Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the to answer your question OP from reading some of these replies: be well off, come from a family of geniuses, take a boatload of APs, be the very best at your ECs, and study your butt off. Or don’t buy into the T20 or bust mentality.

Thats an accurate summary!

Genetics. That's why try-hards hate 'test required'. No matter how much they prep and tutor, they can only raise the score so much.

There are smart people. The cream tends to rise to the top. People love to make 100 and 10 excuses on why Sally or Jimmy got a low grade or low score or has executive function disorder.

College admin can suss this stuff out. They can tell the try-hard, followed a script, pushed by their parents and used a private counselor to make the same boring application.

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Anonymous wrote:Like so many straight A students who were chief school newspaper editor, captain of a varsity sports team, volunteering, and more who can't even get to VA Tech. I don't know what people who get into schools like Michigan or the Ivy Leagues are doing in high school.

My daughter's friend who got into Yale was an Asian male with a very high wGPA who won Science Olympiad competitions and is an advanced string player.

Straight A doesn't mean anything, OP, you should know this. There is a world's difference between an A in a regular classs and an A in an AP class. Kids who get into the top colleges have 10+ APs, have a national level EC, etc. Your newpaper editing and team captainship worked a generation ago, but not today.

This is sounds exhausting. Kids have no time to be kids.

I am 44, and in my European country, high school was a stressful workathon culminating in one heck of a national exam week. I was so stressed out I couldn't eat on the first day of national exams. But that's nowhere near the worst. My cousins come from a country in Asia known for its teen suicide rate due to exam failure. Over there, when school ends for the day, the kids go to afternoon prep schools to cram. I know *elementary school kids* who had tutors to prepare for admission into the most prestigious afternoon prep schools!!! Separate from their regular school! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?!?

All to say: don't ever believe the US has it bad. I promise you, even for the kids who take grades seriously... it's still a layabout's paradise.

Huh? My NYC sibling had a tutor for her 2yo to prep for preschool admissions to get into the right preschool that would line up for the right elementary. That was over 20 years ago. She had two kids - one ended up graduating from Wash U and is unemployed. The other is at an Ivy.

One of my kids had a tutor by elementary. All had tutors in high school and SAT prep. All took multiple APs, as early as 9th grade. The thing about US education isn’t that it’s laid back - it’s that it’s very individual. It’s a huge country and getting into the top 10-15 schools is very hard - but no one will force you to do those things. There are a lot of less competitive options and that’s where most of the laid back kids will end up.

And yet mine and many others are in ivies, unhooked , and got into the "top" preK and elementary, and later magnet high school, based on testing with no tutor and no prep. Rose to the top. There are naturally intelligent , self-disciplined motivated and focused kids out there. The ivies are chock full of them. Why would any parent have their kid in a school they only could survive with tutoring?

+100

My unhooked kid is headed to an Ivy. You could tell from when he was little. We never tutored or test prepped and he was self-motivated—-but frankly never had to study or struggle like other kids.

Next we will be hearing about first chairs at MCYO who never practice. Please. There exist prodigies for sure, and I've met some. Nowhere close to fill top 5, much less top 20 schools.

The PP is speaking of not needing to study as much as other kids and being highly slef motivated at school not music prodigies. The ivies are filled with naturally bright students who sailed through high school without tutors and aced the SATs and APs in the hardest classes. The vast majority of them were absolutely standout 1-2 kids in their high schools, not counting the mega donors or athletes or other big hooks. Well over half there are unhooked and were superstars in their high school. The adjustment that most will just be around average at the ivy can be hard. It is a significant mental toll on some.

The brilliant kids I know study most of the time, typically more than average kids. However, they study much harder material, so they perform at a much higher level.

I know a kid who won a silver medal at IPHO as a HS sophomore. It's no secret that he studies all day long, he will tell you this. I don't think he has a tutor in an ordinary sense, but he certainly has a lot of support. You don't get to that level on your own, just like you are not winning the Menuhin by being self-taught.

So, yes, these kids don't need to study much to get a 5 at AP, but they need to study just as much to go beyond that.

I wish brilliant lazy kids were more sought after but I don't think this is the case.

Not in my house. It's funny--every year I told my sons when they were screwing around 'hey- next year you won't be able to do this, things are really going to ramp up'. I said this going into their private HS and every year...including 'Junior year is no joke. You aren't going to have time.' My husband always was telling them they weren't doing any of the study stuff for ACT blah, blah...

My youngest just said to me when I warned him about how hard Junior year was going to be "you always say that". Oldest graduate with straight As and is headed to an Ivy next year. Younger brother also has straight As and also 5s AP exams.

The older one does study more than the younger one ever has (barely see him study), but nothing compared to peers.

I am at a job with a huge amount of attrition because it is production based, critical thinking and a lot of writing. My friend's husband asked why I never work voluntary overtime to get stuff done and how do I have so much free time when his wife can barely hang on.

We have great memories in my family. We absorb info fast. Good critical thinking skills. Read fast, but thorough. High processing speed, etc.

At my dad's funeral (organic chemist), his friends were joking about my dad 'the party guy'. They said he would come into the lab and tell them ---get out, let's have some fun--while they struggled. They said 'that son-of-a-b*ch was a genius. Never had to study, etc.' lol

I have a similar kid at a top private who is applying to Ivies this year. He's been taking the very top classes at the school (top math track, etc) and really never studies. I've been telling him for years "it will get harder". It never does. He never does more than 30 minutes of homework per night and always while watching TV, listening to music or both at the same time. He got a 36 ACT on his first try with no studying and basically no sleep (he was out with friends until 2am that night). 5's on APs across the board (on classes he both took and did not actually take).

He has a photographic memory and ADHD with a super high processing speed. He goes to many parties, drinks on occasion and is a super social kid. He lives life at 100 mph at all times and occasionally does dumb stuff. I worry about him.

I have two other kids who are nothing like this. They plod away for 3-4 hours a night. They do well in school too but they work hard.

Until it does. You know nothing. Your kid is in HS and is clearly sheltered from highest achievers. You don't know what other kids are doing. Which is fine, but stop portraying your lazy ass son as some sort of highly accomplished genius.

Nah. Everyone told me that too. I did fantastic at an Ivy. I have a similar kid. Things always came easy. Like pp, I worry about him more than the one that has to study a little more because he flies by the seat of his pants. He continually gets away with it, at each higher level.

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like so many straight A students who were chief school newspaper editor, captain of a varsity sports team, volunteering, and more who can't even get to VA Tech. I don't know what people who get into schools like Michigan or the Ivy Leagues are doing in high school.

My daughter's friend who got into Yale was an Asian male with a very high wGPA who won Science Olympiad competitions and is an advanced string player.

Straight A doesn't mean anything, OP, you should know this. There is a world's difference between an A in a regular classs and an A in an AP class. Kids who get into the top colleges have 10+ APs, have a national level EC, etc. Your newpaper editing and team captainship worked a generation ago, but not today.

This is sounds exhausting. Kids have no time to be kids.

I am 44, and in my European country, high school was a stressful workathon culminating in one heck of a national exam week. I was so stressed out I couldn't eat on the first day of national exams. But that's nowhere near the worst. My cousins come from a country in Asia known for its teen suicide rate due to exam failure. Over there, when school ends for the day, the kids go to afternoon prep schools to cram. I know *elementary school kids* who had tutors to prepare for admission into the most prestigious afternoon prep schools!!! Separate from their regular school! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?!?

All to say: don't ever believe the US has it bad. I promise you, even for the kids who take grades seriously... it's still a layabout's paradise.

Huh? My NYC sibling had a tutor for her 2yo to prep for preschool admissions to get into the right preschool that would line up for the right elementary. That was over 20 years ago. She had two kids - one ended up graduating from Wash U and is unemployed. The other is at an Ivy.

One of my kids had a tutor by elementary. All had tutors in high school and SAT prep. All took multiple APs, as early as 9th grade. The thing about US education isn’t that it’s laid back - it’s that it’s very individual. It’s a huge country and getting into the top 10-15 schools is very hard - but no one will force you to do those things. There are a lot of less competitive options and that’s where most of the laid back kids will end up.

And yet mine and many others are in ivies, unhooked , and got into the "top" preK and elementary, and later magnet high school, based on testing with no tutor and no prep. Rose to the top. There are naturally intelligent , self-disciplined motivated and focused kids out there. The ivies are chock full of them. Why would any parent have their kid in a school they only could survive with tutoring?

+100

My unhooked kid is headed to an Ivy. You could tell from when he was little. We never tutored or test prepped and he was self-motivated—-but frankly never had to study or struggle like other kids.

Next we will be hearing about first chairs at MCYO who never practice. Please. There exist prodigies for sure, and I've met some. Nowhere close to fill top 5, much less top 20 schools.

The PP is speaking of not needing to study as much as other kids and being highly slef motivated at school not music prodigies. The ivies are filled with naturally bright students who sailed through high school without tutors and aced the SATs and APs in the hardest classes. The vast majority of them were absolutely standout 1-2 kids in their high schools, not counting the mega donors or athletes or other big hooks. Well over half there are unhooked and were superstars in their high school. The adjustment that most will just be around average at the ivy can be hard. It is a significant mental toll on some.

The brilliant kids I know study most of the time, typically more than average kids. However, they study much harder material, so they perform at a much higher level.

I know a kid who won a silver medal at IPHO as a HS sophomore. It's no secret that he studies all day long, he will tell you this. I don't think he has a tutor in an ordinary sense, but he certainly has a lot of support. You don't get to that level on your own, just like you are not winning the Menuhin by being self-taught.

So, yes, these kids don't need to study much to get a 5 at AP, but they need to study just as much to go beyond that.

I wish brilliant lazy kids were more sought after but I don't think this is the case.

Not in my house. It's funny--every year I told my sons when they were screwing around 'hey- next year you won't be able to do this, things are really going to ramp up'. I said this going into their private HS and every year...including 'Junior year is no joke. You aren't going to have time.' My husband always was telling them they weren't doing any of the study stuff for ACT blah, blah...

My youngest just said to me when I warned him about how hard Junior year was going to be "you always say that". Oldest graduate with straight As and is headed to an Ivy next year. Younger brother also has straight As and also 5s AP exams.

The older one does study more than the younger one ever has (barely see him study), but nothing compared to peers.

I am at a job with a huge amount of attrition because it is production based, critical thinking and a lot of writing. My friend's husband asked why I never work voluntary overtime to get stuff done and how do I have so much free time when his wife can barely hang on.

We have great memories in my family. We absorb info fast. Good critical thinking skills. Read fast, but thorough. High processing speed, etc.

At my dad's funeral (organic chemist), his friends were joking about my dad 'the party guy'. They said he would come into the lab and tell them ---get out, let's have some fun--while they struggled. They said 'that son-of-a-b*ch was a genius. Never had to study, etc.' lol

I have a similar kid at a top private who is applying to Ivies this year. He's been taking the very top classes at the school (top math track, etc) and really never studies. I've been telling him for years "it will get harder". It never does. He never does more than 30 minutes of homework per night and always while watching TV, listening to music or both at the same time. He got a 36 ACT on his first try with no studying and basically no sleep (he was out with friends until 2am that night). 5's on APs across the board (on classes he both took and did not actually take).

He has a photographic memory and ADHD with a super high processing speed. He goes to many parties, drinks on occasion and is a super social kid. He lives life at 100 mph at all times and occasionally does dumb stuff. I worry about him.

I have two other kids who are nothing like this. They plod away for 3-4 hours a night. They do well in school too but they work hard.

Until it does. You know nothing. Your kid is in HS and is clearly sheltered from highest achievers. You don't know what other kids are doing. Which is fine, but stop portraying your lazy ass son as some sort of highly accomplished genius.

Anonymous wrote:Like so many straight A students who were chief school newspaper editor, captain of a varsity sports team, volunteering, and more who can't even get to VA Tech. I don't know what people who get into schools like Michigan or the Ivy Leagues are doing in high school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How is it sad to admit your child needs extra help and get them a good tutor?

Am I missing something?

I am not the PP. Reading the thread and the mentions of "sad" the word seems to relate to parents getting tutors early on just to have their kid barely cling to the top math group, or get into a top magnet high school, all the while pushing and pushing their kid to gun for ivies or even "lower" T20s when these colleges are filled with students who sailed through the hardest high school programs with no tutors. That is how I interpret it, for one: it is indeed sad to tiger-parent your child to try to be something they are not, rather than be in the math level they naturally should be in, even if that is just average in their ridiculous private school, and then trust the process that they will land in a college that suits them, where they have a chance to keep up with the other students or even stand out a little. This race to the top schools that everyone (on DCum) craves yet only a small portion of high school students academically can handle is troubling and wrong. Accept the kid you have at the level they naturally are.

This is a very american middle class white attitude. Find someplace you can excel at comfortably and go there. Big fish small pond.
The asian immigrant attitude is to strive for the most challenging atmosphere and you might find yourself rising to the occasion. Run with the swift.

They both have their pros and cons.

Except that there are fewer and fewer small ponds. Small ponds are pooling into bigger ponds.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like so many straight A students who were chief school newspaper editor, captain of a varsity sports team, volunteering, and more who can't even get to VA Tech. I don't know what people who get into schools like Michigan or the Ivy Leagues are doing in high school.

My daughter's friend who got into Yale was an Asian male with a very high wGPA who won Science Olympiad competitions and is an advanced string player.

Straight A doesn't mean anything, OP, you should know this. There is a world's difference between an A in a regular classs and an A in an AP class. Kids who get into the top colleges have 10+ APs, have a national level EC, etc. Your newpaper editing and team captainship worked a generation ago, but not today.

This is sounds exhausting. Kids have no time to be kids.

I am 44, and in my European country, high school was a stressful workathon culminating in one heck of a national exam week. I was so stressed out I couldn't eat on the first day of national exams. But that's nowhere near the worst. My cousins come from a country in Asia known for its teen suicide rate due to exam failure. Over there, when school ends for the day, the kids go to afternoon prep schools to cram. I know *elementary school kids* who had tutors to prepare for admission into the most prestigious afternoon prep schools!!! Separate from their regular school! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?!?

All to say: don't ever believe the US has it bad. I promise you, even for the kids who take grades seriously... it's still a layabout's paradise.

Huh? My NYC sibling had a tutor for her 2yo to prep for preschool admissions to get into the right preschool that would line up for the right elementary. That was over 20 years ago. She had two kids - one ended up graduating from Wash U and is unemployed. The other is at an Ivy.

One of my kids had a tutor by elementary. All had tutors in high school and SAT prep. All took multiple APs, as early as 9th grade. The thing about US education isn’t that it’s laid back - it’s that it’s very individual. It’s a huge country and getting into the top 10-15 schools is very hard - but no one will force you to do those things. There are a lot of less competitive options and that’s where most of the laid back kids will end up.

And yet mine and many others are in ivies, unhooked , and got into the "top" preK and elementary, and later magnet high school, based on testing with no tutor and no prep. Rose to the top. There are naturally intelligent , self-disciplined motivated and focused kids out there. The ivies are chock full of them. Why would any parent have their kid in a school they only could survive with tutoring?

+100

My unhooked kid is headed to an Ivy. You could tell from when he was little. We never tutored or test prepped and he was self-motivated—-but frankly never had to study or struggle like other kids.

Next we will be hearing about first chairs at MCYO who never practice. Please. There exist prodigies for sure, and I've met some. Nowhere close to fill top 5, much less top 20 schools.

The PP is speaking of not needing to study as much as other kids and being highly slef motivated at school not music prodigies. The ivies are filled with naturally bright students who sailed through high school without tutors and aced the SATs and APs in the hardest classes. The vast majority of them were absolutely standout 1-2 kids in their high schools, not counting the mega donors or athletes or other big hooks. Well over half there are unhooked and were superstars in their high school. The adjustment that most will just be around average at the ivy can be hard. It is a significant mental toll on some.

The brilliant kids I know study most of the time, typically more than average kids. However, they study much harder material, so they perform at a much higher level.

I know a kid who won a silver medal at IPHO as a HS sophomore. It's no secret that he studies all day long, he will tell you this. I don't think he has a tutor in an ordinary sense, but he certainly has a lot of support. You don't get to that level on your own, just like you are not winning the Menuhin by being self-taught.

So, yes, these kids don't need to study much to get a 5 at AP, but they need to study just as much to go beyond that.

I wish brilliant lazy kids were more sought after but I don't think this is the case.

Not in my house. It's funny--every year I told my sons when they were screwing around 'hey- next year you won't be able to do this, things are really going to ramp up'. I said this going into their private HS and every year...including 'Junior year is no joke. You aren't going to have time.' My husband always was telling them they weren't doing any of the study stuff for ACT blah, blah...

My youngest just said to me when I warned him about how hard Junior year was going to be "you always say that". Oldest graduate with straight As and is headed to an Ivy next year. Younger brother also has straight As and also 5s AP exams.

The older one does study more than the younger one ever has (barely see him study), but nothing compared to peers.

I am at a job with a huge amount of attrition because it is production based, critical thinking and a lot of writing. My friend's husband asked why I never work voluntary overtime to get stuff done and how do I have so much free time when his wife can barely hang on.

We have great memories in my family. We absorb info fast. Good critical thinking skills. Read fast, but thorough. High processing speed, etc.

At my dad's funeral (organic chemist), his friends were joking about my dad 'the party guy'. They said he would come into the lab and tell them ---get out, let's have some fun--while they struggled. They said 'that son-of-a-b*ch was a genius. Never had to study, etc.' lol

I have a similar kid at a top private who is applying to Ivies this year. He's been taking the very top classes at the school (top math track, etc) and really never studies. I've been telling him for years "it will get harder". It never does. He never does more than 30 minutes of homework per night and always while watching TV, listening to music or both at the same time. He got a 36 ACT on his first try with no studying and basically no sleep (he was out with friends until 2am that night). 5's on APs across the board (on classes he both took and did not actually take).

He has a photographic memory and ADHD with a super high processing speed. He goes to many parties, drinks on occasion and is a super social kid. He lives life at 100 mph at all times and occasionally does dumb stuff. I worry about him.

I have two other kids who are nothing like this. They plod away for 3-4 hours a night. They do well in school too but they work hard.

Until it does. You know nothing. Your kid is in HS and is clearly sheltered from highest achievers. You don't know what other kids are doing. Which is fine, but stop portraying your lazy ass son as some sort of highly accomplished genius.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like so many straight A students who were chief school newspaper editor, captain of a varsity sports team, volunteering, and more who can't even get to VA Tech. I don't know what people who get into schools like Michigan or the Ivy Leagues are doing in high school.

My daughter's friend who got into Yale was an Asian male with a very high wGPA who won Science Olympiad competitions and is an advanced string player.

Straight A doesn't mean anything, OP, you should know this. There is a world's difference between an A in a regular classs and an A in an AP class. Kids who get into the top colleges have 10+ APs, have a national level EC, etc. Your newpaper editing and team captainship worked a generation ago, but not today.

This is sounds exhausting. Kids have no time to be kids.

I am 44, and in my European country, high school was a stressful workathon culminating in one heck of a national exam week. I was so stressed out I couldn't eat on the first day of national exams. But that's nowhere near the worst. My cousins come from a country in Asia known for its teen suicide rate due to exam failure. Over there, when school ends for the day, the kids go to afternoon prep schools to cram. I know *elementary school kids* who had tutors to prepare for admission into the most prestigious afternoon prep schools!!! Separate from their regular school! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?!?

All to say: don't ever believe the US has it bad. I promise you, even for the kids who take grades seriously... it's still a layabout's paradise.

Huh? My NYC sibling had a tutor for her 2yo to prep for preschool admissions to get into the right preschool that would line up for the right elementary. That was over 20 years ago. She had two kids - one ended up graduating from Wash U and is unemployed. The other is at an Ivy.

One of my kids had a tutor by elementary. All had tutors in high school and SAT prep. All took multiple APs, as early as 9th grade. The thing about US education isn’t that it’s laid back - it’s that it’s very individual. It’s a huge country and getting into the top 10-15 schools is very hard - but no one will force you to do those things. There are a lot of less competitive options and that’s where most of the laid back kids will end up.

And yet mine and many others are in ivies, unhooked , and got into the "top" preK and elementary, and later magnet high school, based on testing with no tutor and no prep. Rose to the top. There are naturally intelligent , self-disciplined motivated and focused kids out there. The ivies are chock full of them. Why would any parent have their kid in a school they only could survive with tutoring?

+100

My unhooked kid is headed to an Ivy. You could tell from when he was little. We never tutored or test prepped and he was self-motivated—-but frankly never had to study or struggle like other kids.

Next we will be hearing about first chairs at MCYO who never practice. Please. There exist prodigies for sure, and I've met some. Nowhere close to fill top 5, much less top 20 schools.

The PP is speaking of not needing to study as much as other kids and being highly slef motivated at school not music prodigies. The ivies are filled with naturally bright students who sailed through high school without tutors and aced the SATs and APs in the hardest classes. The vast majority of them were absolutely standout 1-2 kids in their high schools, not counting the mega donors or athletes or other big hooks. Well over half there are unhooked and were superstars in their high school. The adjustment that most will just be around average at the ivy can be hard. It is a significant mental toll on some.

The brilliant kids I know study most of the time, typically more than average kids. However, they study much harder material, so they perform at a much higher level.

I know a kid who won a silver medal at IPHO as a HS sophomore. It's no secret that he studies all day long, he will tell you this. I don't think he has a tutor in an ordinary sense, but he certainly has a lot of support. You don't get to that level on your own, just like you are not winning the Menuhin by being self-taught.

So, yes, these kids don't need to study much to get a 5 at AP, but they need to study just as much to go beyond that.

I wish brilliant lazy kids were more sought after but I don't think this is the case.

Not in my house. It's funny--every year I told my sons when they were screwing around 'hey- next year you won't be able to do this, things are really going to ramp up'. I said this going into their private HS and every year...including 'Junior year is no joke. You aren't going to have time.' My husband always was telling them they weren't doing any of the study stuff for ACT blah, blah...

My youngest just said to me when I warned him about how hard Junior year was going to be "you always say that". Oldest graduate with straight As and is headed to an Ivy next year. Younger brother also has straight As and also 5s AP exams.

The older one does study more than the younger one ever has (barely see him study), but nothing compared to peers.

I am at a job with a huge amount of attrition because it is production based, critical thinking and a lot of writing. My friend's husband asked why I never work voluntary overtime to get stuff done and how do I have so much free time when his wife can barely hang on.

We have great memories in my family. We absorb info fast. Good critical thinking skills. Read fast, but thorough. High processing speed, etc.

At my dad's funeral (organic chemist), his friends were joking about my dad 'the party guy'. They said he would come into the lab and tell them ---get out, let's have some fun--while they struggled. They said 'that son-of-a-b*ch was a genius. Never had to study, etc.' lol

This is easy for many kids. Some of those kids use the time to ramp up. They are performing at much higher level than your kids.

The world is filled with people of different performance levels. We acknowledge it for athletes but rarely when it comes to intelligence: there are real quantifiable differences as this thread shows and anyone who teaches students knows

Wtf does that mean? Your not making the case you think you are making.

Very few kids have the talent to go D1. Just like very few kids have the raw intelligence for an Ivy. A D1 coach isn't taking a kid that no matter how much they work--just can't get to that level--good, but not outstanding.

Yep. IT is analogous that the annoying, obnoxious sports parents that live vicarioulsy through their kid and pay for expensive private training--ride the kid and are obnoxious at the game...their kids don't get the scholarship or the D1 spot because ...genetics. They reach a threshhold.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like so many straight A students who were chief school newspaper editor, captain of a varsity sports team, volunteering, and more who can't even get to VA Tech. I don't know what people who get into schools like Michigan or the Ivy Leagues are doing in high school.

My daughter's friend who got into Yale was an Asian male with a very high wGPA who won Science Olympiad competitions and is an advanced string player.

Straight A doesn't mean anything, OP, you should know this. There is a world's difference between an A in a regular classs and an A in an AP class. Kids who get into the top colleges have 10+ APs, have a national level EC, etc. Your newpaper editing and team captainship worked a generation ago, but not today.

This is sounds exhausting. Kids have no time to be kids.

I am 44, and in my European country, high school was a stressful workathon culminating in one heck of a national exam week. I was so stressed out I couldn't eat on the first day of national exams. But that's nowhere near the worst. My cousins come from a country in Asia known for its teen suicide rate due to exam failure. Over there, when school ends for the day, the kids go to afternoon prep schools to cram. I know *elementary school kids* who had tutors to prepare for admission into the most prestigious afternoon prep schools!!! Separate from their regular school! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?!?

All to say: don't ever believe the US has it bad. I promise you, even for the kids who take grades seriously... it's still a layabout's paradise.

Huh? My NYC sibling had a tutor for her 2yo to prep for preschool admissions to get into the right preschool that would line up for the right elementary. That was over 20 years ago. She had two kids - one ended up graduating from Wash U and is unemployed. The other is at an Ivy.

One of my kids had a tutor by elementary. All had tutors in high school and SAT prep. All took multiple APs, as early as 9th grade. The thing about US education isn’t that it’s laid back - it’s that it’s very individual. It’s a huge country and getting into the top 10-15 schools is very hard - but no one will force you to do those things. There are a lot of less competitive options and that’s where most of the laid back kids will end up.

And yet mine and many others are in ivies, unhooked , and got into the "top" preK and elementary, and later magnet high school, based on testing with no tutor and no prep. Rose to the top. There are naturally intelligent , self-disciplined motivated and focused kids out there. The ivies are chock full of them. Why would any parent have their kid in a school they only could survive with tutoring?

+100

My unhooked kid is headed to an Ivy. You could tell from when he was little. We never tutored or test prepped and he was self-motivated—-but frankly never had to study or struggle like other kids.

Next we will be hearing about first chairs at MCYO who never practice. Please. There exist prodigies for sure, and I've met some. Nowhere close to fill top 5, much less top 20 schools.

The PP is speaking of not needing to study as much as other kids and being highly slef motivated at school not music prodigies. The ivies are filled with naturally bright students who sailed through high school without tutors and aced the SATs and APs in the hardest classes. The vast majority of them were absolutely standout 1-2 kids in their high schools, not counting the mega donors or athletes or other big hooks. Well over half there are unhooked and were superstars in their high school. The adjustment that most will just be around average at the ivy can be hard. It is a significant mental toll on some.

The brilliant kids I know study most of the time, typically more than average kids. However, they study much harder material, so they perform at a much higher level.

I know a kid who won a silver medal at IPHO as a HS sophomore. It's no secret that he studies all day long, he will tell you this. I don't think he has a tutor in an ordinary sense, but he certainly has a lot of support. You don't get to that level on your own, just like you are not winning the Menuhin by being self-taught.

So, yes, these kids don't need to study much to get a 5 at AP, but they need to study just as much to go beyond that.

I wish brilliant lazy kids were more sought after but I don't think this is the case.

Not in my house. It's funny--every year I told my sons when they were screwing around 'hey- next year you won't be able to do this, things are really going to ramp up'. I said this going into their private HS and every year...including 'Junior year is no joke. You aren't going to have time.' My husband always was telling them they weren't doing any of the study stuff for ACT blah, blah...

My youngest just said to me when I warned him about how hard Junior year was going to be "you always say that". Oldest graduate with straight As and is headed to an Ivy next year. Younger brother also has straight As and also 5s AP exams.

The older one does study more than the younger one ever has (barely see him study), but nothing compared to peers.

I am at a job with a huge amount of attrition because it is production based, critical thinking and a lot of writing. My friend's husband asked why I never work voluntary overtime to get stuff done and how do I have so much free time when his wife can barely hang on.

We have great memories in my family. We absorb info fast. Good critical thinking skills. Read fast, but thorough. High processing speed, etc.

At my dad's funeral (organic chemist), his friends were joking about my dad 'the party guy'. They said he would come into the lab and tell them ---get out, let's have some fun--while they struggled. They said 'that son-of-a-b*ch was a genius. Never had to study, etc.' lol

This is easy for many kids. Some of those kids use the time to ramp up. They are performing at much higher level than your kids.

The world is filled with people of different performance levels. We acknowledge it for athletes but rarely when it comes to intelligence: there are real quantifiable differences as this thread shows and anyone who teaches students knows

Wtf does that mean? Your not making the case you think you are making.

Very few kids have the talent to go D1. Just like very few kids have the raw intelligence for an Ivy. A D1 coach isn't taking a kid that no matter how much they work--just can't get to that level--good, but not outstanding.

Yep. IT is analogous that the annoying, obnoxious sports parents that live vicarioulsy through their kid and pay for expensive private training--ride the kid and are obnoxious at the game...their kids don't get the scholarship or the D1 spot because ...genetics. They reach a threshhold.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the to answer your question OP from reading some of these replies: be well off, come from a family of geniuses, take a boatload of APs, be the very best at your ECs, and study your butt off. Or don’t buy into the T20 or bust mentality.

Thats an accurate summary!

Genetics. That's why try-hards hate 'test required'. No matter how much they prep and tutor, they can only raise the score so much.

There are smart people. The cream tends to rise to the top. People love to make 100 and 10 excuses on why Sally or Jimmy got a low grade or low score or has executive function disorder.

College admin can suss this stuff out. They can tell the try-hard, followed a script, pushed by their parents and used a private counselor to make the same boring application.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting into the second tier schools like Mich really isn’t that hard. You just need the stats and scores. And you need to be strategic, know which regions and which schools the college likes the pull kids from. There are schools that have 3-4 kids accepted into Mich every year. This may not be where your HS sends kids. So figure out if they send kids to NYU or another school.

I disagree. Michigan routinely denies valedictorians

Sure, but many others are getting in. If you're a valedictorian at a half decent school, you can get into UMich. DP.

You have to afford the neighborhood with the decent high school. No, it’s not easy to get into Michigan.

For the public magnets/gov schools such as TJ and others, Michigan is a "backup"/likely or at worst a match school for the entire top 10%, many of whom land at ivy/plus. From the perspective of those students, Michigan is "easy". UVA in state is also a backup/likely for top students at these schools. For some of these magnets you can live in below-average HHI/housing and test in to these high schools from many different areas/districts.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How is it sad to admit your child needs extra help and get them a good tutor?

Am I missing something?

I am not the PP. Reading the thread and the mentions of "sad" the word seems to relate to parents getting tutors early on just to have their kid barely cling to the top math group, or get into a top magnet high school, all the while pushing and pushing their kid to gun for ivies or even "lower" T20s when these colleges are filled with students who sailed through the hardest high school programs with no tutors. That is how I interpret it, for one: it is indeed sad to tiger-parent your child to try to be something they are not, rather than be in the math level they naturally should be in, even if that is just average in their ridiculous private school, and then trust the process that they will land in a college that suits them, where they have a chance to keep up with the other students or even stand out a little. This race to the top schools that everyone (on DCum) craves yet only a small portion of high school students academically can handle is troubling and wrong. Accept the kid you have at the level they naturally are.

This is a very american middle class white attitude. Find someplace you can excel at comfortably and go there. Big fish small pond.
The asian immigrant attitude is to strive for the most challenging atmosphere and you might find yourself rising to the occasion. Run with the swift.

They both have their pros and cons.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like so many straight A students who were chief school newspaper editor, captain of a varsity sports team, volunteering, and more who can't even get to VA Tech. I don't know what people who get into schools like Michigan or the Ivy Leagues are doing in high school.

My daughter's friend who got into Yale was an Asian male with a very high wGPA who won Science Olympiad competitions and is an advanced string player.

Straight A doesn't mean anything, OP, you should know this. There is a world's difference between an A in a regular classs and an A in an AP class. Kids who get into the top colleges have 10+ APs, have a national level EC, etc. Your newpaper editing and team captainship worked a generation ago, but not today.

This is sounds exhausting. Kids have no time to be kids.

I am 44, and in my European country, high school was a stressful workathon culminating in one heck of a national exam week. I was so stressed out I couldn't eat on the first day of national exams. But that's nowhere near the worst. My cousins come from a country in Asia known for its teen suicide rate due to exam failure. Over there, when school ends for the day, the kids go to afternoon prep schools to cram. I know *elementary school kids* who had tutors to prepare for admission into the most prestigious afternoon prep schools!!! Separate from their regular school! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?!?

All to say: don't ever believe the US has it bad. I promise you, even for the kids who take grades seriously... it's still a layabout's paradise.

Huh? My NYC sibling had a tutor for her 2yo to prep for preschool admissions to get into the right preschool that would line up for the right elementary. That was over 20 years ago. She had two kids - one ended up graduating from Wash U and is unemployed. The other is at an Ivy.

One of my kids had a tutor by elementary. All had tutors in high school and SAT prep. All took multiple APs, as early as 9th grade. The thing about US education isn’t that it’s laid back - it’s that it’s very individual. It’s a huge country and getting into the top 10-15 schools is very hard - but no one will force you to do those things. There are a lot of less competitive options and that’s where most of the laid back kids will end up.

And yet mine and many others are in ivies, unhooked , and got into the "top" preK and elementary, and later magnet high school, based on testing with no tutor and no prep. Rose to the top. There are naturally intelligent , self-disciplined motivated and focused kids out there. The ivies are chock full of them. Why would any parent have their kid in a school they only could survive with tutoring?

+100

My unhooked kid is headed to an Ivy. You could tell from when he was little. We never tutored or test prepped and he was self-motivated—-but frankly never had to study or struggle like other kids.

Next we will be hearing about first chairs at MCYO who never practice. Please. There exist prodigies for sure, and I've met some. Nowhere close to fill top 5, much less top 20 schools.

The PP is speaking of not needing to study as much as other kids and being highly slef motivated at school not music prodigies. The ivies are filled with naturally bright students who sailed through high school without tutors and aced the SATs and APs in the hardest classes. The vast majority of them were absolutely standout 1-2 kids in their high schools, not counting the mega donors or athletes or other big hooks. Well over half there are unhooked and were superstars in their high school. The adjustment that most will just be around average at the ivy can be hard. It is a significant mental toll on some.

The brilliant kids I know study most of the time, typically more than average kids. However, they study much harder material, so they perform at a much higher level.

I know a kid who won a silver medal at IPHO as a HS sophomore. It's no secret that he studies all day long, he will tell you this. I don't think he has a tutor in an ordinary sense, but he certainly has a lot of support. You don't get to that level on your own, just like you are not winning the Menuhin by being self-taught.

So, yes, these kids don't need to study much to get a 5 at AP, but they need to study just as much to go beyond that.

I wish brilliant lazy kids were more sought after but I don't think this is the case.

Not in my house. It's funny--every year I told my sons when they were screwing around 'hey- next year you won't be able to do this, things are really going to ramp up'. I said this going into their private HS and every year...including 'Junior year is no joke. You aren't going to have time.' My husband always was telling them they weren't doing any of the study stuff for ACT blah, blah...

My youngest just said to me when I warned him about how hard Junior year was going to be "you always say that". Oldest graduate with straight As and is headed to an Ivy next year. Younger brother also has straight As and also 5s AP exams.

The older one does study more than the younger one ever has (barely see him study), but nothing compared to peers.

I am at a job with a huge amount of attrition because it is production based, critical thinking and a lot of writing. My friend's husband asked why I never work voluntary overtime to get stuff done and how do I have so much free time when his wife can barely hang on.

We have great memories in my family. We absorb info fast. Good critical thinking skills. Read fast, but thorough. High processing speed, etc.

At my dad's funeral (organic chemist), his friends were joking about my dad 'the party guy'. They said he would come into the lab and tell them ---get out, let's have some fun--while they struggled. They said 'that son-of-a-b*ch was a genius. Never had to study, etc.' lol

I have a similar kid at a top private who is applying to Ivies this year. He's been taking the very top classes at the school (top math track, etc) and really never studies. I've been telling him for years "it will get harder". It never does. He never does more than 30 minutes of homework per night and always while watching TV, listening to music or both at the same time. He got a 36 ACT on his first try with no studying and basically no sleep (he was out with friends until 2am that night). 5's on APs across the board (on classes he both took and did not actually take).

He has a photographic memory and ADHD with a super high processing speed. He goes to many parties, drinks on occasion and is a super social kid. He lives life at 100 mph at all times and occasionally does dumb stuff. I worry about him.

I have two other kids who are nothing like this. They plod away for 3-4 hours a night. They do well in school too but they work hard.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How is it sad to admit your child needs extra help and get them a good tutor?

Am I missing something?

I am not the PP. Reading the thread and the mentions of "sad" the word seems to relate to parents getting tutors early on just to have their kid barely cling to the top math group, or get into a top magnet high school, all the while pushing and pushing their kid to gun for ivies or even "lower" T20s when these colleges are filled with students who sailed through the hardest high school programs with no tutors. That is how I interpret it, for one: it is indeed sad to tiger-parent your child to try to be something they are not, rather than be in the math level they naturally should be in, even if that is just average in their ridiculous private school, and then trust the process that they will land in a college that suits them, where they have a chance to keep up with the other students or even stand out a little. This race to the top schools that everyone (on DCum) craves yet only a small portion of high school students academically can handle is troubling and wrong. Accept the kid you have at the level they naturally are.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like so many straight A students who were chief school newspaper editor, captain of a varsity sports team, volunteering, and more who can't even get to VA Tech. I don't know what people who get into schools like Michigan or the Ivy Leagues are doing in high school.

My daughter's friend who got into Yale was an Asian male with a very high wGPA who won Science Olympiad competitions and is an advanced string player.

Straight A doesn't mean anything, OP, you should know this. There is a world's difference between an A in a regular classs and an A in an AP class. Kids who get into the top colleges have 10+ APs, have a national level EC, etc. Your newpaper editing and team captainship worked a generation ago, but not today.

This is sounds exhausting. Kids have no time to be kids.

I am 44, and in my European country, high school was a stressful workathon culminating in one heck of a national exam week. I was so stressed out I couldn't eat on the first day of national exams. But that's nowhere near the worst. My cousins come from a country in Asia known for its teen suicide rate due to exam failure. Over there, when school ends for the day, the kids go to afternoon prep schools to cram. I know *elementary school kids* who had tutors to prepare for admission into the most prestigious afternoon prep schools!!! Separate from their regular school! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?!?

All to say: don't ever believe the US has it bad. I promise you, even for the kids who take grades seriously... it's still a layabout's paradise.

Huh? My NYC sibling had a tutor for her 2yo to prep for preschool admissions to get into the right preschool that would line up for the right elementary. That was over 20 years ago. She had two kids - one ended up graduating from Wash U and is unemployed. The other is at an Ivy.

One of my kids had a tutor by elementary. All had tutors in high school and SAT prep. All took multiple APs, as early as 9th grade. The thing about US education isn’t that it’s laid back - it’s that it’s very individual. It’s a huge country and getting into the top 10-15 schools is very hard - but no one will force you to do those things. There are a lot of less competitive options and that’s where most of the laid back kids will end up.

And yet mine and many others are in ivies, unhooked , and got into the "top" preK and elementary, and later magnet high school, based on testing with no tutor and no prep. Rose to the top. There are naturally intelligent , self-disciplined motivated and focused kids out there. The ivies are chock full of them. Why would any parent have their kid in a school they only could survive with tutoring?

+100

My unhooked kid is headed to an Ivy. You could tell from when he was little. We never tutored or test prepped and he was self-motivated—-but frankly never had to study or struggle like other kids.

Next we will be hearing about first chairs at MCYO who never practice. Please. There exist prodigies for sure, and I've met some. Nowhere close to fill top 5, much less top 20 schools.

The PP is speaking of not needing to study as much as other kids and being highly slef motivated at school not music prodigies. The ivies are filled with naturally bright students who sailed through high school without tutors and aced the SATs and APs in the hardest classes. The vast majority of them were absolutely standout 1-2 kids in their high schools, not counting the mega donors or athletes or other big hooks. Well over half there are unhooked and were superstars in their high school. The adjustment that most will just be around average at the ivy can be hard. It is a significant mental toll on some.

The brilliant kids I know study most of the time, typically more than average kids. However, they study much harder material, so they perform at a much higher level.

I know a kid who won a silver medal at IPHO as a HS sophomore. It's no secret that he studies all day long, he will tell you this. I don't think he has a tutor in an ordinary sense, but he certainly has a lot of support. You don't get to that level on your own, just like you are not winning the Menuhin by being self-taught.

So, yes, these kids don't need to study much to get a 5 at AP, but they need to study just as much to go beyond that.

I wish brilliant lazy kids were more sought after but I don't think this is the case.

Not in my house. It's funny--every year I told my sons when they were screwing around 'hey- next year you won't be able to do this, things are really going to ramp up'. I said this going into their private HS and every year...including 'Junior year is no joke. You aren't going to have time.' My husband always was telling them they weren't doing any of the study stuff for ACT blah, blah...

My youngest just said to me when I warned him about how hard Junior year was going to be "you always say that". Oldest graduate with straight As and is headed to an Ivy next year. Younger brother also has straight As and also 5s AP exams.

The older one does study more than the younger one ever has (barely see him study), but nothing compared to peers.

I am at a job with a huge amount of attrition because it is production based, critical thinking and a lot of writing. My friend's husband asked why I never work voluntary overtime to get stuff done and how do I have so much free time when his wife can barely hang on.

We have great memories in my family. We absorb info fast. Good critical thinking skills. Read fast, but thorough. High processing speed, etc.

At my dad's funeral (organic chemist), his friends were joking about my dad 'the party guy'. They said he would come into the lab and tell them ---get out, let's have some fun--while they struggled. They said 'that son-of-a-b*ch was a genius. Never had to study, etc.' lol

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like so many straight A students who were chief school newspaper editor, captain of a varsity sports team, volunteering, and more who can't even get to VA Tech. I don't know what people who get into schools like Michigan or the Ivy Leagues are doing in high school.

My daughter's friend who got into Yale was an Asian male with a very high wGPA who won Science Olympiad competitions and is an advanced string player.

Straight A doesn't mean anything, OP, you should know this. There is a world's difference between an A in a regular classs and an A in an AP class. Kids who get into the top colleges have 10+ APs, have a national level EC, etc. Your newpaper editing and team captainship worked a generation ago, but not today.

This is sounds exhausting. Kids have no time to be kids.

I am 44, and in my European country, high school was a stressful workathon culminating in one heck of a national exam week. I was so stressed out I couldn't eat on the first day of national exams. But that's nowhere near the worst. My cousins come from a country in Asia known for its teen suicide rate due to exam failure. Over there, when school ends for the day, the kids go to afternoon prep schools to cram. I know *elementary school kids* who had tutors to prepare for admission into the most prestigious afternoon prep schools!!! Separate from their regular school! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?!?

All to say: don't ever believe the US has it bad. I promise you, even for the kids who take grades seriously... it's still a layabout's paradise.

Huh? My NYC sibling had a tutor for her 2yo to prep for preschool admissions to get into the right preschool that would line up for the right elementary. That was over 20 years ago. She had two kids - one ended up graduating from Wash U and is unemployed. The other is at an Ivy.

One of my kids had a tutor by elementary. All had tutors in high school and SAT prep. All took multiple APs, as early as 9th grade. The thing about US education isn’t that it’s laid back - it’s that it’s very individual. It’s a huge country and getting into the top 10-15 schools is very hard - but no one will force you to do those things. There are a lot of less competitive options and that’s where most of the laid back kids will end up.

And yet mine and many others are in ivies, unhooked , and got into the "top" preK and elementary, and later magnet high school, based on testing with no tutor and no prep. Rose to the top. There are naturally intelligent , self-disciplined motivated and focused kids out there. The ivies are chock full of them. Why would any parent have their kid in a school they only could survive with tutoring?

+100

My unhooked kid is headed to an Ivy. You could tell from when he was little. We never tutored or test prepped and he was self-motivated—-but frankly never had to study or struggle like other kids.

Next we will be hearing about first chairs at MCYO who never practice. Please. There exist prodigies for sure, and I've met some. Nowhere close to fill top 5, much less top 20 schools.

The PP is speaking of not needing to study as much as other kids and being highly slef motivated at school not music prodigies. The ivies are filled with naturally bright students who sailed through high school without tutors and aced the SATs and APs in the hardest classes. The vast majority of them were absolutely standout 1-2 kids in their high schools, not counting the mega donors or athletes or other big hooks. Well over half there are unhooked and were superstars in their high school. The adjustment that most will just be around average at the ivy can be hard. It is a significant mental toll on some.

The brilliant kids I know study most of the time, typically more than average kids. However, they study much harder material, so they perform at a much higher level.

I know a kid who won a silver medal at IPHO as a HS sophomore. It's no secret that he studies all day long, he will tell you this. I don't think he has a tutor in an ordinary sense, but he certainly has a lot of support. You don't get to that level on your own, just like you are not winning the Menuhin by being self-taught.

So, yes, these kids don't need to study much to get a 5 at AP, but they need to study just as much to go beyond that.

I wish brilliant lazy kids were more sought after but I don't think this is the case.

Not in my house. It's funny--every year I told my sons when they were screwing around 'hey- next year you won't be able to do this, things are really going to ramp up'. I said this going into their private HS and every year...including 'Junior year is no joke. You aren't going to have time.' My husband always was telling them they weren't doing any of the study stuff for ACT blah, blah...

My youngest just said to me when I warned him about how hard Junior year was going to be "you always say that". Oldest graduate with straight As and is headed to an Ivy next year. Younger brother also has straight As and also 5s AP exams.

The older one does study more than the younger one ever has (barely see him study), but nothing compared to peers.

I am at a job with a huge amount of attrition because it is production based, critical thinking and a lot of writing. My friend's husband asked why I never work voluntary overtime to get stuff done and how do I have so much free time when his wife can barely hang on.

We have great memories in my family. We absorb info fast. Good critical thinking skills. Read fast, but thorough. High processing speed, etc.

At my dad's funeral (organic chemist), his friends were joking about my dad 'the party guy'. They said he would come into the lab and tell them ---get out, let's have some fun--while they struggled. They said 'that son-of-a-b*ch was a genius. Never had to study, etc.' lol

This is easy for many kids. Some of those kids use the time to ramp up. They are performing at much higher level than your kids.

The world is filled with people of different performance levels. We acknowledge it for athletes but rarely when it comes to intelligence: there are real quantifiable differences as this thread shows and anyone who teaches students knows

Wtf does that mean? Your not making the case you think you are making.

Very few kids have the talent to go D1. Just like very few kids have the raw intelligence for an Ivy. A D1 coach isn't taking a kid that no matter how much they work--just can't get to that level--good, but not outstanding.