Anonymous wrote:I'm waiting for 2008 Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman™ to pop up and tell us how wrong we all still are and promote his substack newsletter.

#PaulKrugman
Is Europe in Economic Decline?
Interrogating the conventional wisdom that Europe is lagging America
Does Europe have a lower standard of living than the U.S?

When comparing the economic performance of various countries, economists often begin with measures of gross domestic product (GDP) per capita at purchasing power parity. GDP is the total value of goods and services produced in a country, and GDP per capita is a relevant measure of the country’s overall standard of living. “Purchasing power parity” (PPP) corrects for differences in national price levels, which is especially important because fluctuations in exchange rates between currencies, such as the relative values of the dollar and the euro, can cause temporary fluctuations in measured GDP that have nothing to do with underlying economic performance.

Here is PPP GDP per capita in the three big European Union economies as a percentage of the United States over the past 25 years:
Chart 1

European economies do produce less per person than the U.S. does. Indeed, as many observers have pointed out, France and Italy have GDP per capita comparable to poor U.S. states like Alabama:
Chart 2

But let’s step back for a moment and ask: how reasonable is it to compare the economic performance of France, and Europe in general, with the poorest states in America?

Let’s start with impressions: France definitely doesn’t look or feel as poor as Alabama or Mississippi. Granted, subjective impressions are no substitute for hard data. But the “walking around test” isn’t worthless, either. If the look and feel of an economy don’t match up with the story told by standard numbers, that’s at least a gut check, a reason to look for the sources of the dissonance.

More substantively, nonmonetary comparisons between Europe and the United States are unlike the usual comparisons when one stacks poor nations against a richer country. Consider the following items:

· Globally, rich nations normally have higher life expectancy than poor nations. But life expectancy in France is 4.7 years higher than in the United States — and 9 years higher than in Alabama

· The overall US literacy rate is well below rates in other wealthy nations, and far below levels in Europe

· While the US and China dominate most information technology industries, with Europe a distant third — more on that later — access to and use of IT are basically comparable in the US and Europe

Understand that I’m not saying that the GDP numbers are wrong. What I am saying, however, is that the story “Europe is poor” is misleading.

A clearly important issue that is not captured by GDP per capita comparisons is income inequality, which is much higher in the US than in Europe. It is arithmetically inescapable that the high share of US income going to the top 1 percent and the top 10 percent renders most Americans worse off than the overall high level of GDP per capita would indicate.

However, quantifying this effect is, to be frank, a statistical can of worms, especially because some important goods and services — notably health care — are mainly government-provided in Europe while a significant share is privately-provided in the United States. My colleagues at the Stone Center on Socio-Economic Inequality, who are experts on the topic of income inequality, are not convinced by some widely cited analyses of this issue. So for now, I will simply assert that the role of income inequality in underestimating the performance of Europe versus the US is an important component, but one to which I can’t put exact numbers.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

Have you ever lived in Europe? Do you have European friends?

I have more money and investments that provide me freedom
A larger, nicer home with less mortgage debt
More space
A safer, new vehicle
More disposable income

Go do some research on effective tax rates and various metrics so you can see how much less you pay in taxes when considering things like state taxes, VAT etc.

NP but I have lived in Europe, and it was a better and more fulfilling lifestyle in every possible way.

We made half the salary there than we do now in the US. We lived in an ~1500 sqft apartment in a major city, versus our very nice 3000+ sqft house in the US suburbs. We had one older vehicle there, two larger, newer vehicles here. (We rarely had to use our car there, we are slaves to our vehicles here.) We have lots of space here, sure. But we had lots of things to do there, people to see, places to go, all within a very close proximity (i.e. walking/biking distance).

I would go back in a heartbeat were it not for family obligations that pulled me back to the US. Our lifestyle is great by American standards; but American standards are sorely lacking, IMO.

I'd love the European lifestyle with a comfortable flat in a central urban location and offices and amenities all within easy reach either on foot or short public transportation ride away. I'd love to live in central Munich or Copenhagen. But that's not how most Europeans live. The average European lives in a small, often tiny, apartment in an outer (cheaper) suburb or a modest townhouse, long commutes to work on public transportation, which can and often does break down or has delays, cars are very popular in Europe for same reasons as in the US. Let's not confuse the European UMC lifestyle with the everyday, predominately working class, lifestyle. It's not bad, I'm not implying it at all, there are absolutely virtues to the typical European social contract, but it's a lot more nuanced than a brief experience of living the affluent urban lifestyle in Paris may tell you.

Yes. My brother and sil, who both have good jobs, live in a crappy cheaper city adjacent to a nicer city. It was where they could afford to buy at all, and now 10 years later they could not even afford it. There are gangs and drugs, increasingly so, and even gun fights. Public transportation is very good, but not that convenient to their specific workplace in a different area of the nice city. My brother bikes to work, not a scenic route: just busy roads and pollution and gray skies a lot of the year. And my sil often needs her car to drive to various job sites. If you can afford to live in the center area of the nice city? A total dream, amazing lifestyle. But it's where richer people live, or old people who bought ages ago. Americans have an idealistic view because they do not see how actual people live.

“The wages are higher in the U.S. but the quality of life is higher in Europe. “The new American dream, for some of its citizens, is to no longer live there,” it concludes.”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

Have you ever lived in Europe? Do you have European friends?

I have more money and investments that provide me freedom
A larger, nicer home with less mortgage debt
More space
A safer, new vehicle
More disposable income

Go do some research on effective tax rates and various metrics so you can see how much less you pay in taxes when considering things like state taxes, VAT etc.

NP but I have lived in Europe, and it was a better and more fulfilling lifestyle in every possible way.

We made half the salary there than we do now in the US. We lived in an ~1500 sqft apartment in a major city, versus our very nice 3000+ sqft house in the US suburbs. We had one older vehicle there, two larger, newer vehicles here. (We rarely had to use our car there, we are slaves to our vehicles here.) We have lots of space here, sure. But we had lots of things to do there, people to see, places to go, all within a very close proximity (i.e. walking/biking distance).

I would go back in a heartbeat were it not for family obligations that pulled me back to the US. Our lifestyle is great by American standards; but American standards are sorely lacking, IMO.

I'd love the European lifestyle with a comfortable flat in a central urban location and offices and amenities all within easy reach either on foot or short public transportation ride away. I'd love to live in central Munich or Copenhagen. But that's not how most Europeans live. The average European lives in a small, often tiny, apartment in an outer (cheaper) suburb or a modest townhouse, long commutes to work on public transportation, which can and often does break down or has delays, cars are very popular in Europe for same reasons as in the US. Let's not confuse the European UMC lifestyle with the everyday, predominately working class, lifestyle. It's not bad, I'm not implying it at all, there are absolutely virtues to the typical European social contract, but it's a lot more nuanced than a brief experience of living the affluent urban lifestyle in Paris may tell you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

Have you ever lived in Europe? Do you have European friends?

I have more money and investments that provide me freedom
A larger, nicer home with less mortgage debt
More space
A safer, new vehicle
More disposable income

Go do some research on effective tax rates and various metrics so you can see how much less you pay in taxes when considering things like state taxes, VAT etc.

NP but I have lived in Europe, and it was a better and more fulfilling lifestyle in every possible way.

We made half the salary there than we do now in the US. We lived in an ~1500 sqft apartment in a major city, versus our very nice 3000+ sqft house in the US suburbs. We had one older vehicle there, two larger, newer vehicles here. (We rarely had to use our car there, we are slaves to our vehicles here.) We have lots of space here, sure. But we had lots of things to do there, people to see, places to go, all within a very close proximity (i.e. walking/biking distance).

I would go back in a heartbeat were it not for family obligations that pulled me back to the US. Our lifestyle is great by American standards; but American standards are sorely lacking, IMO.

I'd love the European lifestyle with a comfortable flat in a central urban location and offices and amenities all within easy reach either on foot or short public transportation ride away. I'd love to live in central Munich or Copenhagen. But that's not how most Europeans live. The average European lives in a small, often tiny, apartment in an outer (cheaper) suburb or a modest townhouse, long commutes to work on public transportation, which can and often does break down or has delays, cars are very popular in Europe for same reasons as in the US. Let's not confuse the European UMC lifestyle with the everyday, predominately working class, lifestyle. It's not bad, I'm not implying it at all, there are absolutely virtues to the typical European social contract, but it's a lot more nuanced than a brief experience of living the affluent urban lifestyle in Paris may tell you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

Have you ever lived in Europe? Do you have European friends?

I have more money and investments that provide me freedom
A larger, nicer home with less mortgage debt
More space
A safer, new vehicle
More disposable income

Go do some research on effective tax rates and various metrics so you can see how much less you pay in taxes when considering things like state taxes, VAT etc.

NP but I have lived in Europe, and it was a better and more fulfilling lifestyle in every possible way.

We made half the salary there than we do now in the US. We lived in an ~1500 sqft apartment in a major city, versus our very nice 3000+ sqft house in the US suburbs. We had one older vehicle there, two larger, newer vehicles here. (We rarely had to use our car there, we are slaves to our vehicles here.) We have lots of space here, sure. But we had lots of things to do there, people to see, places to go, all within a very close proximity (i.e. walking/biking distance).

I would go back in a heartbeat were it not for family obligations that pulled me back to the US. Our lifestyle is great by American standards; but American standards are sorely lacking, IMO.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The UK and Europe with a few exceptions learned too late what unfettered immigration had done to their economic and social well being. The tide toward nationalism is rising and eventually economic recovery will follow.

The US was fortunate to put an end to open borders before a final tipping point was reached. But it will take time and expense to right the ship.

The UK is an intriguing tale. 30 years of mass migration, virtually unrestrained, major population growth, but the average Brit is effectively poorer than they were in the 1990s. Especially when factoring in much higher housing costs due to housing shortages on top of terrible salary growth.

So you’re blaming immigration for the UK’s economic woes rather than the impact of the global financial crisis and Brexit?

Did you know that the UK’s population increased by 20% in 30 years while Australia’s increased by 50%? And Australia has gotten wealthier. Make of that what you will.

NP- Apples and oranges. You're comparing a country 30+ times the size of the UK with 42 million fewer people...

Huh? I’m a little confused. I’m comparing the UK and Australia.

Yes, exactly. Australia is 30 times larger than the UK and has 42 mil fewer people than the UK. These are not figures you can compare in the way you are trying to.

What has that got to do with anything?

It's very different when having national health care for a population of 330 million versus 30 million or whatever it is in Australia. The scale is hugely different. It should work in our favor for certain things like prescription drugs and economies of scale, but at the same time watching EU countries and experiencing their health systems, the bigger the country, the "worse" the care.

Having experienced first hand healthcare in different first world countries, the US approach is extremely generous, it's over the top, when you get down to it, which is probably one factor for why it is also so expensive compared to other countries, it's because we also do a lot more in terms of treatment and care. But it can be excessive. NHS in the UK is much more bare bones and rationed. I have Kaiser HMO after years of PPO plans with BlueCross or Cigna that were considered excellent plans, and the NHS, and will say the most efficient and balanced healthcare of all was with Kaiser's HMO. Most people do not need PPO plans. Most Americans would not be happy with NHS after familiarity with their PPO or HMOs.

What people are also doing is conflicting quality of US healthcare with health metrics, the two are not the same. Worse health metrics in the US is not due to the quality of healthcare, which is excellent in most places, but lifestyle factors like obesity and poor diet.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The UK and Europe with a few exceptions learned too late what unfettered immigration had done to their economic and social well being. The tide toward nationalism is rising and eventually economic recovery will follow.

The US was fortunate to put an end to open borders before a final tipping point was reached. But it will take time and expense to right the ship.

The UK is an intriguing tale. 30 years of mass migration, virtually unrestrained, major population growth, but the average Brit is effectively poorer than they were in the 1990s. Especially when factoring in much higher housing costs due to housing shortages on top of terrible salary growth.

So you’re blaming immigration for the UK’s economic woes rather than the impact of the global financial crisis and Brexit?

Did you know that the UK’s population increased by 20% in 30 years while Australia’s increased by 50%? And Australia has gotten wealthier. Make of that what you will.

NP- Apples and oranges. You're comparing a country 30+ times the size of the UK with 42 million fewer people...

Huh? I’m a little confused. I’m comparing the UK and Australia.

Yes, exactly. Australia is 30 times larger than the UK and has 42 mil fewer people than the UK. These are not figures you can compare in the way you are trying to.

What has that got to do with anything?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

Have you ever lived in Europe? Do you have European friends?

I have more money and investments that provide me freedom
A larger, nicer home with less mortgage debt
More space
A safer, new vehicle
More disposable income

Go do some research on effective tax rates and various metrics so you can see how much less you pay in taxes when considering things like state taxes, VAT etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The UK and Europe with a few exceptions learned too late what unfettered immigration had done to their economic and social well being. The tide toward nationalism is rising and eventually economic recovery will follow.

The US was fortunate to put an end to open borders before a final tipping point was reached. But it will take time and expense to right the ship.

The UK is an intriguing tale. 30 years of mass migration, virtually unrestrained, major population growth, but the average Brit is effectively poorer than they were in the 1990s. Especially when factoring in much higher housing costs due to housing shortages on top of terrible salary growth.

So you’re blaming immigration for the UK’s economic woes rather than the impact of the global financial crisis and Brexit?

Did you know that the UK’s population increased by 20% in 30 years while Australia’s increased by 50%? And Australia has gotten wealthier. Make of that what you will.

NP- Apples and oranges. You're comparing a country 30+ times the size of the UK with 42 million fewer people...

Huh? I’m a little confused. I’m comparing the UK and Australia.

Yes, exactly. Australia is 30 times larger than the UK and has 42 mil fewer people than the UK. These are not figures you can compare in the way you are trying to.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The UK and Europe with a few exceptions learned too late what unfettered immigration had done to their economic and social well being. The tide toward nationalism is rising and eventually economic recovery will follow.

The US was fortunate to put an end to open borders before a final tipping point was reached. But it will take time and expense to right the ship.

The UK is an intriguing tale. 30 years of mass migration, virtually unrestrained, major population growth, but the average Brit is effectively poorer than they were in the 1990s. Especially when factoring in much higher housing costs due to housing shortages on top of terrible salary growth.

So you’re blaming immigration for the UK’s economic woes rather than the impact of the global financial crisis and Brexit?

Did you know that the UK’s population increased by 20% in 30 years while Australia’s increased by 50%? And Australia has gotten wealthier. Make of that what you will.

NP- Apples and oranges. You're comparing a country 30+ times the size of the UK with 42 million fewer people...

Huh? I’m a little confused. I’m comparing the UK and Australia.

Yes, exactly. Australia is 30 times larger than the UK and has 42 mil fewer people than the UK. These are not figures you can compare in the way you are trying to.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The UK and Europe with a few exceptions learned too late what unfettered immigration had done to their economic and social well being. The tide toward nationalism is rising and eventually economic recovery will follow.

The US was fortunate to put an end to open borders before a final tipping point was reached. But it will take time and expense to right the ship.

The UK is an intriguing tale. 30 years of mass migration, virtually unrestrained, major population growth, but the average Brit is effectively poorer than they were in the 1990s. Especially when factoring in much higher housing costs due to housing shortages on top of terrible salary growth.

So you’re blaming immigration for the UK’s economic woes rather than the impact of the global financial crisis and Brexit?

Did you know that the UK’s population increased by 20% in 30 years while Australia’s increased by 50%? And Australia has gotten wealthier. Make of that what you will.

And they all have universal healthcare and better food than the US.