.
The logical break happens between step one and step 2. While people will admit they have a conscience, the argument presupposes that, like the atheist, the conscience has some connection to a universal truth and isn't some combination of man's logic, evolutionary impulses, and societal learning.
It simple to disprove the premise: 20 years ago, a great majority of this country would have agreed that homosexual sex is immoral, and that gay marriage was doubly immoral. Now, a majority of the country believes that gay marriage should be allowed. It's clear that those who object now (or did in the past) to gay marriage did so on a moral basis. They think gay sex is some kind of crime against nature. All of those people had a conscience and their conscience informed their opinion that gay sex is immoral.
The majority of people who now think gay sex is not immoral also have a conscience. But if the conscience were a divinely-given, external source of morality this would not be possible.
I suppose you could argue that God always approved of gay sex and that we're just now realizing it, or alternatively that people who approve of gay sex are ignoring their conscience or lying about it, but that means our conscience is not what the argument from conscience says it is--absolute divine authority over right and wrong.
The atheist's conversion starts with her premise that there is a universal objective morality outside of humans. She agrees that most other atheists think this is a weird idea for an atheist to have, and that she was already translating catholic apologist arguments to justify it. Bizarrely, when she finally admits that she's a theist and not an atheist, she decides that Catholicism is the right religion for her. But even if you grant that she logically found god in her belief system, there is no reason why she would jump to believing in Jesus other than that she likes the brand of cognitive dissonance its philosophers have had over the years.
The "argument from conscious" takes rhetorical leaps that are even more astounding. Essentially it goes like this: (1) most everyone will admit they have a conscience and that they should follow it. (2) the conscience has to come from somewhere. (3) It's either from something less than man, from man, something more than man, or god. (4) The first three are unworkable, therefore god.
The logical break happens between step one and step 2. While people will admit they have a conscience, the argument presupposes that, like the atheist, the conscience has some connection to a universal truth and isn't some combination of man's logic, evolutionary impulses, and societal learning.
It simple to disprove the premise: 20 years ago, a great majority of this country would have agreed that homosexual sex is immoral, and that gay marriage was doubly immoral. Now, a majority of the country believes that gay marriage should be allowed. It's clear that those who object now (or did in the past) to gay marriage did so on a moral basis. They think gay sex is some kind of crime against nature. All of those people had a conscience and their conscience informed their opinion that gay sex is immoral.
The majority of people who now think gay sex is not immoral also have a conscience. But if the conscience were a divinely-given, external source of morality this would not be possible.
I suppose you could argue that God always approved of gay sex and that we're just now realizing it, or alternatively that people who approve of gay sex are ignoring their conscience or lying about it, but that means our conscience is not what the argument from conscience says it is--absolute divine authority over right and wrong.
Anonymous
05/15/2013 13:56
Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Wow, this is a LONG thread and I haven't read the whole thing.
I'm an atheist who was losely raised as a Catholic (i.e. my Catholic non-believing parents felt guilty raising me as nothing so chose Catholocism but it was always clear their hearts weren't in it).
I would say that I follow the "do unto others" code and frankly lots of other moral codes that are found in religious teachings but to me, don't have a religious backing: thou shalt not steal. But, I've also incorporated LOTS AND LOTS of Buddhism into the way I live my life, think about humanity, etc. I know for a fact that I'm in the upper 90% of all the people I know in terms of my morality, despite my lack of belief in a god or religion. I don't think one is linked to the other as often as most people think.
I'm an atheist who was losely raised as a Catholic (i.e. my Catholic non-believing parents felt guilty raising me as nothing so chose Catholocism but it was always clear their hearts weren't in it).
I would say that I follow the "do unto others" code and frankly lots of other moral codes that are found in religious teachings but to me, don't have a religious backing: thou shalt not steal. But, I've also incorporated LOTS AND LOTS of Buddhism into the way I live my life, think about humanity, etc. I know for a fact that I'm in the upper 90% of all the people I know in terms of my morality, despite my lack of belief in a god or religion. I don't think one is linked to the other as often as most people think.
Anonymous
05/15/2013 13:48
Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Can we clip the quotes? Page after page of 90% quotes makes me crazy.
Anonymous
05/15/2013 13:38
Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
A question about miracles for those of you that are religious:
When it comes to miracles or "proof" in other religions, what do you think of those?
Do you think there's validity to them? Or entirely made up?
Do you see how others (atheists, people of other religions) view your miracles as made up or exaggerated? All religions have miracles and internal proof - so what makes your proof or miracle more believable or right?
When it comes to miracles or "proof" in other religions, what do you think of those?
Do you think there's validity to them? Or entirely made up?
Do you see how others (atheists, people of other religions) view your miracles as made up or exaggerated? All religions have miracles and internal proof - so what makes your proof or miracle more believable or right?
Anonymous
05/15/2013 13:25
Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:What governs how I live my life? I don't need any external governance ... I have an internal understanding of right and wrong. Almost everybody does.
New poster. Not being snarky- where do you think that internal understanding comes from? I am far, far, far from the conservative Christian Right. But I have come to believe that we were provided this moral compass by a creator. It is when we act outside this internal sence of conscience that conflict occurs.
I disagree. I can't speak for others, but I was provided a moral compass by my parents. They ingrained it in me through words and teaching, and also observation of how they lived their lives. I know right from wrong, just as surely as do the ultra religious.
I was raised Christian, and am not an avowed atheist, so I suppose that this question isn't directed at me, but I'd probably characterize myself as an agnostic now.
Anonymous
05/15/2013 13:21
Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:
Why do you think that religion/faith/belief in God is a superior way in which to know God's word, when religion and humans have gotten it wrong so many times before?
I don't believe that at all.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ok so why are you bothering with this thread? This thread is about, How can an atheist possibly have a moral compass???? Oh atheists, where or where can you possibly be obtaining moral guidance!!! Please help us understand! How can you possibly not eat little children in your big black cauldrons if you don't listen to Jesus???
Wow...wrong. The question was what GOVERNS how atheists live their lives. I'm the OP and I was curious if morals would be the answer.
Anonymous
05/15/2013 13:20
Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:
Why do you think that religion/faith/belief in God is a superior way in which to know God's word, when religion and humans have gotten it wrong so many times before?
I don't believe that at all.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ok so why are you bothering with this thread? This thread is about, How can an atheist possibly have a moral compass???? Oh atheists, where or where can you possibly be obtaining moral guidance!!! Please help us understand! How can you possibly not eat little children in your big black cauldrons if you don't listen to Jesus???
Speak for yourself, I'm eating children right now!
It's crazy up in this atheist house!