Anonymous wrote:This isn’t really about homeless people using the libraries. I have zero issue with an undisruptive homeless person coming to use the library like a library. The issue is homeless people who make this public amenity unusable or significantly worse for other members of the public. libraries are not homeless day centers. Nobody should be allowed to sleep in the library, have an offensive smell, threaten others, be visibly drunk or high, look at porn, or otherwise treat it like a hotel.

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Anonymous wrote:Why does everyone keep saying that libraries are for the poor or working class? I'm rich AF and I use the library all the time. I read way too much to buy all the books I consume--since I don't re-read, it would be so wasteful.

Who said that. I did say that the poor and homeless belong there just as much as you do.

Accessing the library computer might be their only way of communicating with their family or accessing any support service they need.

If that’s what they are doing, yes. Sleeping in the vestibule is not a proper use of the library.

So where would you advise one to go sleep? Seriously, pretend you entered the library and are authorized to look them in the face and inform them that sleeping in the vestibule is not a proper use of the library. Then the person looks at you and says, "I don't have anywhere else to go or anyone who cares about me to call. And it's so cold outside. The shelter makes us leave in the morning and be outside all day, but I'm freezing and tired and I know I look bad and don't smell good and nobody wants to be around me. Where should I go right now, lady?" What would you say?

Not the one you’re responding to, but I am very sure that a lot of these posters would have zero problem if these homeless people would just freeze to death so they don’t have to see them and smell them.

This x 1 million. Anywhere but here. Out of sight, out of mind to these people. It’s so uncomfortable to be reminded of the vast inequality in this country. And even more so to have to explain it to little Jimmy or Susie.

Oh brother, people are still pushing the inequality nonsense? Most DC transplants lack the mental fortitude to explain substance abuse, mental health and why its "good" to let people live on the streets so long as you give them a few bucks a few times a year.

Hey, DC native, since you’re so smart, what have you done personally to help the situation?

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Anonymous wrote:I’m surprised to learn that homeless people have finally entered NW DC. The rest of us have been dealing with this issue for decades.

There have been homeless in upper NW and particularly in tenley and other neighborhoods for decades. I don't know what plane the OP rode in on, but this isn't new.

OP here -

I’ve actually been to so many libraries and lived in the city for almost 20 years.

What I said was that not many libraries have the setup that has a large vestibule that you enter that is large enough for people to sleep/stay and provides benches for no other reason than to loiter.

Cleveland Park has a normal small vestibule. As does Chevy Chase. Georgetown as well.

I, too, am a liberal. And I wish we had all the answers to help all the people. But the reality is we don’t but the answer shouldn’t be making families - or anyone really - endure the various behaviors and experiences I have seen and others have experienced as noted above.

I couldn’t allow my child to go to the Tenleytown library alone as I’d like to do living In a neighborhood with a library walking distance. I am too afraid of what she would see/experience and how they would handle it on her own. In most scenarios they would be defenseless and have no idea what to do if one of the individuals was having a mental episode or a medical emergency or if they even just tried to approach her. It could easily be a traumatic event.

And to those asking why I don’t visit other libraries to see how bad it is other places, I don’t think the social solution is admonish fears because it’s the same in other places. I don’t think it should be tolerated anywhere. But again, the Tenley library has a unique set up.

I was driving by yesterday and there were paramedics inside the vestibule. It’s not ok the level of trauma that a child could experience.

Is it okay the level of trauma the homeless are experiencing? It's not all about your child, OP.

Good grief, you're dense. Sorry if the sane among us don't want our kids to be exposed to men leering at them or masturbating in front of them. Feel free to bring your own kids there, not that you ever have before.
DP

OP did not mention leering or masturbating.

I’ve already posted than my child and I spent extensive time in various libraries and have never encountered anyone maturbating. Pp and others have to make up stuff to justify their hate. The facts are not on their side so they lie.

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Anonymous wrote:Why does everyone keep saying that libraries are for the poor or working class? I'm rich AF and I use the library all the time. I read way too much to buy all the books I consume--since I don't re-read, it would be so wasteful.

Who said that. I did say that the poor and homeless belong there just as much as you do.

Accessing the library computer might be their only way of communicating with their family or accessing any support service they need.

If that’s what they are doing, yes. Sleeping in the vestibule is not a proper use of the library.

So where would you advise one to go sleep? Seriously, pretend you entered the library and are authorized to look them in the face and inform them that sleeping in the vestibule is not a proper use of the library. Then the person looks at you and says, "I don't have anywhere else to go or anyone who cares about me to call. And it's so cold outside. The shelter makes us leave in the morning and be outside all day, but I'm freezing and tired and I know I look bad and don't smell good and nobody wants to be around me. Where should I go right now, lady?" What would you say?

Not the one you’re responding to, but I am very sure that a lot of these posters would have zero problem if these homeless people would just freeze to death so they don’t have to see them and smell them.

This x 1 million. Anywhere but here. Out of sight, out of mind to these people. It’s so uncomfortable to be reminded of the vast inequality in this country. And even more so to have to explain it to little Jimmy or Susie.

Oh brother, people are still pushing the inequality nonsense? Most DC transplants lack the mental fortitude to explain substance abuse, mental health and why its "good" to let people live on the streets so long as you give them a few bucks a few times a year.

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Anonymous wrote:I’m surprised to learn that homeless people have finally entered NW DC. The rest of us have been dealing with this issue for decades.

There have been homeless in upper NW and particularly in tenley and other neighborhoods for decades. I don't know what plane the OP rode in on, but this isn't new.

OP here -

I’ve actually been to so many libraries and lived in the city for almost 20 years.

What I said was that not many libraries have the setup that has a large vestibule that you enter that is large enough for people to sleep/stay and provides benches for no other reason than to loiter.

Cleveland Park has a normal small vestibule. As does Chevy Chase. Georgetown as well.

I, too, am a liberal. And I wish we had all the answers to help all the people. But the reality is we don’t but the answer shouldn’t be making families - or anyone really - endure the various behaviors and experiences I have seen and others have experienced as noted above.

I couldn’t allow my child to go to the Tenleytown library alone as I’d like to do living In a neighborhood with a library walking distance. I am too afraid of what she would see/experience and how they would handle it on her own. In most scenarios they would be defenseless and have no idea what to do if one of the individuals was having a mental episode or a medical emergency or if they even just tried to approach her. It could easily be a traumatic event.

And to those asking why I don’t visit other libraries to see how bad it is other places, I don’t think the social solution is admonish fears because it’s the same in other places. I don’t think it should be tolerated anywhere. But again, the Tenley library has a unique set up.

I was driving by yesterday and there were paramedics inside the vestibule. It’s not ok the level of trauma that a child could experience.

Is it okay the level of trauma the homeless are experiencing? It's not all about your child, OP.

Good grief, you're dense. Sorry if the sane among us don't want our kids to be exposed to men leering at them or masturbating in front of them. Feel free to bring your own kids there, not that you ever have before.
DP

OP did not mention leering or masturbating.

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Anonymous wrote:Why does everyone keep saying that libraries are for the poor or working class? I'm rich AF and I use the library all the time. I read way too much to buy all the books I consume--since I don't re-read, it would be so wasteful.

Who said that. I did say that the poor and homeless belong there just as much as you do.

Accessing the library computer might be their only way of communicating with their family or accessing any support service they need.

If that’s what they are doing, yes. Sleeping in the vestibule is not a proper use of the library.

So where would you advise one to go sleep? Seriously, pretend you entered the library and are authorized to look them in the face and inform them that sleeping in the vestibule is not a proper use of the library. Then the person looks at you and says, "I don't have anywhere else to go or anyone who cares about me to call. And it's so cold outside. The shelter makes us leave in the morning and be outside all day, but I'm freezing and tired and I know I look bad and don't smell good and nobody wants to be around me. Where should I go right now, lady?" What would you say?

They need to be institutionalized, its really that simple. Find some cheap land a few hours outside the city, and if you can't take care of yourself you go there and get whatever mental/substance treatment you need. It ends up being a lot cheaper this way too, rather than having to deal with the homeless separately in every single venue.

Being a public nuisance should never be an option.

Other than whining about having to encounter the homeless, what are you doing to help them?

Not enabling their disfunction is doing more for them, the city and everyone who likes nice things than any of you serial-enablers do. Go give them more money, more food, turn another blind eye to their public defecation, and watch their numbers grow. I'm sure it will make you feel good, until you reach your breaking-point and retreat to a car-dependant suburban cul-de-sac which is the natural life-cycle of the self-righteous transplant. That is for the one's that don't just straight out move back to Ohio.

Anonymous wrote:Instead of disparaging these unfortunate people, you could’ve helped them.

I’m sure you have a guest bathroom and can afford basic grooming supplies if you live in upper NW? How about offering them the use of your bathroom and laundry to clean themselves up? Do you think they enjoy not bathing?

As a mother, you should really be ashamed of the example you’re setting for your children. Instead of teaching them compassion for the less fortunate, you’re teaching them to fear them. That’s seriously vile and gross.

You really are a bad person.

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Anonymous wrote:There are many day centers in DC for homeless people. Libraries should not be de facto homeless day centers.

https://dhs.dc.gov/page/day-services-centers

Sure, sure. And when they are full and these people get turned away or don’t have the means to get to the shelter, what then?

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Anonymous wrote:As the child of immigrant parents who did not speak English and worked long hours, the public library was my refuge. I spent countless afternoons there reading, studying, doing my homework, and talking to librarians about books and newspapers. It was safe, clean, and welcoming place. That experience no longer exists for many children today, and its loss is a profound social failure.

Public libraries have been radically transformed, not by accident but by deliberate policy choices that elevate the demands of the severely mentally ill, drug-addicted, and chronically homeless over the rights of the working class, poor families, students, and children who rely on libraries the most. This is not a rant about people down on their luck. It is about repeated, unchecked behavior that would be unacceptable anywhere else: aggressive public ranting, overwhelming filth and odor, public nudity, people soiling themselves and then occupying furniture that others will later use, harassment of minors, and the routine conversion of restrooms into makeshift bathing, laundry facilities, and places to inject drugs. These conditions are continually tolerated while staff stand by powerless or unwilling to act.

The result is that law-abiding patrons are effectively displaced from a public institution. No one can concentrate and people do not feel safe. Students are driven away from one of the few remaining free spaces for learning. When libraries become hostile or frightening environments, it is the poorest and most vulnerable law-abiding users who pay the price.

Defenders of this status quo often cloak themselves in the language of compassion. Librarians and outside advocates dismiss legitimate concerns as intolerance. This is not empathy; it is abdication. Compassion does not require sacrificing standards of hygiene, safety, or basic decency, nor does it require turning libraries into de facto homeless shelters or psychiatric wards.

It is a travesty that today, those who disrupt, intimidate, and degrade public spaces are afforded more practical rights than children trying to do homework, immigrants trying to learn English, or students trying to escape chaos at home. When libraries abandon standards, they do not become more inclusive they become unusable. And society is immeasurably poorer for it.

I agree. The city provides shelters and many of the unhoused decline to use them...so they can take over and render unusable any space they want, to the detriment of a much greater number of others? That makes no sense and is also a waste of taxpayer funds. Re the Tenleytown library, I've also stopped using the compost collection station on that corner because of the harassment I've experienced each time I've gone.

You are not better or more important than the smelly homeless person. There is nothing wrong with them sitting there in the warm. The library is just as much for them as it is for you.

DP. The library is open to the public, true. But there are reasonable expectations of good hygiene and socially acceptable behavior at play, too. The PPP beautifully lays all of this out in her post, which you clearly ignore because you have no actual rebuttal and deep down, you know she's correct. Public libraries are for ALL of us, to include women and children - the very same people who are constantly harassed by mentally ill homeless people. But it's clear you couldn't care less about all of those other people who are now unable to use the library as it was intended.

The poster who thinks anyone in an any condition should be able to be in the library apparently does not care about children's safety.

+1 The kind of person who thinks everyone is free to do whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want -- rights with no rules or obligations to others.

Stop twisting my words and making stuff up. That is not what I said. I DID say that the homeless have every right to be in public spaces, just like OP and just like you. If they are sitting there trying to stay warm, there is NOTHING wrong with that. I never said they are allowed to do whatever they want. If you are bothered by the smell, check the books out and take them home, princess. I'd much rather that, than the homeless freeze to death.

PP here. I've said before I'm not bothered by the smell. I AM concerned about those who are using drugs and alcohol (which many of them do) and the safety of children (which also should concern you, princess). I'm not twisting words. You're the one who thinks anyone has the right to hang out in any public space. Do you live in San Franciaco?

And again, we are responding to OP's ridiculous whining about the smell. Not drugs or violence. If that actually happened, she would have received sympathy. Instead, she is whining that she got a whiff of a homeless person. Details matter, princess.

Princess, perhaps you haven't worked with the homeless and don't realize the reasons for their being homeless. It's not just a smell. It's usually severe mental illness and/or addiction issues. There's a safety issue for children. You can quit pretending otherwise.

Then start your own thread about those issues. In this one, none of that was mentioned. It was just the smell.

DP. Wrong. The OP mentioned the smell - which I agree, is horrific - and also these:

"the offensive smell and condition in the vestibule from a few homeless individuals that were camping out on the benches.
One of the individuals was also acting in a concerning way that made me question mental stability."

In short, the OP was far more polite in her assessment than I would have been. The library reeks of shit, alcohol, and unwashed bodies. And the behavior of many of these homeless people is something that should never be allowed in the general public, much less among children.

Frankly children often reek of shit and unwashed bodies. They’re quite dirty little things, I’ve never met one that smells like strawberries and cream.

Most children aren't drunk, high, and masturbating in a corner.

Neither were the homeless people in OP's post.

Most are just clean, sober, mentally stable folks, right?

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Anonymous wrote:As the child of immigrant parents who did not speak English and worked long hours, the public library was my refuge. I spent countless afternoons there reading, studying, doing my homework, and talking to librarians about books and newspapers. It was safe, clean, and welcoming place. That experience no longer exists for many children today, and its loss is a profound social failure.

Public libraries have been radically transformed, not by accident but by deliberate policy choices that elevate the demands of the severely mentally ill, drug-addicted, and chronically homeless over the rights of the working class, poor families, students, and children who rely on libraries the most. This is not a rant about people down on their luck. It is about repeated, unchecked behavior that would be unacceptable anywhere else: aggressive public ranting, overwhelming filth and odor, public nudity, people soiling themselves and then occupying furniture that others will later use, harassment of minors, and the routine conversion of restrooms into makeshift bathing, laundry facilities, and places to inject drugs. These conditions are continually tolerated while staff stand by powerless or unwilling to act.

The result is that law-abiding patrons are effectively displaced from a public institution. No one can concentrate and people do not feel safe. Students are driven away from one of the few remaining free spaces for learning. When libraries become hostile or frightening environments, it is the poorest and most vulnerable law-abiding users who pay the price.

Defenders of this status quo often cloak themselves in the language of compassion. Librarians and outside advocates dismiss legitimate concerns as intolerance. This is not empathy; it is abdication. Compassion does not require sacrificing standards of hygiene, safety, or basic decency, nor does it require turning libraries into de facto homeless shelters or psychiatric wards.

It is a travesty that today, those who disrupt, intimidate, and degrade public spaces are afforded more practical rights than children trying to do homework, immigrants trying to learn English, or students trying to escape chaos at home. When libraries abandon standards, they do not become more inclusive they become unusable. And society is immeasurably poorer for it.

I agree. The city provides shelters and many of the unhoused decline to use them...so they can take over and render unusable any space they want, to the detriment of a much greater number of others? That makes no sense and is also a waste of taxpayer funds. Re the Tenleytown library, I've also stopped using the compost collection station on that corner because of the harassment I've experienced each time I've gone.

You are not better or more important than the smelly homeless person. There is nothing wrong with them sitting there in the warm. The library is just as much for them as it is for you.

DP. The library is open to the public, true. But there are reasonable expectations of good hygiene and socially acceptable behavior at play, too. The PPP beautifully lays all of this out in her post, which you clearly ignore because you have no actual rebuttal and deep down, you know she's correct. Public libraries are for ALL of us, to include women and children - the very same people who are constantly harassed by mentally ill homeless people. But it's clear you couldn't care less about all of those other people who are now unable to use the library as it was intended.

The poster who thinks anyone in an any condition should be able to be in the library apparently does not care about children's safety.

+1 The kind of person who thinks everyone is free to do whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want -- rights with no rules or obligations to others.

Stop twisting my words and making stuff up. That is not what I said. I DID say that the homeless have every right to be in public spaces, just like OP and just like you. If they are sitting there trying to stay warm, there is NOTHING wrong with that. I never said they are allowed to do whatever they want. If you are bothered by the smell, check the books out and take them home, princess. I'd much rather that, than the homeless freeze to death.

PP here. I've said before I'm not bothered by the smell. I AM concerned about those who are using drugs and alcohol (which many of them do) and the safety of children (which also should concern you, princess). I'm not twisting words. You're the one who thinks anyone has the right to hang out in any public space. Do you live in San Franciaco?

And again, we are responding to OP's ridiculous whining about the smell. Not drugs or violence. If that actually happened, she would have received sympathy. Instead, she is whining that she got a whiff of a homeless person. Details matter, princess.

Princess, perhaps you haven't worked with the homeless and don't realize the reasons for their being homeless. It's not just a smell. It's usually severe mental illness and/or addiction issues. There's a safety issue for children. You can quit pretending otherwise.

Then start your own thread about those issues. In this one, none of that was mentioned. It was just the smell.

DP. Wrong. The OP mentioned the smell - which I agree, is horrific - and also these:

"the offensive smell and condition in the vestibule from a few homeless individuals that were camping out on the benches.
One of the individuals was also acting in a concerning way that made me question mental stability."

In short, the OP was far more polite in her assessment than I would have been. The library reeks of shit, alcohol, and unwashed bodies. And the behavior of many of these homeless people is something that should never be allowed in the general public, much less among children.

Frankly children often reek of shit and unwashed bodies. They’re quite dirty little things, I’ve never met one that smells like strawberries and cream.

Most children aren't drunk, high, and masturbating in a corner.

Neither were the homeless people in OP's post.

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Anonymous wrote:As the child of immigrant parents who did not speak English and worked long hours, the public library was my refuge. I spent countless afternoons there reading, studying, doing my homework, and talking to librarians about books and newspapers. It was safe, clean, and welcoming place. That experience no longer exists for many children today, and its loss is a profound social failure.

Public libraries have been radically transformed, not by accident but by deliberate policy choices that elevate the demands of the severely mentally ill, drug-addicted, and chronically homeless over the rights of the working class, poor families, students, and children who rely on libraries the most. This is not a rant about people down on their luck. It is about repeated, unchecked behavior that would be unacceptable anywhere else: aggressive public ranting, overwhelming filth and odor, public nudity, people soiling themselves and then occupying furniture that others will later use, harassment of minors, and the routine conversion of restrooms into makeshift bathing, laundry facilities, and places to inject drugs. These conditions are continually tolerated while staff stand by powerless or unwilling to act.

The result is that law-abiding patrons are effectively displaced from a public institution. No one can concentrate and people do not feel safe. Students are driven away from one of the few remaining free spaces for learning. When libraries become hostile or frightening environments, it is the poorest and most vulnerable law-abiding users who pay the price.

Defenders of this status quo often cloak themselves in the language of compassion. Librarians and outside advocates dismiss legitimate concerns as intolerance. This is not empathy; it is abdication. Compassion does not require sacrificing standards of hygiene, safety, or basic decency, nor does it require turning libraries into de facto homeless shelters or psychiatric wards.

It is a travesty that today, those who disrupt, intimidate, and degrade public spaces are afforded more practical rights than children trying to do homework, immigrants trying to learn English, or students trying to escape chaos at home. When libraries abandon standards, they do not become more inclusive they become unusable. And society is immeasurably poorer for it.

I agree. The city provides shelters and many of the unhoused decline to use them...so they can take over and render unusable any space they want, to the detriment of a much greater number of others? That makes no sense and is also a waste of taxpayer funds. Re the Tenleytown library, I've also stopped using the compost collection station on that corner because of the harassment I've experienced each time I've gone.

You are not better or more important than the smelly homeless person. There is nothing wrong with them sitting there in the warm. The library is just as much for them as it is for you.

DP. The library is open to the public, true. But there are reasonable expectations of good hygiene and socially acceptable behavior at play, too. The PPP beautifully lays all of this out in her post, which you clearly ignore because you have no actual rebuttal and deep down, you know she's correct. Public libraries are for ALL of us, to include women and children - the very same people who are constantly harassed by mentally ill homeless people. But it's clear you couldn't care less about all of those other people who are now unable to use the library as it was intended.

The poster who thinks anyone in an any condition should be able to be in the library apparently does not care about children's safety.

+1 The kind of person who thinks everyone is free to do whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want -- rights with no rules or obligations to others.

Stop twisting my words and making stuff up. That is not what I said. I DID say that the homeless have every right to be in public spaces, just like OP and just like you. If they are sitting there trying to stay warm, there is NOTHING wrong with that. I never said they are allowed to do whatever they want. If you are bothered by the smell, check the books out and take them home, princess. I'd much rather that, than the homeless freeze to death.

PP here. I've said before I'm not bothered by the smell. I AM concerned about those who are using drugs and alcohol (which many of them do) and the safety of children (which also should concern you, princess). I'm not twisting words. You're the one who thinks anyone has the right to hang out in any public space. Do you live in San Franciaco?

And again, we are responding to OP's ridiculous whining about the smell. Not drugs or violence. If that actually happened, she would have received sympathy. Instead, she is whining that she got a whiff of a homeless person. Details matter, princess.

Princess, perhaps you haven't worked with the homeless and don't realize the reasons for their being homeless. It's not just a smell. It's usually severe mental illness and/or addiction issues. There's a safety issue for children. You can quit pretending otherwise.

Then start your own thread about those issues. In this one, none of that was mentioned. It was just the smell.

DP. Wrong. The OP mentioned the smell - which I agree, is horrific - and also these:

"the offensive smell and condition in the vestibule from a few homeless individuals that were camping out on the benches.
One of the individuals was also acting in a concerning way that made me question mental stability."

In short, the OP was far more polite in her assessment than I would have been. The library reeks of shit, alcohol, and unwashed bodies. And the behavior of many of these homeless people is something that should never be allowed in the general public, much less among children.

Frankly children often reek of shit and unwashed bodies. They’re quite dirty little things, I’ve never met one that smells like strawberries and cream.

Try giving your kids a bath. It's what sane people do.

Please ask a schoolteacher if kids stink or not.

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Anonymous wrote:As the child of immigrant parents who did not speak English and worked long hours, the public library was my refuge. I spent countless afternoons there reading, studying, doing my homework, and talking to librarians about books and newspapers. It was safe, clean, and welcoming place. That experience no longer exists for many children today, and its loss is a profound social failure.

Public libraries have been radically transformed, not by accident but by deliberate policy choices that elevate the demands of the severely mentally ill, drug-addicted, and chronically homeless over the rights of the working class, poor families, students, and children who rely on libraries the most. This is not a rant about people down on their luck. It is about repeated, unchecked behavior that would be unacceptable anywhere else: aggressive public ranting, overwhelming filth and odor, public nudity, people soiling themselves and then occupying furniture that others will later use, harassment of minors, and the routine conversion of restrooms into makeshift bathing, laundry facilities, and places to inject drugs. These conditions are continually tolerated while staff stand by powerless or unwilling to act.

The result is that law-abiding patrons are effectively displaced from a public institution. No one can concentrate and people do not feel safe. Students are driven away from one of the few remaining free spaces for learning. When libraries become hostile or frightening environments, it is the poorest and most vulnerable law-abiding users who pay the price.

Defenders of this status quo often cloak themselves in the language of compassion. Librarians and outside advocates dismiss legitimate concerns as intolerance. This is not empathy; it is abdication. Compassion does not require sacrificing standards of hygiene, safety, or basic decency, nor does it require turning libraries into de facto homeless shelters or psychiatric wards.

It is a travesty that today, those who disrupt, intimidate, and degrade public spaces are afforded more practical rights than children trying to do homework, immigrants trying to learn English, or students trying to escape chaos at home. When libraries abandon standards, they do not become more inclusive they become unusable. And society is immeasurably poorer for it.

I agree. The city provides shelters and many of the unhoused decline to use them...so they can take over and render unusable any space they want, to the detriment of a much greater number of others? That makes no sense and is also a waste of taxpayer funds. Re the Tenleytown library, I've also stopped using the compost collection station on that corner because of the harassment I've experienced each time I've gone.

You are not better or more important than the smelly homeless person. There is nothing wrong with them sitting there in the warm. The library is just as much for them as it is for you.

DP. The library is open to the public, true. But there are reasonable expectations of good hygiene and socially acceptable behavior at play, too. The PPP beautifully lays all of this out in her post, which you clearly ignore because you have no actual rebuttal and deep down, you know she's correct. Public libraries are for ALL of us, to include women and children - the very same people who are constantly harassed by mentally ill homeless people. But it's clear you couldn't care less about all of those other people who are now unable to use the library as it was intended.

The poster who thinks anyone in an any condition should be able to be in the library apparently does not care about children's safety.

+1 The kind of person who thinks everyone is free to do whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want -- rights with no rules or obligations to others.

Stop twisting my words and making stuff up. That is not what I said. I DID say that the homeless have every right to be in public spaces, just like OP and just like you. If they are sitting there trying to stay warm, there is NOTHING wrong with that. I never said they are allowed to do whatever they want. If you are bothered by the smell, check the books out and take them home, princess. I'd much rather that, than the homeless freeze to death.

PP here. I've said before I'm not bothered by the smell. I AM concerned about those who are using drugs and alcohol (which many of them do) and the safety of children (which also should concern you, princess). I'm not twisting words. You're the one who thinks anyone has the right to hang out in any public space. Do you live in San Franciaco?

And again, we are responding to OP's ridiculous whining about the smell. Not drugs or violence. If that actually happened, she would have received sympathy. Instead, she is whining that she got a whiff of a homeless person. Details matter, princess.

Princess, perhaps you haven't worked with the homeless and don't realize the reasons for their being homeless. It's not just a smell. It's usually severe mental illness and/or addiction issues. There's a safety issue for children. You can quit pretending otherwise.

Then start your own thread about those issues. In this one, none of that was mentioned. It was just the smell.

DP. Wrong. The OP mentioned the smell - which I agree, is horrific - and also these:

"the offensive smell and condition in the vestibule from a few homeless individuals that were camping out on the benches.
One of the individuals was also acting in a concerning way that made me question mental stability."

In short, the OP was far more polite in her assessment than I would have been. The library reeks of shit, alcohol, and unwashed bodies. And the behavior of many of these homeless people is something that should never be allowed in the general public, much less among children.

Frankly children often reek of shit and unwashed bodies. They’re quite dirty little things, I’ve never met one that smells like strawberries and cream.

Try giving your kids a bath. It's what sane people do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the child of immigrant parents who did not speak English and worked long hours, the public library was my refuge. I spent countless afternoons there reading, studying, doing my homework, and talking to librarians about books and newspapers. It was safe, clean, and welcoming place. That experience no longer exists for many children today, and its loss is a profound social failure.

Public libraries have been radically transformed, not by accident but by deliberate policy choices that elevate the demands of the severely mentally ill, drug-addicted, and chronically homeless over the rights of the working class, poor families, students, and children who rely on libraries the most. This is not a rant about people down on their luck. It is about repeated, unchecked behavior that would be unacceptable anywhere else: aggressive public ranting, overwhelming filth and odor, public nudity, people soiling themselves and then occupying furniture that others will later use, harassment of minors, and the routine conversion of restrooms into makeshift bathing, laundry facilities, and places to inject drugs. These conditions are continually tolerated while staff stand by powerless or unwilling to act.

The result is that law-abiding patrons are effectively displaced from a public institution. No one can concentrate and people do not feel safe. Students are driven away from one of the few remaining free spaces for learning. When libraries become hostile or frightening environments, it is the poorest and most vulnerable law-abiding users who pay the price.

Defenders of this status quo often cloak themselves in the language of compassion. Librarians and outside advocates dismiss legitimate concerns as intolerance. This is not empathy; it is abdication. Compassion does not require sacrificing standards of hygiene, safety, or basic decency, nor does it require turning libraries into de facto homeless shelters or psychiatric wards.

It is a travesty that today, those who disrupt, intimidate, and degrade public spaces are afforded more practical rights than children trying to do homework, immigrants trying to learn English, or students trying to escape chaos at home. When libraries abandon standards, they do not become more inclusive they become unusable. And society is immeasurably poorer for it.

I agree. The city provides shelters and many of the unhoused decline to use them...so they can take over and render unusable any space they want, to the detriment of a much greater number of others? That makes no sense and is also a waste of taxpayer funds. Re the Tenleytown library, I've also stopped using the compost collection station on that corner because of the harassment I've experienced each time I've gone.

You are not better or more important than the smelly homeless person. There is nothing wrong with them sitting there in the warm. The library is just as much for them as it is for you.

DP. The library is open to the public, true. But there are reasonable expectations of good hygiene and socially acceptable behavior at play, too. The PPP beautifully lays all of this out in her post, which you clearly ignore because you have no actual rebuttal and deep down, you know she's correct. Public libraries are for ALL of us, to include women and children - the very same people who are constantly harassed by mentally ill homeless people. But it's clear you couldn't care less about all of those other people who are now unable to use the library as it was intended.

The poster who thinks anyone in an any condition should be able to be in the library apparently does not care about children's safety.

+1 The kind of person who thinks everyone is free to do whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want -- rights with no rules or obligations to others.

Stop twisting my words and making stuff up. That is not what I said. I DID say that the homeless have every right to be in public spaces, just like OP and just like you. If they are sitting there trying to stay warm, there is NOTHING wrong with that. I never said they are allowed to do whatever they want. If you are bothered by the smell, check the books out and take them home, princess. I'd much rather that, than the homeless freeze to death.

PP here. I've said before I'm not bothered by the smell. I AM concerned about those who are using drugs and alcohol (which many of them do) and the safety of children (which also should concern you, princess). I'm not twisting words. You're the one who thinks anyone has the right to hang out in any public space. Do you live in San Franciaco?

And again, we are responding to OP's ridiculous whining about the smell. Not drugs or violence. If that actually happened, she would have received sympathy. Instead, she is whining that she got a whiff of a homeless person. Details matter, princess.

Princess, perhaps you haven't worked with the homeless and don't realize the reasons for their being homeless. It's not just a smell. It's usually severe mental illness and/or addiction issues. There's a safety issue for children. You can quit pretending otherwise.

Then start your own thread about those issues. In this one, none of that was mentioned. It was just the smell.

DP. Wrong. The OP mentioned the smell - which I agree, is horrific - and also these:

"the offensive smell and condition in the vestibule from a few homeless individuals that were camping out on the benches.
One of the individuals was also acting in a concerning way that made me question mental stability."

In short, the OP was far more polite in her assessment than I would have been. The library reeks of shit, alcohol, and unwashed bodies. And the behavior of many of these homeless people is something that should never be allowed in the general public, much less among children.

Frankly children often reek of shit and unwashed bodies. They’re quite dirty little things, I’ve never met one that smells like strawberries and cream.

Most children aren't drunk, high, and masturbating in a corner.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the child of immigrant parents who did not speak English and worked long hours, the public library was my refuge. I spent countless afternoons there reading, studying, doing my homework, and talking to librarians about books and newspapers. It was safe, clean, and welcoming place. That experience no longer exists for many children today, and its loss is a profound social failure.

Public libraries have been radically transformed, not by accident but by deliberate policy choices that elevate the demands of the severely mentally ill, drug-addicted, and chronically homeless over the rights of the working class, poor families, students, and children who rely on libraries the most. This is not a rant about people down on their luck. It is about repeated, unchecked behavior that would be unacceptable anywhere else: aggressive public ranting, overwhelming filth and odor, public nudity, people soiling themselves and then occupying furniture that others will later use, harassment of minors, and the routine conversion of restrooms into makeshift bathing, laundry facilities, and places to inject drugs. These conditions are continually tolerated while staff stand by powerless or unwilling to act.

The result is that law-abiding patrons are effectively displaced from a public institution. No one can concentrate and people do not feel safe. Students are driven away from one of the few remaining free spaces for learning. When libraries become hostile or frightening environments, it is the poorest and most vulnerable law-abiding users who pay the price.

Defenders of this status quo often cloak themselves in the language of compassion. Librarians and outside advocates dismiss legitimate concerns as intolerance. This is not empathy; it is abdication. Compassion does not require sacrificing standards of hygiene, safety, or basic decency, nor does it require turning libraries into de facto homeless shelters or psychiatric wards.

It is a travesty that today, those who disrupt, intimidate, and degrade public spaces are afforded more practical rights than children trying to do homework, immigrants trying to learn English, or students trying to escape chaos at home. When libraries abandon standards, they do not become more inclusive they become unusable. And society is immeasurably poorer for it.

I agree. The city provides shelters and many of the unhoused decline to use them...so they can take over and render unusable any space they want, to the detriment of a much greater number of others? That makes no sense and is also a waste of taxpayer funds. Re the Tenleytown library, I've also stopped using the compost collection station on that corner because of the harassment I've experienced each time I've gone.

You are not better or more important than the smelly homeless person. There is nothing wrong with them sitting there in the warm. The library is just as much for them as it is for you.

DP. The library is open to the public, true. But there are reasonable expectations of good hygiene and socially acceptable behavior at play, too. The PPP beautifully lays all of this out in her post, which you clearly ignore because you have no actual rebuttal and deep down, you know she's correct. Public libraries are for ALL of us, to include women and children - the very same people who are constantly harassed by mentally ill homeless people. But it's clear you couldn't care less about all of those other people who are now unable to use the library as it was intended.

The poster who thinks anyone in an any condition should be able to be in the library apparently does not care about children's safety.

+1 The kind of person who thinks everyone is free to do whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want -- rights with no rules or obligations to others.

Stop twisting my words and making stuff up. That is not what I said. I DID say that the homeless have every right to be in public spaces, just like OP and just like you. If they are sitting there trying to stay warm, there is NOTHING wrong with that. I never said they are allowed to do whatever they want. If you are bothered by the smell, check the books out and take them home, princess. I'd much rather that, than the homeless freeze to death.

PP here. I've said before I'm not bothered by the smell. I AM concerned about those who are using drugs and alcohol (which many of them do) and the safety of children (which also should concern you, princess). I'm not twisting words. You're the one who thinks anyone has the right to hang out in any public space. Do you live in San Franciaco?

And again, we are responding to OP's ridiculous whining about the smell. Not drugs or violence. If that actually happened, she would have received sympathy. Instead, she is whining that she got a whiff of a homeless person. Details matter, princess.

Princess, perhaps you haven't worked with the homeless and don't realize the reasons for their being homeless. It's not just a smell. It's usually severe mental illness and/or addiction issues. There's a safety issue for children. You can quit pretending otherwise.

Then start your own thread about those issues. In this one, none of that was mentioned. It was just the smell.

DP. Wrong. The OP mentioned the smell - which I agree, is horrific - and also these:

"the offensive smell and condition in the vestibule from a few homeless individuals that were camping out on the benches.
One of the individuals was also acting in a concerning way that made me question mental stability."

In short, the OP was far more polite in her assessment than I would have been. The library reeks of shit, alcohol, and unwashed bodies. And the behavior of many of these homeless people is something that should never be allowed in the general public, much less among children.

Frankly children often reek of shit and unwashed bodies. They’re quite dirty little things, I’ve never met one that smells like strawberries and cream.

Most children aren't drunk, high, and masturbating in a corner.