Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

Kids with severe physical disabilities are similarly expensive. Should it be "too bad so sad" for them, too?

Those were, IMO—what IDEA initially was about. And also relatively rare to where having a couple kids in each school who are physically disabled isn’t going to be a huge deal (and they also don’t harm other students). But now we’re at the point where every classroom seems to have 2+ “chair throwers”. It’s not sustainable and it’s not fair to everyone else.

If you think that then you clearly have never read IDEA.

Our lawmakers certainly did not envision classrooms across America looking more like zoos with several completely out of control kids and teachers who are legally prevented from doing a single thing about it.

No, they didn't. But that's because they thought school districts would properly fund and resource special education programs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

Kids with severe physical disabilities are similarly expensive. Should it be "too bad so sad" for them, too?

Those were, IMO—what IDEA initially was about. And also relatively rare to where having a couple kids in each school who are physically disabled isn’t going to be a huge deal (and they also don’t harm other students). But now we’re at the point where every classroom seems to have 2+ “chair throwers”. It’s not sustainable and it’s not fair to everyone else.

If you think that then you clearly have never read IDEA.

Our lawmakers certainly did not envision classrooms across America looking more like zoos with several completely out of control kids and teachers who are legally prevented from doing a single thing about it.

Can we put this on a bumper sticker please?? Whatever this law was meant to do, what’s currently happening is not it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not the teachers. It is the school’s admin. Gatekeepers to accessing appropriate placements for students.

School systems have also reduced placement opportunities (specialized separate schools and tailored prgms) in favor of the cheaper “home school model.” This benefits no one. No one.

We need smaller localized school districts where you know all of your BOE members & importantly, THEIR kids attend school WITH YOUR kids in the same school, experiencing the same things first hand. Only then when there are shared experiences will there be meaningful change.

If I had it to do all over, I’d never raise a family here in these mega school districts.

School admin isn't the gatekeeper. Capacity is. You can't place students in special programs when those special programs don't have seats. You could increase the size of the programs, but that's significantly more expensive than the home school model.

Expulsion used to be a thing. If the kid can't control themselves, then they can become the parent's problem, not the school's.

Expulsion leads to angry kids on the street. It’s not an answer by itself.

We have become a society that doesn’t care about other people short term and grows bigger problems long term.

I sympathize with OP’s kid. I wish we took care of all kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

Kids with severe physical disabilities are similarly expensive. Should it be "too bad so sad" for them, too?

Those were, IMO—what IDEA initially was about. And also relatively rare to where having a couple kids in each school who are physically disabled isn’t going to be a huge deal (and they also don’t harm other students). But now we’re at the point where every classroom seems to have 2+ “chair throwers”. It’s not sustainable and it’s not fair to everyone else.

If you think that then you clearly have never read IDEA.

Our lawmakers certainly did not envision classrooms across America looking more like zoos with several completely out of control kids and teachers who are legally prevented from doing a single thing about it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

Kids with severe physical disabilities are similarly expensive. Should it be "too bad so sad" for them, too?

Those were, IMO—what IDEA initially was about. And also relatively rare to where having a couple kids in each school who are physically disabled isn’t going to be a huge deal (and they also don’t harm other students). But now we’re at the point where every classroom seems to have 2+ “chair throwers”. It’s not sustainable and it’s not fair to everyone else.

If you think that then you clearly have never read IDEA.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

Kids with severe physical disabilities are similarly expensive. Should it be "too bad so sad" for them, too?

Those were, IMO—what IDEA initially was about. And also relatively rare to where having a couple kids in each school who are physically disabled isn’t going to be a huge deal (and they also don’t harm other students). But now we’re at the point where every classroom seems to have 2+ “chair throwers”. It’s not sustainable and it’s not fair to everyone else.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s normally not the teachers. Especially when we’re talking about younger kids. It’s administrative/district/legislative policies and laws.

This article is a few years old, and was about a kid in Canada… but it applies to how a lot of the policies in our public schools. The states are too.

If this thread we’re commenting on interests you at all, I promise you that you’ll want to read this article.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/education/article-educating-grayson-are-inclusive-classrooms-failing-students/


Go search the subreddit for teachers on reddit about inclusion. The vast majority of teachers are just as exasperated about having their hands tied. And they note that nothing will change unless parents of other kids in their class get involved in advocating for change/contacting the media/etc.

Thank you for posting this - I unlocked the article and am reading. Wow, wow, wow at his parents (I’m a few paragraphs in.)

There’s an element that’s hard to discuss for some people. I’m 50, and have an aunt with developmental disabilities who got instruction from MCPS and she and other adult disabled learners were periodically attacked by someone during class. The distinction is that that person would be removed, and ultimately expelled. This Canadian kid deserved the expulsion and then some but the distinction is that today - or 2019 - the parents take effectively no responsibility at all, even in retrospect, even apparently internally, when their child concusses an adult, or shoots a teacher, and so on. It’s a different world. There is no community and there is quite literally zero voluntary acknowledgment of the chaos and severe injuries when and where and on whom they are inflicted by way too many parents of these kids.

I’m the PP that posted the article (it was a good article right?! I read it around when it came out and half a decade later still remember it and think it’s relevant).

Partially, because it’s… to put it frankly—rage bait. In the way that almost everyone who reads it can not believe this actually happened. But it did, and it’s even more extreme now! This was Canada in 2018 or 2019.. in the U.S. in 2025 this kid would still be in the classroom because kids “can’t be punished due to actions that are a manifestation of their disability”—at least not without being at risk for a costly lawsuit.


And don’t get me wrong, A LOT of parents actively push for their kids who have these types of issues—to be removed from mainstreaming and put into private placements and such. But the issue is the cost. When, at this point it’s normal to have more than one kid who has these type of severe issues in each classroom.. like.. again: what is the answer?

I agree that it’s not the kid’s fault (in most cases), I agree that (in most cases) the parents are trying their hardest and at their wits end, and I especially agree that the other 24-36 students in the class shouldn’t have their rights to an education infringed upon.

With all that in mind, what is the solution besides increasing your taxes several fold to an even more extreme(pretty sure we already pay the most for k-12 out of every other OECD countries and also most of it is funded by your state taxes—so what is spent must be balanced and offset by your local taxes)

There’s no answer here that is both palatable to the majority and also serves everyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

Kids with severe physical disabilities are similarly expensive. Should it be "too bad so sad" for them, too?

Physical disabilities are different because first, they usually don’t stop everyone else from learning, and second, adjustments made can often help other kids later too (e.g. wheel chair ramps). Kids who are disruptive in classes obviously stop the other kids from learning, often give the other kids anxiety and even PTSD to deal with them, and any expenses (1:1 aides or replaced items from then destroying stuff) are usually just sucked up by that disruptive kid alone.

A distinction really needs to be made with any legal protections because they are completely different things.

That depends on the disability. But regardless, they are expensive. Do you want to limit the per pupil spending to 2x for them, too?

Not for durable items or infrastructure that can be reused (ramps etc). But for spending that is not durable (personal aide if someone can’t hear or lip read and needs all speech signed to them) then yes, I think 2x should be the limit provided in the mainstream classes where there is a special ed center alternative available where those resources can be reused by other students. 2x might be called a “reasonable” accommodation.
Anything beyond that becomes unreasonable IMO.

And mainstreaming kids with behavioral issues is “unreasonable” simply because of the negative impact on the mental/emotional health and the learning of other students, even without considering the excessive costs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

Kids with severe physical disabilities are similarly expensive. Should it be "too bad so sad" for them, too?

Physical disabilities are different because first, they usually don’t stop everyone else from learning, and second, adjustments made can often help other kids later too (e.g. wheel chair ramps). Kids who are disruptive in classes obviously stop the other kids from learning, often give the other kids anxiety and even PTSD to deal with them, and any expenses (1:1 aides or replaced items from then destroying stuff) are usually just sucked up by that disruptive kid alone.

A distinction really needs to be made with any legal protections because they are completely different things.

That depends on the disability. But regardless, they are expensive. Do you want to limit the per pupil spending to 2x for them, too?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

Kids with severe physical disabilities are similarly expensive. Should it be "too bad so sad" for them, too?

Physical disabilities are different because first, they usually don’t stop everyone else from learning, and second, adjustments made can often help other kids later too (e.g. wheel chair ramps). Kids who are disruptive in classes obviously stop the other kids from learning, often give the other kids anxiety and even PTSD to deal with them, and any expenses (1:1 aides or replaced items from then destroying stuff) are usually just sucked up by that disruptive kid alone.

A distinction really needs to be made with any legal protections because they are completely different things.

Anonymous wrote:I mean, if something major doesn’t change regarding the educational rights of non disabled children, then within a generation, public schools will literally just be for IEP kids and those who can’t scrape together the money for private. I say this as a parent who used public and regrets it, and wouldn’t make that mistake again.

You know the vast majority of people can't afford private school, don't you?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

Kids with severe physical disabilities are similarly expensive. Should it be "too bad so sad" for them, too?

Anonymous wrote:We need to revamp the law. But it’s a third rail like Social Security and Medicare.

This is where the vouchers movement is coming from. It’s not all religious nutters. It’s quietly a lot of people who want to take their education tax dollars to a school that actually meets the needs of average children, not just special children.

Just get a diagnosis of your own. There's something in the DSM for everyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why the F are you blaming teachers!!!! Do you think we want a kid in our class to threaten to kill us? Or a kid who hits, bites, or spits on us? Do you think we want a kid who is destroying the classroom we use our own money to decorate. Do you really believe we want a kid who is making all the other kids in the class suffer? There is NOTHING we can do.

Blame administrators- principals, special Ed. Directors, and board members who no longer allow kids to be suspended or disciplined. Or block kids from going to special Ed placements. Teachers send kids to the office and they are sent right back to our class often with a treat. We are told to “build a relationship” with the kid who is threatening to kill us or cussing us out or attacking us.

I am a university professor and department head, and I’ve been spat at, cursed at, had things thrown at me, and more this year by a couple of students. There are so many layers of bureaucracy. Everything I do to try and get rid of these students results in legal jumping down my throat, or non-faculty administrators (who have never taught) worrying about optics/legal/process. It is a crisis for these students, a crisis for our society, and a crisis for education. Ugh.

‘Get rid of these students’. Nice, op, really nice.

Oh. Are you back at work, this being your job, sweetheart? Did your spectrumy son make it to college and flunk out, or not quite get there? It’s this professors fault, what with her evil desire to not be physically attacked and treated as less than human, that your child has failed in mainstream education, which naturally requires that all educational opportunities for those ummmm rare students who can get through a lesson without throwing a desk or swearing should be destroyed because uh equities demand that?

Take your crazy sloppy a$$ to Special Needs.

That was my first post on the thread. My second was the one right after that about the impact on budgets.

Anyone who uses the phrase ‘get rid of them’ as it relates to kids shouldn’t be in the education field.

It’s a Friday. You should really take a deep breath and chill out. People will take you more seriously if you don’t communicate in such a caustic manner.

Peace, love and joy, my friend.

Why would I be concerned about your code when whatever thing you parent is such a disaster that you try to justify attacking a college professor who describes being insulted and assaulted? Heal thyself.

So sorry your child is so repugnant that all and sundry want them elsewhere. Must be hard, eh?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why the F are you blaming teachers!!!! Do you think we want a kid in our class to threaten to kill us? Or a kid who hits, bites, or spits on us? Do you think we want a kid who is destroying the classroom we use our own money to decorate. Do you really believe we want a kid who is making all the other kids in the class suffer? There is NOTHING we can do.

Blame administrators- principals, special Ed. Directors, and board members who no longer allow kids to be suspended or disciplined. Or block kids from going to special Ed placements. Teachers send kids to the office and they are sent right back to our class often with a treat. We are told to “build a relationship” with the kid who is threatening to kill us or cussing us out or attacking us.

I am a university professor and department head, and I’ve been spat at, cursed at, had things thrown at me, and more this year by a couple of students. There are so many layers of bureaucracy. Everything I do to try and get rid of these students results in legal jumping down my throat, or non-faculty administrators (who have never taught) worrying about optics/legal/process. It is a crisis for these students, a crisis for our society, and a crisis for education. Ugh.

‘Get rid of these students’. Nice, op, really nice.

Oh. Are you back at work, this being your job, sweetheart? Did your spectrumy son make it to college and flunk out, or not quite get there? It’s this professors fault, what with her evil desire to not be physically attacked and treated as less than human, that your child has failed in mainstream education, which naturally requires that all educational opportunities for those ummmm rare students who can get through a lesson without throwing a desk or swearing should be destroyed because uh equities demand that?

Take your crazy sloppy a$$ to Special Needs.

That was my first post on the thread. My second was the one right after that about the impact on budgets.

Anyone who uses the phrase ‘get rid of them’ as it relates to kids shouldn’t be in the education field.

It’s a Friday. You should really take a deep breath and chill out. People will take you more seriously if you don’t communicate in such a caustic manner.

Peace, love and joy, my friend.