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Anonymous wrote:I don’t know that kids are better off or happier not having to go to aftercare or staying until closing. Avoiding that never entered my decision making, which,’along with sharing the drop off and pick up load, led to both of us being able to have the careers we wanted.

???

Shouldn’t you know if your OWN kids are better off or happier avoiding aftercare? I won’t speak for everyone’s children, but mine absolutely HATED aftercare and it stressed them out horribly.

PP to whom You are responding. My kids loved aftercare and camp. Their aftercare took care of all homework so when they got home our evenings weren’t filled with a to do list. They taught my kids to sew and all kinds of other things. Plus my kids got to play with their friends. They had plenty of time to play with each other outside of those hours. They fed my kids a ln early dinner though they’d eat again at home. They also did camp on school days off so I never scrambled for care on teacher work days. And they did a summer camp so when they were little and didn’t like a lot of change, they could just stay in their regular childcare. It was a good gig. Went from age 3 to 13.

Taught to sew and fed dinner? Where is this mythical place?

+1 where was this??

Silver Spring.

So a private company?

Isn't most aftercare private?

NP no. Most aftercare is ran through the county out of the public schools. It's very similar to lord of the flies. About 100 K-5 mixed together with only 2 teachers. Kids running everywhere, bullying, the 5th graders were teaching the K about sexual things. It was awful and I got my kids out as soon as I realized. Ours is free for low income kids, so it's heavily used, overcrowded and the county doesn't fund it enough. My kids went to daycare and it was nothing like this at all. Complete chaos.

Wow. Maybe the aftercare at your school is like this, but mine is not. Very organized, well run and fully staffed. Kids get a lot of time outdoors and can also take classes such as art, stem club, chess, sports, while in aftercare at our school.

What school? Pp was describing APS pretty accurately. Who is running stem club and sports programs — the people who our program hires are generally high school grads who basically break up fights and chill.

It sounds like this is school by school. My kid is at an APS school and he doesnt go to aftercare, but we often play at a park nearby after school and so I see what is going on a lot of days when we walk back. They are almost always outside and the kids look like they are having a blast. Well staffed. Again this is coming from someone that has adjusted work hours to not do after care because that works best for our family, but we should all recognize that not all aftercare is the same! I would definitely be comfortable sending my APS kid to this one if that made sense for our family schedule wise/I couldnt' flex my schedule.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being a stay at home mom is very acceptable in Muslim culture, but somehow we are backwards. We are raised to only work if we need the income. I think it’s great we have choices. The biggest problem comes when you work and your husband isn’t pulling his weight. That happens a lot. I know there are a lot of women on here with great husbands but the majority of women are tired and would like a partner. They don’t want a helper or occasional babysitter and that’s what some men end of being. It truly sucks and there isn’t a lot you can do to see what kind of dad the guy will be. Men change. It easier to clean up when you don’t have kids and younger. There is also all the mental energy we need to put into having kids. I’m burned out at a PT working mom, but I also get tired as a stay at home mom. Having choices is great but a lot of use are still tired when the kids are younger, special needs etc.

Haha you raise a good point that when other cultures think a wife should be SAH, it's viewed as backwards/regressive but if a white suburban American mom does it it's aspirational.

No that wasn’t my point at all. My point was we don’t get as worked up about what is right or wrong. Most Muslim women have the choice to stay at home and it’s non issue with their husbands. A lot of Muslim women start working when the kids get older and a lot of the religious ones volunteer to organize the kids activities at the mosque. It’s awesome we have choices and I do feel more supported in my community. Some of us work and some of us do not. It rarely comes up in conversation. Maybe religious people have less anxiety about a spouse dying, divorce etc

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Anonymous wrote:We have a 4.5 year-old and a baby just over 1. Baby in full day daycare and the older one has done DCPS PreK + aftercare for the past two years which he loved. Now in summer camp + aftercare, though he deeply misses all his school friends (who scatter to the wind during the summer).

Two kids is wild. One of us is home by 545 with the kids, dinner, play, bath time, etc. Our oldest kid won't go to bed at 715pm anymore and is stretching out bed time + longer daylight hours. We don't get a free moment until 9pm; it's killing us. Have a long list of babysitters and we rotate through them, it's been nice to get out of the house in the evening once the baby is down for the night.

Strongly considering an au pair. We can afford it ($250K x 2 jobs). Would be super helpful for getting kids ready in the AM, picking up our oldest kid from school/camp, packing the lunch box, etc.

Get a real nanny. At your income you can afford it and sounds like you really need the help

Why get a "real nanny"? I'd need to hire a top-notch nanny for her to cover everything my baby does in his Montessori daycare (with instructors who have college degrees). So probably at least $70K after-tax to get a high quality nanny. Doesn't seem worth it.

Literally only need an extra set of hands for 1 hour in the morning and 3 hours in the evening. Plus have an au pair do sporadic kid stuff - laundry, lunch boxes, straightening up their rooms - throughout the week. I don't think an au pair would even hit 40 hours with us in a week.

You do you. I'm not a fan of kids taking care of kids and especially babies.

What are you talking about? Our au pair is 26 with a college degree. She's using her au pair year to perfect her English so she can get a job with a multinational company when she goes home. She's absolutely an adult and is fantastic.

At our aftercare a parent came to pick up their kid with their leashed dog. Apparently a kid asked to pet the dog and the adult said okay. Then the dog lunged and bit the child in the face. The bleeding kid ran to the bathroom. The parent with the dog left. The aftercare staff saw *none* of this, even though all the kids were aware and there was a big commotion. When the parent of the bleeding kid showed up for pickup the staff still had no idea. The kid ended up needing several stitches on his face. It was a huge deal at our school.

I don't even consider aftercare to be childcare--no one actually watches or cares for the kids. It's basically a fee you pay so your child can hang at the school until you get off work. We're much happier with our au pair.

My nephew was in aftercare and when my sister would pick him up, he was literally sitting alone under a play structure, without a book or friends, bored and tired. She finally pulled him out because they did *nothing* with the kids. I’m not sure why these places advertise “activities” when they don’t even play a round of Uno with the kids.

I worked at a Montessori school that offered aftercare. By 3 pm we are tired as f***. They play outside for an hour or longer, have snack and play with toys. Teachers can’t do group activities all day. We get tired.

Anonymous wrote:Being a stay at home mom is very acceptable in Muslim culture, but somehow we are backwards. We are raised to only work if we need the income. I think it’s great we have choices. The biggest problem comes when you work and your husband isn’t pulling his weight. That happens a lot. I know there are a lot of women on here with great husbands but the majority of women are tired and would like a partner. They don’t want a helper or occasional babysitter and that’s what some men end of being. It truly sucks and there isn’t a lot you can do to see what kind of dad the guy will be. Men change. It easier to clean up when you don’t have kids and younger. There is also all the mental energy we need to put into having kids. I’m burned out at a PT working mom, but I also get tired as a stay at home mom. Having choices is great but a lot of use are still tired when the kids are younger, special needs etc.

Haha you raise a good point that when other cultures think a wife should be SAH, it's viewed as backwards/regressive but if a white suburban American mom does it it's aspirational.

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Anonymous wrote:I'm the parent who keeps the flex schedule so kids aren't in SACC till 6 or stuck in camp aftercare which is ALWAYS terrible. But my career is so stymied by being parent friendly. Really wish we had focused on breadwinner SAHM model rather than equality and "do it all" fallacy.

That's all. Off to pick up my kids from camp.

+1 In your same boat OP. My husband was working in big law when I had my first and told me he'd happily be the breadwinner if I wanted to stay at home. I blame years of indoctrination from my education and even my own parents that WOMEN MUST HAVE A CAREER AND YES THEY CAN HAVE IT ALL, I chose to stay in my well paid but stressful consulting job. As much as it hurt to see my baby get whisked off by a nanny (yes, we had the privilege of affording a nanny but I still didn't love the arrangement), I just could not give up my career. I didn't even love my job, but I loved that I had a career and that's what my peers and society told me I had to have.

Fast forward 5 years, we've had a second kid and husband now works as a government lawyer. I essentially had to mommy track at some point and now I'm neither here nor there. No longer work for the prestigious big name company but still have to keep working so I'm constantly stretched thing as the primary back-up care person, especially in the summer.

Wish I had chosen to be a SAHM when the chance was there. Or not had kids. Or just had one.

When we decide to go to college or grad school, we don't also tell ourselves we just have to have that full-time job simultaneously. Nor do most people embark starting a business, or starting a family as an undergraduate. For some phases of life we understand that it is full commitment.
Strangely enough, when we birth utterly dependent creatures, we (men and women) think it's optional to have a career and optional to care for the child.

We have an entire system of student loans, dorms, financial aid, work study, etc that makes that full commitment possible for many. (And there are many people who DO work through college too). Other countries have long parental leaves and more flexibility for mothers to work part time due to health insurance benefits not being tied to full-time employment. We have NO system for parents to stay at home for 5 years PER KID and then return to work other than "marry someone whose salary can support you all," which is not a system that works for anyone making a median salary these days. So what would you look to see happen to recognize the full commitment needed?

Dp. I’m a firm believer that ‘a man is not a plan’- I’ve seen many families suffer when you put all your income in one persons basket. It’s just not smart for a variety of reasons. BUT the mom load is real. More people need to buy houses on one salary, the McMansion culture is ridiculous and exists nowhere else in the world. One parent should work part time. We need to stop putting dual income pressure on families.

WTF are you talking about? McMansion culture? This is DC. You get 1500 square feet for $1 million.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 4.5 year-old and a baby just over 1. Baby in full day daycare and the older one has done DCPS PreK + aftercare for the past two years which he loved. Now in summer camp + aftercare, though he deeply misses all his school friends (who scatter to the wind during the summer).

Two kids is wild. One of us is home by 545 with the kids, dinner, play, bath time, etc. Our oldest kid won't go to bed at 715pm anymore and is stretching out bed time + longer daylight hours. We don't get a free moment until 9pm; it's killing us. Have a long list of babysitters and we rotate through them, it's been nice to get out of the house in the evening once the baby is down for the night.

Strongly considering an au pair. We can afford it ($250K x 2 jobs). Would be super helpful for getting kids ready in the AM, picking up our oldest kid from school/camp, packing the lunch box, etc.

Get a real nanny. At your income you can afford it and sounds like you really need the help

Why get a "real nanny"? I'd need to hire a top-notch nanny for her to cover everything my baby does in his Montessori daycare (with instructors who have college degrees). So probably at least $70K after-tax to get a high quality nanny. Doesn't seem worth it.

Literally only need an extra set of hands for 1 hour in the morning and 3 hours in the evening. Plus have an au pair do sporadic kid stuff - laundry, lunch boxes, straightening up their rooms - throughout the week. I don't think an au pair would even hit 40 hours with us in a week.

You do you. I'm not a fan of kids taking care of kids and especially babies.

What are you talking about? Our au pair is 26 with a college degree. She's using her au pair year to perfect her English so she can get a job with a multinational company when she goes home. She's absolutely an adult and is fantastic.

At our aftercare a parent came to pick up their kid with their leashed dog. Apparently a kid asked to pet the dog and the adult said okay. Then the dog lunged and bit the child in the face. The bleeding kid ran to the bathroom. The parent with the dog left. The aftercare staff saw *none* of this, even though all the kids were aware and there was a big commotion. When the parent of the bleeding kid showed up for pickup the staff still had no idea. The kid ended up needing several stitches on his face. It was a huge deal at our school.

I don't even consider aftercare to be childcare--no one actually watches or cares for the kids. It's basically a fee you pay so your child can hang at the school until you get off work. We're much happier with our au pair.

My nephew was in aftercare and when my sister would pick him up, he was literally sitting alone under a play structure, without a book or friends, bored and tired. She finally pulled him out because they did *nothing* with the kids. I’m not sure why these places advertise “activities” when they don’t even play a round of Uno with the kids.

Being a stay at home mom is very acceptable in Muslim culture, but somehow we are backwards. We are raised to only work if we need the income. I think it’s great we have choices. The biggest problem comes when you work and your husband isn’t pulling his weight. That happens a lot. I know there are a lot of women on here with great husbands but the majority of women are tired and would like a partner. They don’t want a helper or occasional babysitter and that’s what some men end of being. It truly sucks and there isn’t a lot you can do to see what kind of dad the guy will be. Men change. It easier to clean up when you don’t have kids and younger. There is also all the mental energy we need to put into having kids. I’m burned out at a PT working mom, but I also get tired as a stay at home mom. Having choices is great but a lot of use are still tired when the kids are younger, special needs etc.

Anonymous wrote:I'm the parent who keeps the flex schedule so kids aren't in SACC till 6 or stuck in camp aftercare which is ALWAYS terrible. But my career is so stymied by being parent friendly. Really wish we had focused on breadwinner SAHM model rather than equality and "do it all" fallacy.

That's all. Off to pick up my kids from camp.

I agree, it is so tough. I chose to do the SAHM model b/c I burned outs, but I am stressed now because DH does not appreciate it / is disrespectful (he initially said he respected it), and I don’t think my overall stress has decreased (although my relationship with my kids is much better than when I was working). I am now struggling to return to work / find a job after a long absence. I think if spouse is really truly on board with decision to either work or SAH, either situation can be manageable (although being a working mom is definitely super intense and hard), but if spouse is not, either situation sucks. That’s just my anecdotal take as I’m feeling a bit depressed right now.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the parent who keeps the flex schedule so kids aren't in SACC till 6 or stuck in camp aftercare which is ALWAYS terrible. But my career is so stymied by being parent friendly. Really wish we had focused on breadwinner SAHM model rather than equality and "do it all" fallacy.

That's all. Off to pick up my kids from camp.

+1 In your same boat OP. My husband was working in big law when I had my first and told me he'd happily be the breadwinner if I wanted to stay at home. I blame years of indoctrination from my education and even my own parents that WOMEN MUST HAVE A CAREER AND YES THEY CAN HAVE IT ALL, I chose to stay in my well paid but stressful consulting job. As much as it hurt to see my baby get whisked off by a nanny (yes, we had the privilege of affording a nanny but I still didn't love the arrangement), I just could not give up my career. I didn't even love my job, but I loved that I had a career and that's what my peers and society told me I had to have.

Fast forward 5 years, we've had a second kid and husband now works as a government lawyer. I essentially had to mommy track at some point and now I'm neither here nor there. No longer work for the prestigious big name company but still have to keep working so I'm constantly stretched thing as the primary back-up care person, especially in the summer.

Wish I had chosen to be a SAHM when the chance was there. Or not had kids. Or just had one.

Do you think your DH would have remained BigLaw if you had SAH? If not then living off a gov lawyer salary may have required sacrifice you may or may not have tolerated.

We would have to live off my spouse salary, which would have meant some exurb with a long commute for him, I doubt he would have stepped up to a Big Career. That said I’m a simple person so that is very attractive; all I would miss is the travel budget.

There is a huge range of jobs between "Big Law" and "govt lawyer". DP: but I suspect her husband could have found a higher paying job than "govt lawyer" had she been a SAHP.
Or as you said, you adjust your standard of living accordingly

Anonymous wrote:Posted too early... to make myself feel better i read DCUM trashing SAHMs and how women must have economic independence and SAHMs will suffer when the husbands cheats. WHen in real life the women I know who are SAHMs are doing quite jolly and enjoy a wonderful relationship with their kids and have time for some self-care.

(Except for one, but she was the one who cheated and fully deserves the mess her life became).

Key is being comfortable in your marriage and communication. We chose for me to be SAHM. I was making $100K+ 25 years ago. I had a great career and we could have easily afforded a great nanny. But we didn't think it was fair to our kids to have two parents in high powered careers and have us both traveling extensively. And I wanted to be with the kids---we waited until 30s to have them, so I had worked and made my choice. I knew my spouse would go further in his career (I had no desire to go into management, I just loved my job). So I stayed at home. Spouse advanced quickly, and it is easier to do if you have no worries about picking kids up, having to take day off/work from home (25 years ago) because it's "your day to be with the sick kid" or having to say "nope I cannot travel that week, because my wife has to travel for work so I'm on kid duty after hours."
Everyone is happier because it's "calmer at home". The kids don't have to be in bed at X time because they have to get up at 6am to get to daycare by 7am. Evenings and mornings were much more enjoyable for all.

But I would not have done that if I were not considered an equal by my spouse. Then again, I wouldn't have had kids with a partner who didn't value that.

We've done dh working a high pressure job with high potential, and me wah PT and now with older kids FT. It's working out just fine. My brother and sil are 50% earning, 50% caregiving and entirely equal in all ways. It's working out just fine. I don't think there is a one scenario fits all depending on individual needs, wants and specific jobs.

I’m going to tell my daughter that if she wants to do 50% or more of house/childcare, she needs to focus on gunning her career as hard as she can in her 20’s so that she will have the skills and connections to make an alternate path while her kids are young. If she wants to outsource, she has to make or marry enough money to do that (actually we could also give it to her). If she wants a male partner to do 50% or more, she’s going to have to really prioritize that when she’s dating because it’s hard to find.

I was a PT nanny all throughout undergrad and noticed a lot of the working moms and even stay at home moms were frustrated! One time a dad apologized the house was a mess because Kate his wife who works FT couldn’t get to it! These were families who could afford to hire a nanny. I made sure I was crystal clear to my boyfriend that I wanted to stay at home with my kids. Culturally it’s also very acceptable for Muslim women to stay at home with the kids so this wasn’t a big deal with most of the men I dated. I actually work PT now and it’s hard to balance that! It’s hard being a woman in the US unless you have a lot of money and can hire lots of help or have a husband who truly does half of the housework. My dh doesn’t do much unless I nag him and after awhile I get tired of asking. I can’t think of a single mom I know who isn’t tired.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the parent who keeps the flex schedule so kids aren't in SACC till 6 or stuck in camp aftercare which is ALWAYS terrible. But my career is so stymied by being parent friendly. Really wish we had focused on breadwinner SAHM model rather than equality and "do it all" fallacy.

That's all. Off to pick up my kids from camp.

+1 In your same boat OP. My husband was working in big law when I had my first and told me he'd happily be the breadwinner if I wanted to stay at home. I blame years of indoctrination from my education and even my own parents that WOMEN MUST HAVE A CAREER AND YES THEY CAN HAVE IT ALL, I chose to stay in my well paid but stressful consulting job. As much as it hurt to see my baby get whisked off by a nanny (yes, we had the privilege of affording a nanny but I still didn't love the arrangement), I just could not give up my career. I didn't even love my job, but I loved that I had a career and that's what my peers and society told me I had to have.

Fast forward 5 years, we've had a second kid and husband now works as a government lawyer. I essentially had to mommy track at some point and now I'm neither here nor there. No longer work for the prestigious big name company but still have to keep working so I'm constantly stretched thing as the primary back-up care person, especially in the summer.

Wish I had chosen to be a SAHM when the chance was there. Or not had kids. Or just had one.

When we decide to go to college or grad school, we don't also tell ourselves we just have to have that full-time job simultaneously. Nor do most people embark starting a business, or starting a family as an undergraduate. For some phases of life we understand that it is full commitment.
Strangely enough, when we birth utterly dependent creatures, we (men and women) think it's optional to have a career and optional to care for the child.

We have an entire system of student loans, dorms, financial aid, work study, etc that makes that full commitment possible for many. (And there are many people who DO work through college too). Other countries have long parental leaves and more flexibility for mothers to work part time due to health insurance benefits not being tied to full-time employment. We have NO system for parents to stay at home for 5 years PER KID and then return to work other than "marry someone whose salary can support you all," which is not a system that works for anyone making a median salary these days. So what would you look to see happen to recognize the full commitment needed?

Dp. I’m a firm believer that ‘a man is not a plan’- I’ve seen many families suffer when you put all your income in one persons basket. It’s just not smart for a variety of reasons. BUT the mom load is real. More people need to buy houses on one salary, the McMansion culture is ridiculous and exists nowhere else in the world. One parent should work part time. We need to stop putting dual income pressure on families.

It’s not McMansions, it’s the price of land with okay commutes. And education and medical costs. Granite countertops aren’t moving the needle.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the parent who keeps the flex schedule so kids aren't in SACC till 6 or stuck in camp aftercare which is ALWAYS terrible. But my career is so stymied by being parent friendly. Really wish we had focused on breadwinner SAHM model rather than equality and "do it all" fallacy.

That's all. Off to pick up my kids from camp.

+1 In your same boat OP. My husband was working in big law when I had my first and told me he'd happily be the breadwinner if I wanted to stay at home. I blame years of indoctrination from my education and even my own parents that WOMEN MUST HAVE A CAREER AND YES THEY CAN HAVE IT ALL, I chose to stay in my well paid but stressful consulting job. As much as it hurt to see my baby get whisked off by a nanny (yes, we had the privilege of affording a nanny but I still didn't love the arrangement), I just could not give up my career. I didn't even love my job, but I loved that I had a career and that's what my peers and society told me I had to have.

Fast forward 5 years, we've had a second kid and husband now works as a government lawyer. I essentially had to mommy track at some point and now I'm neither here nor there. No longer work for the prestigious big name company but still have to keep working so I'm constantly stretched thing as the primary back-up care person, especially in the summer.

Wish I had chosen to be a SAHM when the chance was there. Or not had kids. Or just had one.

When we decide to go to college or grad school, we don't also tell ourselves we just have to have that full-time job simultaneously. Nor do most people embark starting a business, or starting a family as an undergraduate. For some phases of life we understand that it is full commitment.
Strangely enough, when we birth utterly dependent creatures, we (men and women) think it's optional to have a career and optional to care for the child.

We have an entire system of student loans, dorms, financial aid, work study, etc that makes that full commitment possible for many. (And there are many people who DO work through college too). Other countries have long parental leaves and more flexibility for mothers to work part time due to health insurance benefits not being tied to full-time employment. We have NO system for parents to stay at home for 5 years PER KID and then return to work other than "marry someone whose salary can support you all," which is not a system that works for anyone making a median salary these days. So what would you look to see happen to recognize the full commitment needed?

Dp. I’m a firm believer that ‘a man is not a plan’- I’ve seen many families suffer when you put all your income in one persons basket. It’s just not smart for a variety of reasons. BUT the mom load is real. More people need to buy houses on one salary, the McMansion culture is ridiculous and exists nowhere else in the world. One parent should work part time. We need to stop putting dual income pressure on families.