Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in Germany right now and I can see a constant, uneasy standoff between ethnic Germans and the new arrivals from Arab nations. During the Spain/Germany soccer game last night, about a dozen police in riot gear were standing across the street from a döner restaurant, ready for action. And it was clear that action had already occurred, as one man was watching the game with bloody tissue stuffed up his nose and nursing a puffy cheek. There were no police outside of the restaurants with white and East Asian clientele.

Around 1030am this morning, a man walked around the downtown area holding a blue bottle of liquor, pausing occasionally to pick up entire metal trash cans (the public type for pedestrians) and heaving them to and fro. Police showed up-- lots of them-- and arrested him. Watching the scene unfold, a random German mam turned to us and said "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have these problems."

It occurred to me that in the US, no police would show up for fights or public disturbances. And no way, ever, would police wait outside a restaurant frequented by an ethnic minority. No matter what was happening there. Germans are orderly people and absolutely will not stand for this kind of hooliganism. We are much more tolerant of crime and tend to support perpetrators over victims. So I get why Europe is taking such a sharp right ward turn. This is completely upsetting their culture of order, safety, and respect.

I’m not sure what to make of your post aside from the fact you have made overarching observations based on just two incidents. You’re in Germany during the euros and there are riot police and tensions? Are you not at all aware of the long history of hooliganism and soccer in Europe? Of course the police are ready for trouble. You clearly didn’t see the pictures of the violent clashes between Serbs and English fans. It’s the biggest deployment of police since 1951!

You also seem unaware that doners are the most popular snack food in Germany. Everyone goes to them, not just ‘ethnics’. Exactly the sort of place hyped up and aggressive soccer fans will get something to eat after a match. Not surprising police might have been nearby. Probably not a lot action at the Chinese takeaway.

You mention tension with new arrivals. Who exactly do you mean? You realise about 5% of the population is Turkish and many are 4th or 5th generation? Many Turks Wenge too Germany as migrant workers in the 1960s. Or you mean the Syrian refugees admitted by Angela Merkel. Can you even tell the difference?

Be careful about extrapolating from a couple of incidents when you don’t actually have a good understanding of a place.

I have quite a long history with Germany. Re-read my post. The police were stationed in front of döner spots, and the clientele during this game was indeed almost entirely Arab. The police WERE NOT outside of the restaurants with ethnically German and/or East Asian clientele. They weren't. I saw this with my own eyes, and you're free to disbelieve that but you can't tell me I didn't see what I saw.

As you point out, the Turks have been in Germany for generations and cannot be considered new arrivals. The Turkish population has assimilated. I am instead referring to the nearly 25% of Germany's population with an immigrant background in the traditional sense (not 3rd or 4th generation guest worker sense). The most common nation of origin for immigrants to Germany is Syria.

I'm not making generalizations based on one experience. I'm making them based on a palpable vibe shift that has occurred over the course of a decade, which I've observed both in person and in discussions with ethnically German relatives and friends.

You can cover your eyes and pretend this isn't happening, like people pretended that Biden has the youth and vigor of a much younger man. It doesn't change it. Europe is, without question, taking a dramatic swing to the right, and they are telling you why. You can believe they are unjustified, but they live in democracies and get to have a say on the issues in their nations.

And also, take a context clue. I said the man said to us "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have this problem." In Germany. So he spoke to us in German with the assumption that we were German. This should tell you that I don't need to be lectured about döners.

What you say may well be valid and I also happen to believe that rapid large scale immigration can be problematic, but giving the example of one ‘ethnic’ man tipping over bins, riot police outside a doner place and one ‘native’ complaining about migrants is far from a compelling argument. Whether he complained in English or German is irrelevant. I guarantee I could produce one old guy in just about any country who will complain about migrants. It just seems like you’re cherrypicking a couple of incidents to substantiate your own opinions.

It seems like you're ignoring data. You know the right is ascending in Europe. They are telling us why. And my own observations match the data.

You're in complete denial. Upthread, someone responded to my post by saying that they hope that the Arabs wipe out the ethnic Germans. It's unclear why you think that Europeans will sit idly by while people literally plot and hope for their genocide. Europe is famous for its ability to aggressively expand and dominate; that has been its historical tendency. I'm guessing that the genocide of Europeans will not be as easy as you expect.

Also, let's be completely clear. You, and only you, have referred to the Arabs as "ethnics."

You haven’t actually presented any data, just a couple of anecdotes. Some data would be welcome please.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in Germany right now and I can see a constant, uneasy standoff between ethnic Germans and the new arrivals from Arab nations. During the Spain/Germany soccer game last night, about a dozen police in riot gear were standing across the street from a döner restaurant, ready for action. And it was clear that action had already occurred, as one man was watching the game with bloody tissue stuffed up his nose and nursing a puffy cheek. There were no police outside of the restaurants with white and East Asian clientele.

Around 1030am this morning, a man walked around the downtown area holding a blue bottle of liquor, pausing occasionally to pick up entire metal trash cans (the public type for pedestrians) and heaving them to and fro. Police showed up-- lots of them-- and arrested him. Watching the scene unfold, a random German mam turned to us and said "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have these problems."

It occurred to me that in the US, no police would show up for fights or public disturbances. And no way, ever, would police wait outside a restaurant frequented by an ethnic minority. No matter what was happening there. Germans are orderly people and absolutely will not stand for this kind of hooliganism. We are much more tolerant of crime and tend to support perpetrators over victims. So I get why Europe is taking such a sharp right ward turn. This is completely upsetting their culture of order, safety, and respect.

I’m not sure what to make of your post aside from the fact you have made overarching observations based on just two incidents. You’re in Germany during the euros and there are riot police and tensions? Are you not at all aware of the long history of hooliganism and soccer in Europe? Of course the police are ready for trouble. You clearly didn’t see the pictures of the violent clashes between Serbs and English fans. It’s the biggest deployment of police since 1951!

You also seem unaware that doners are the most popular snack food in Germany. Everyone goes to them, not just ‘ethnics’. Exactly the sort of place hyped up and aggressive soccer fans will get something to eat after a match. Not surprising police might have been nearby. Probably not a lot action at the Chinese takeaway.

You mention tension with new arrivals. Who exactly do you mean? You realise about 5% of the population is Turkish and many are 4th or 5th generation? Many Turks Wenge too Germany as migrant workers in the 1960s. Or you mean the Syrian refugees admitted by Angela Merkel. Can you even tell the difference?

Be careful about extrapolating from a couple of incidents when you don’t actually have a good understanding of a place.

I have quite a long history with Germany. Re-read my post. The police were stationed in front of döner spots, and the clientele during this game was indeed almost entirely Arab. The police WERE NOT outside of the restaurants with ethnically German and/or East Asian clientele. They weren't. I saw this with my own eyes, and you're free to disbelieve that but you can't tell me I didn't see what I saw.

As you point out, the Turks have been in Germany for generations and cannot be considered new arrivals. The Turkish population has assimilated. I am instead referring to the nearly 25% of Germany's population with an immigrant background in the traditional sense (not 3rd or 4th generation guest worker sense). The most common nation of origin for immigrants to Germany is Syria.

I'm not making generalizations based on one experience. I'm making them based on a palpable vibe shift that has occurred over the course of a decade, which I've observed both in person and in discussions with ethnically German relatives and friends.

You can cover your eyes and pretend this isn't happening, like people pretended that Biden has the youth and vigor of a much younger man. It doesn't change it. Europe is, without question, taking a dramatic swing to the right, and they are telling you why. You can believe they are unjustified, but they live in democracies and get to have a say on the issues in their nations.

And also, take a context clue. I said the man said to us "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have this problem." In Germany. So he spoke to us in German with the assumption that we were German. This should tell you that I don't need to be lectured about döners.

What you say may well be valid and I also happen to believe that rapid large scale immigration can be problematic, but giving the example of one ‘ethnic’ man tipping over bins, riot police outside a doner place and one ‘native’ complaining about migrants is far from a compelling argument. Whether he complained in English or German is irrelevant. I guarantee I could produce one old guy in just about any country who will complain about migrants. It just seems like you’re cherrypicking a couple of incidents to substantiate your own opinions.

It seems like you're ignoring data. You know the right is ascending in Europe. They are telling us why. And my own observations match the data.

You're in complete denial. Upthread, someone responded to my post by saying that they hope that the Arabs wipe out the ethnic Germans. It's unclear why you think that Europeans will sit idly by while people literally plot and hope for their genocide. Europe is famous for its ability to aggressively expand and dominate; that has been its historical tendency. I'm guessing that the genocide of Europeans will not be as easy as you expect.

Also, let's be completely clear. You, and only you, have referred to the Arabs as "ethnics."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in Germany right now and I can see a constant, uneasy standoff between ethnic Germans and the new arrivals from Arab nations. During the Spain/Germany soccer game last night, about a dozen police in riot gear were standing across the street from a döner restaurant, ready for action. And it was clear that action had already occurred, as one man was watching the game with bloody tissue stuffed up his nose and nursing a puffy cheek. There were no police outside of the restaurants with white and East Asian clientele.

Around 1030am this morning, a man walked around the downtown area holding a blue bottle of liquor, pausing occasionally to pick up entire metal trash cans (the public type for pedestrians) and heaving them to and fro. Police showed up-- lots of them-- and arrested him. Watching the scene unfold, a random German mam turned to us and said "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have these problems."

It occurred to me that in the US, no police would show up for fights or public disturbances. And no way, ever, would police wait outside a restaurant frequented by an ethnic minority. No matter what was happening there. Germans are orderly people and absolutely will not stand for this kind of hooliganism. We are much more tolerant of crime and tend to support perpetrators over victims. So I get why Europe is taking such a sharp right ward turn. This is completely upsetting their culture of order, safety, and respect.

I’m not sure what to make of your post aside from the fact you have made overarching observations based on just two incidents. You’re in Germany during the euros and there are riot police and tensions? Are you not at all aware of the long history of hooliganism and soccer in Europe? Of course the police are ready for trouble. You clearly didn’t see the pictures of the violent clashes between Serbs and English fans. It’s the biggest deployment of police since 1951!

You also seem unaware that doners are the most popular snack food in Germany. Everyone goes to them, not just ‘ethnics’. Exactly the sort of place hyped up and aggressive soccer fans will get something to eat after a match. Not surprising police might have been nearby. Probably not a lot action at the Chinese takeaway.

You mention tension with new arrivals. Who exactly do you mean? You realise about 5% of the population is Turkish and many are 4th or 5th generation? Many Turks Wenge too Germany as migrant workers in the 1960s. Or you mean the Syrian refugees admitted by Angela Merkel. Can you even tell the difference?

Be careful about extrapolating from a couple of incidents when you don’t actually have a good understanding of a place.

I have quite a long history with Germany. Re-read my post. The police were stationed in front of döner spots, and the clientele during this game was indeed almost entirely Arab. The police WERE NOT outside of the restaurants with ethnically German and/or East Asian clientele. They weren't. I saw this with my own eyes, and you're free to disbelieve that but you can't tell me I didn't see what I saw.

As you point out, the Turks have been in Germany for generations and cannot be considered new arrivals. The Turkish population has assimilated. I am instead referring to the nearly 25% of Germany's population with an immigrant background in the traditional sense (not 3rd or 4th generation guest worker sense). The most common nation of origin for immigrants to Germany is Syria.

I'm not making generalizations based on one experience. I'm making them based on a palpable vibe shift that has occurred over the course of a decade, which I've observed both in person and in discussions with ethnically German relatives and friends.

You can cover your eyes and pretend this isn't happening, like people pretended that Biden has the youth and vigor of a much younger man. It doesn't change it. Europe is, without question, taking a dramatic swing to the right, and they are telling you why. You can believe they are unjustified, but they live in democracies and get to have a say on the issues in their nations.

And also, take a context clue. I said the man said to us "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have this problem." In Germany. So he spoke to us in German with the assumption that we were German. This should tell you that I don't need to be lectured about döners.

What you say may well be valid and I also happen to believe that rapid large scale immigration can be problematic, but giving the example of one ‘ethnic’ man tipping over bins, riot police outside a doner place and one ‘native’ complaining about migrants is far from a compelling argument. Whether he complained in English or German is irrelevant. I guarantee I could produce one old guy in just about any country who will complain about migrants. It just seems like you’re cherrypicking a couple of incidents to substantiate your own opinions.

It seems like you're ignoring data. You know the right is ascending in Europe. They are telling us why. And my own observations match the data.

You're in complete denial. Upthread, someone responded to my post by saying that they hope that the Arabs wipe out the ethnic Germans. It's unclear why you think that Europeans will sit idly by while people literally plot and hope for their genocide. Europe is famous for its ability to aggressively expand and dominate; that has been its historical tendency. I'm guessing that the genocide of Europeans will not be as easy as you expect.

Also, let's be completely clear. You, and only you, have referred to the Arabs as "ethnics."

It will be interesting to see results of today’s election in France. Not sure the data supports your argument as much as you think. In the last six months, 2 of the 6 largest countries in Europe have elected pro-EU (Poland) or labour (UK) governments.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in Germany right now and I can see a constant, uneasy standoff between ethnic Germans and the new arrivals from Arab nations. During the Spain/Germany soccer game last night, about a dozen police in riot gear were standing across the street from a döner restaurant, ready for action. And it was clear that action had already occurred, as one man was watching the game with bloody tissue stuffed up his nose and nursing a puffy cheek. There were no police outside of the restaurants with white and East Asian clientele.

Around 1030am this morning, a man walked around the downtown area holding a blue bottle of liquor, pausing occasionally to pick up entire metal trash cans (the public type for pedestrians) and heaving them to and fro. Police showed up-- lots of them-- and arrested him. Watching the scene unfold, a random German mam turned to us and said "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have these problems."

It occurred to me that in the US, no police would show up for fights or public disturbances. And no way, ever, would police wait outside a restaurant frequented by an ethnic minority. No matter what was happening there. Germans are orderly people and absolutely will not stand for this kind of hooliganism. We are much more tolerant of crime and tend to support perpetrators over victims. So I get why Europe is taking such a sharp right ward turn. This is completely upsetting their culture of order, safety, and respect.

I’m not sure what to make of your post aside from the fact you have made overarching observations based on just two incidents. You’re in Germany during the euros and there are riot police and tensions? Are you not at all aware of the long history of hooliganism and soccer in Europe? Of course the police are ready for trouble. You clearly didn’t see the pictures of the violent clashes between Serbs and English fans. It’s the biggest deployment of police since 1951!

You also seem unaware that doners are the most popular snack food in Germany. Everyone goes to them, not just ‘ethnics’. Exactly the sort of place hyped up and aggressive soccer fans will get something to eat after a match. Not surprising police might have been nearby. Probably not a lot action at the Chinese takeaway.

You mention tension with new arrivals. Who exactly do you mean? You realise about 5% of the population is Turkish and many are 4th or 5th generation? Many Turks Wenge too Germany as migrant workers in the 1960s. Or you mean the Syrian refugees admitted by Angela Merkel. Can you even tell the difference?

Be careful about extrapolating from a couple of incidents when you don’t actually have a good understanding of a place.

I have quite a long history with Germany. Re-read my post. The police were stationed in front of döner spots, and the clientele during this game was indeed almost entirely Arab. The police WERE NOT outside of the restaurants with ethnically German and/or East Asian clientele. They weren't. I saw this with my own eyes, and you're free to disbelieve that but you can't tell me I didn't see what I saw.

As you point out, the Turks have been in Germany for generations and cannot be considered new arrivals. The Turkish population has assimilated. I am instead referring to the nearly 25% of Germany's population with an immigrant background in the traditional sense (not 3rd or 4th generation guest worker sense). The most common nation of origin for immigrants to Germany is Syria.

I'm not making generalizations based on one experience. I'm making them based on a palpable vibe shift that has occurred over the course of a decade, which I've observed both in person and in discussions with ethnically German relatives and friends.

You can cover your eyes and pretend this isn't happening, like people pretended that Biden has the youth and vigor of a much younger man. It doesn't change it. Europe is, without question, taking a dramatic swing to the right, and they are telling you why. You can believe they are unjustified, but they live in democracies and get to have a say on the issues in their nations.

And also, take a context clue. I said the man said to us "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have this problem." In Germany. So he spoke to us in German with the assumption that we were German. This should tell you that I don't need to be lectured about döners.

What you say may well be valid and I also happen to believe that rapid large scale immigration can be problematic, but giving the example of one ‘ethnic’ man tipping over bins, riot police outside a doner place and one ‘native’ complaining about migrants is far from a compelling argument. Whether he complained in English or German is irrelevant. I guarantee I could produce one old guy in just about any country who will complain about migrants. It just seems like you’re cherrypicking a couple of incidents to substantiate your own opinions.

It seems like you're ignoring data. You know the right is ascending in Europe. They are telling us why. And my own observations match the data.

You're in complete denial. Upthread, someone responded to my post by saying that they hope that the Arabs wipe out the ethnic Germans. It's unclear why you think that Europeans will sit idly by while people literally plot and hope for their genocide. Europe is famous for its ability to aggressively expand and dominate; that has been its historical tendency. I'm guessing that the genocide of Europeans will not be as easy as you expect.

Also, let's be completely clear. You, and only you, have referred to the Arabs as "ethnics."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in Germany right now and I can see a constant, uneasy standoff between ethnic Germans and the new arrivals from Arab nations. During the Spain/Germany soccer game last night, about a dozen police in riot gear were standing across the street from a döner restaurant, ready for action. And it was clear that action had already occurred, as one man was watching the game with bloody tissue stuffed up his nose and nursing a puffy cheek. There were no police outside of the restaurants with white and East Asian clientele.

Around 1030am this morning, a man walked around the downtown area holding a blue bottle of liquor, pausing occasionally to pick up entire metal trash cans (the public type for pedestrians) and heaving them to and fro. Police showed up-- lots of them-- and arrested him. Watching the scene unfold, a random German mam turned to us and said "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have these problems."

It occurred to me that in the US, no police would show up for fights or public disturbances. And no way, ever, would police wait outside a restaurant frequented by an ethnic minority. No matter what was happening there. Germans are orderly people and absolutely will not stand for this kind of hooliganism. We are much more tolerant of crime and tend to support perpetrators over victims. So I get why Europe is taking such a sharp right ward turn. This is completely upsetting their culture of order, safety, and respect.

Omg this is gold. I hope the newcomers wipe you all out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in Germany right now and I can see a constant, uneasy standoff between ethnic Germans and the new arrivals from Arab nations. During the Spain/Germany soccer game last night, about a dozen police in riot gear were standing across the street from a döner restaurant, ready for action. And it was clear that action had already occurred, as one man was watching the game with bloody tissue stuffed up his nose and nursing a puffy cheek. There were no police outside of the restaurants with white and East Asian clientele.

Around 1030am this morning, a man walked around the downtown area holding a blue bottle of liquor, pausing occasionally to pick up entire metal trash cans (the public type for pedestrians) and heaving them to and fro. Police showed up-- lots of them-- and arrested him. Watching the scene unfold, a random German mam turned to us and said "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have these problems."

It occurred to me that in the US, no police would show up for fights or public disturbances. And no way, ever, would police wait outside a restaurant frequented by an ethnic minority. No matter what was happening there. Germans are orderly people and absolutely will not stand for this kind of hooliganism. We are much more tolerant of crime and tend to support perpetrators over victims. So I get why Europe is taking such a sharp right ward turn. This is completely upsetting their culture of order, safety, and respect.

I’m not sure what to make of your post aside from the fact you have made overarching observations based on just two incidents. You’re in Germany during the euros and there are riot police and tensions? Are you not at all aware of the long history of hooliganism and soccer in Europe? Of course the police are ready for trouble. You clearly didn’t see the pictures of the violent clashes between Serbs and English fans. It’s the biggest deployment of police since 1951!

You also seem unaware that doners are the most popular snack food in Germany. Everyone goes to them, not just ‘ethnics’. Exactly the sort of place hyped up and aggressive soccer fans will get something to eat after a match. Not surprising police might have been nearby. Probably not a lot action at the Chinese takeaway.

You mention tension with new arrivals. Who exactly do you mean? You realise about 5% of the population is Turkish and many are 4th or 5th generation? Many Turks Wenge too Germany as migrant workers in the 1960s. Or you mean the Syrian refugees admitted by Angela Merkel. Can you even tell the difference?

Be careful about extrapolating from a couple of incidents when you don’t actually have a good understanding of a place.

I have quite a long history with Germany. Re-read my post. The police were stationed in front of döner spots, and the clientele during this game was indeed almost entirely Arab. The police WERE NOT outside of the restaurants with ethnically German and/or East Asian clientele. They weren't. I saw this with my own eyes, and you're free to disbelieve that but you can't tell me I didn't see what I saw.

As you point out, the Turks have been in Germany for generations and cannot be considered new arrivals. The Turkish population has assimilated. I am instead referring to the nearly 25% of Germany's population with an immigrant background in the traditional sense (not 3rd or 4th generation guest worker sense). The most common nation of origin for immigrants to Germany is Syria.

I'm not making generalizations based on one experience. I'm making them based on a palpable vibe shift that has occurred over the course of a decade, which I've observed both in person and in discussions with ethnically German relatives and friends.

You can cover your eyes and pretend this isn't happening, like people pretended that Biden has the youth and vigor of a much younger man. It doesn't change it. Europe is, without question, taking a dramatic swing to the right, and they are telling you why. You can believe they are unjustified, but they live in democracies and get to have a say on the issues in their nations.

And also, take a context clue. I said the man said to us "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have this problem." In Germany. So he spoke to us in German with the assumption that we were German. This should tell you that I don't need to be lectured about döners.

What you say may well be valid and I also happen to believe that rapid large scale immigration can be problematic, but giving the example of one ‘ethnic’ man tipping over bins, riot police outside a doner place and one ‘native’ complaining about migrants is far from a compelling argument. Whether he complained in English or German is irrelevant. I guarantee I could produce one old guy in just about any country who will complain about migrants. It just seems like you’re cherrypicking a couple of incidents to substantiate your own opinions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in Germany right now and I can see a constant, uneasy standoff between ethnic Germans and the new arrivals from Arab nations. During the Spain/Germany soccer game last night, about a dozen police in riot gear were standing across the street from a döner restaurant, ready for action. And it was clear that action had already occurred, as one man was watching the game with bloody tissue stuffed up his nose and nursing a puffy cheek. There were no police outside of the restaurants with white and East Asian clientele.

Around 1030am this morning, a man walked around the downtown area holding a blue bottle of liquor, pausing occasionally to pick up entire metal trash cans (the public type for pedestrians) and heaving them to and fro. Police showed up-- lots of them-- and arrested him. Watching the scene unfold, a random German mam turned to us and said "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have these problems."

It occurred to me that in the US, no police would show up for fights or public disturbances. And no way, ever, would police wait outside a restaurant frequented by an ethnic minority. No matter what was happening there. Germans are orderly people and absolutely will not stand for this kind of hooliganism. We are much more tolerant of crime and tend to support perpetrators over victims. So I get why Europe is taking such a sharp right ward turn. This is completely upsetting their culture of order, safety, and respect.

I’m not sure what to make of your post aside from the fact you have made overarching observations based on just two incidents. You’re in Germany during the euros and there are riot police and tensions? Are you not at all aware of the long history of hooliganism and soccer in Europe? Of course the police are ready for trouble. You clearly didn’t see the pictures of the violent clashes between Serbs and English fans. It’s the biggest deployment of police since 1951!

You also seem unaware that doners are the most popular snack food in Germany. Everyone goes to them, not just ‘ethnics’. Exactly the sort of place hyped up and aggressive soccer fans will get something to eat after a match. Not surprising police might have been nearby. Probably not a lot action at the Chinese takeaway.

You mention tension with new arrivals. Who exactly do you mean? You realise about 5% of the population is Turkish and many are 4th or 5th generation? Many Turks Wenge too Germany as migrant workers in the 1960s. Or you mean the Syrian refugees admitted by Angela Merkel. Can you even tell the difference?

Be careful about extrapolating from a couple of incidents when you don’t actually have a good understanding of a place.

I have quite a long history with Germany. Re-read my post. The police were stationed in front of döner spots, and the clientele during this game was indeed almost entirely Arab. The police WERE NOT outside of the restaurants with ethnically German and/or East Asian clientele. They weren't. I saw this with my own eyes, and you're free to disbelieve that but you can't tell me I didn't see what I saw.

As you point out, the Turks have been in Germany for generations and cannot be considered new arrivals. The Turkish population has assimilated. I am instead referring to the nearly 25% of Germany's population with an immigrant background in the traditional sense (not 3rd or 4th generation guest worker sense). The most common nation of origin for immigrants to Germany is Syria.

I'm not making generalizations based on one experience. I'm making them based on a palpable vibe shift that has occurred over the course of a decade, which I've observed both in person and in discussions with ethnically German relatives and friends.

You can cover your eyes and pretend this isn't happening, like people pretended that Biden has the youth and vigor of a much younger man. It doesn't change it. Europe is, without question, taking a dramatic swing to the right, and they are telling you why. You can believe they are unjustified, but they live in democracies and get to have a say on the issues in their nations.

And also, take a context clue. I said the man said to us "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have this problem." In Germany. So he spoke to us in German with the assumption that we were German. This should tell you that I don't need to be lectured about döners.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been visiting Germany ever since the 1980s on a regular basis. Have seen enough in the last few years to know things have changed from even 2010. The migrants Merkel let into the country have changed things for better or for worse. And not necessary in an ideal way. You now see large groupings of unemployed young Arab/north African and African men hanging around that you never did before.

Do agree there's naiveness among the progressive left over the impact of large scale migration in a short time period. Same problem in France. And even in Britain, which probably has the best assimilation record. But it's also bringing in sectarian tensions into these countries, there were clashes between Muslims and Hindus in Britain earlier this year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a huge difference in immigration to the US and to Europe. People that come to the US mostly do so to become American. It's certainly not a smooth experience all the time. Look at the Irish. Or the Italians. Or the Mexicans. But generally, by the third generation their children are no different in attitudes and cultural norms than the descendants that came over on the Mayflower.

Europe is different. They are distinct nation states. A Swede is a Swede. A German is a German. An Italian is an Italian. But the immigrants that have been coming over to Europe over the past 15 years - mostly Arabs and those from the Maghreb - have no interest in becoming a Swede. Or a German. Or an Italian. They are not assuming the cultural and social norms of their European countries. They are bringing Iraq or Syria to Europe. And that has led to conflict, crime, resentment and so on. And it's not changing generation to generation. Most of the young people rioting, and committing crime, and harassing and assaulting women in places like France have families that have been in France for 40/50/60 years.

And Europeans are fed up. They have long felt safe in their communities. And now they don't because these immigrants are not accepting the basic cultural norms of most European countries. So they are increasingly turning to right wing anti-immigrant parties since centrists and leftists have done nothing to address their concerns.

I normally come here to troll but I have a genuine question.

Do you leftists actually believe this? Are you that detached from reality?

Anonymous wrote:There's a huge difference in immigration to the US and to Europe. People that come to the US mostly do so to become American. It's certainly not a smooth experience all the time. Look at the Irish. Or the Italians. Or the Mexicans. But generally, by the third generation their children are no different in attitudes and cultural norms than the descendants that came over on the Mayflower.

Europe is different. They are distinct nation states. A Swede is a Swede. A German is a German. An Italian is an Italian. But the immigrants that have been coming over to Europe over the past 15 years - mostly Arabs and those from the Maghreb - have no interest in becoming a Swede. Or a German. Or an Italian. They are not assuming the cultural and social norms of their European countries. They are bringing Iraq or Syria to Europe. And that has led to conflict, crime, resentment and so on. And it's not changing generation to generation. Most of the young people rioting, and committing crime, and harassing and assaulting women in places like France have families that have been in France for 40/50/60 years.

And Europeans are fed up. They have long felt safe in their communities. And now they don't because these immigrants are not accepting the basic cultural norms of most European countries. So they are increasingly turning to right wing anti-immigrant parties since centrists and leftists have done nothing to address their concerns.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in Germany right now and I can see a constant, uneasy standoff between ethnic Germans and the new arrivals from Arab nations. During the Spain/Germany soccer game last night, about a dozen police in riot gear were standing across the street from a döner restaurant, ready for action. And it was clear that action had already occurred, as one man was watching the game with bloody tissue stuffed up his nose and nursing a puffy cheek. There were no police outside of the restaurants with white and East Asian clientele.

Around 1030am this morning, a man walked around the downtown area holding a blue bottle of liquor, pausing occasionally to pick up entire metal trash cans (the public type for pedestrians) and heaving them to and fro. Police showed up-- lots of them-- and arrested him. Watching the scene unfold, a random German mam turned to us and said "if they kicked these people out, we wouldn't have these problems."

It occurred to me that in the US, no police would show up for fights or public disturbances. And no way, ever, would police wait outside a restaurant frequented by an ethnic minority. No matter what was happening there. Germans are orderly people and absolutely will not stand for this kind of hooliganism. We are much more tolerant of crime and tend to support perpetrators over victims. So I get why Europe is taking such a sharp right ward turn. This is completely upsetting their culture of order, safety, and respect.

I’m not sure what to make of your post aside from the fact you have made overarching observations based on just two incidents. You’re in Germany during the euros and there are riot police and tensions? Are you not at all aware of the long history of hooliganism and soccer in Europe? Of course the police are ready for trouble. You clearly didn’t see the pictures of the violent clashes between Serbs and English fans. It’s the biggest deployment of police since 1951!

You also seem unaware that doners are the most popular snack food in Germany. Everyone goes to them, not just ‘ethnics’. Exactly the sort of place hyped up and aggressive soccer fans will get something to eat after a match. Not surprising police might have been nearby. Probably not a lot action at the Chinese takeaway.

You mention tension with new arrivals. Who exactly do you mean? You realise about 5% of the population is Turkish and many are 4th or 5th generation? Many Turks Wenge too Germany as migrant workers in the 1960s. Or you mean the Syrian refugees admitted by Angela Merkel. Can you even tell the difference?

Be careful about extrapolating from a couple of incidents when you don’t actually have a good understanding of a place.

I have quite a long history with Germany. Re-read my post. The police were stationed in front of döner spots, and the clientele during this game was indeed almost entirely Arab. The police WERE NOT outside of the restaurants with ethnically German and/or East Asian clientele. They weren't. I saw this with my own eyes, and you're free to disbelieve that but you can't tell me I didn't see what I saw.

As you point out, the Turks have been in Germany for generations and cannot be considered new arrivals. The Turkish population has assimilated. I am instead referring to the nearly 25% of Germany's population with an immigrant background in the traditional sense (not 3rd or 4th generation guest worker sense). The most common nation of origin for immigrants to Germany is Syria.

I'm not making generalizations based on one experience. I'm making them based on a palpable vibe shift that has occurred over the course of a decade, which I've observed both in person and in discussions with ethnically German relatives and friends.

You can cover your eyes and pretend this isn't happening, like people pretended that Biden has the youth and vigor of a much younger man. It doesn't change it. Europe is, without question, taking a dramatic swing to the right, and they are telling you why. You can believe they are unjustified, but they live in democracies and get to have a say on the issues in their nations.