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Anonymous wrote:Our FA is also our CPA. We are paying him .5% annually to manage just under $3M. We have a other assets in other funds (401K, Deferred Comp, Company Stock, Stock Options, 529, donor advised fund, etc.) which he doesn't manage, but still gives advice on allocations and other issues that would have tax implications. Our total investments, including the assets he manages, are about $12M.

He also helped us update our estate plan and made sure we are insured appropriately.

We like the convenience of having a CPA who understands our tax situation manage our funds and advise us on our other funds. My husband is also approaching retirement, so it has been reassuring having someone who can help us plan, which will be in about a year.

+1

Our FA is not our CPA, but they work closely with our CPA and our Estate Planner and everyone involved in our Wealth management team. They are the "glue that holds it all together". Sure I could pay less and manage it myself. But it's nice to just call/email/text and have them manage it for me. That is what you get for your 0.5% for everything they manage (for us it's $~10M). They also advise on our 529, 401K and everything financial even if they are not collecting a fee on that portion. They handle all of our treasury/CD/short term investments with out any fees (that is much more than $10M). Making sure it's all in best options for highest return when they come due. Also follows up when some has been in CDs at banks that have gone under (there have been a few in last 2 years----that happens when you spread it all out to keep FDIC insurance). That means I don't have to have accounts at 20+ banks to manage myself. That part all comes at "no fee" to us. Sure paying $25K+ per year may seem like a lot for most people, but when you are at HNW/UHNW it's just a part of managing your finances. And a great FA makes it all run smoothly. I know, because I used to manage our CD/Treasuries/MM previously and am very happy I don't have to do it anymore.

Thanks for sharing this. You mentioned you were paying approximately $25K in fees for $10M, so is your rate .25%? And do you feel for $3M in assets that .5% is a good rate?

I think that is a good rate for $3M. Especially if they do not charge a fee for your "cash" holdings (Treasuries/CD/MM/etc) or your 529s. And are very responsive to your needs.

We have been with our FA for 20+ years. So since we were only worth $1-2M. We chose to stay with them because we trust them. Even when we made the quick switch to UHNW 3 years ago we stayed---because they showed us they could (and would ) manage everything for us, they had access to wealth management team that is amazing. At that level, most of the FA who want your business are slimy and pushy and I didn't want to work with any of them. We interviewed a few just to see and I couldn't' stomach it. They are just annoying and sleezy to me.

I like that we are most likely our FA top client, not just another UHNW/HNW family.

What in tarnation does a wealth management team do?

Help coordinate your CPA, estate planning, creating a foundation, etc. Not something most people need, but when you hit the UHNW ($30M+) there are many new issues that need to be addressed. We have an estate consultant (not our lawyer) who for no fee will spend hours helping us develop/tweak our estate plans, available for consultation as much as needed. There are also other experts on specific estate subjects/foundation creation/etc that we can consult with as needed. Then we take those ideas to our actual lawyer to draw them up. So basically, rather than paying $400+/hr to discuss complex estate planning (which at that level involves tax planning as well/ tax avoidance for when you die), we do that with him and others from the wealth management team to craft the plan, then just pay the lawyer for 4-5 hours of work. In the last 3 years, we have gotten 50+ hours of consultation for free and only had to pay the lawyer for less than 10 Hours. Given that the main person is actually a lawyer (but not working as a lawyer currently, so not allowed to officially give "legal advice") we are getting top notch consultation for free. It's part of our FA/Wealth management team that becomes available to you when you reach a certain level of wealth. Lots of perks become available at a certain wealth level. They want your business and quite frankly it's much easier to manage it all where everyone works for same company and has access to all your details.

So yes, if you have a net worth of only $2M your estate and wills are very simple. And a simple lawyer familiar with wills will be fine and you can use a good FA. But once you hit $10-15M you typically need more resources available for you.

I hate to break this to you, but you aren't getting any of these services for free.

But we don't get a break on the investment fee percentage if we don't use the services. So yes, in reality they are "free perks". If I'm paying X% of amount invested for my FA, that amount doesn't change if we don't use the extra services. So it would be foolish not to use those services.

You can think of it that way, but it is the wrong way. Critical thinking skills are not required for many jobs in the DC area.


They are overcharging you, so they can throw in other things for "free". If they charge you $30,000 a year, they don't mind giving you $5,000 of free stuff. You can get what they are offering for a lot less with the same quality. You need to determine how much time you want to look for an extra $10,000 -$15,000 a year. Truth!

If you are worth $20M+, $20K/year for a financial advisor is really just a blip on the financial radar. We pay more than that in property taxes for Each of our properties in a year. Fairly certain most people worth that much are not doing the investing themselves. Sure they could, but it's a service most are willing to pay for. Did my own until we were worth $3-4M. So totally capable of it.

If you are paying $20,000 on a $20 million portfolio, you are down to a 0.1% AUM fee.

I am more on the anti-FA side because of AUM fees digging into your returns, but at 0.1% PP is correct. That's just a blip on the radar.

My example of a $30K fee is not based on a net worth, just using random numbers.

+1

Our FA does NOT charge for the money put into Cash/MM/CD/Treasuries or the 529s. They manage that for "free". But there are plenty FA who would charge something for those as well.

All else being equal, it's what they charge that is important.

Would you rather have a FA that does NOT charge for the money put into Cash/MM/CD/Treasuries or the 529s and charges you $10,000 or

A FA who would charge something for those as well and charges $5,000?

We have over 50% of NW in CD/Treasuries/MM. So approaching $20M+. Not charging for that is significant. So in our situation, I'd rather not pay. And yes, it's our choice to not have those in the market---don't need to at this point. We have plenty in the market
Our FA actually has to do some work with all of that, keeping the CDs below the 500K FDIC limit for a couple. I'd rather they do that than me having 25+ bank accounts to fully manage myself. When you are UHNW (or even HNW) the work your FA does for you is significantly more than when you are investing only $2M across retirement, regular and 529s. At that point, my "cash" was easily managed by me---only need 1 good bank to have Full FDIC insurance. But it becomes a pain when you need 5+

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Anonymous wrote:Our FA is also our CPA. We are paying him .5% annually to manage just under $3M. We have a other assets in other funds (401K, Deferred Comp, Company Stock, Stock Options, 529, donor advised fund, etc.) which he doesn't manage, but still gives advice on allocations and other issues that would have tax implications. Our total investments, including the assets he manages, are about $12M.

He also helped us update our estate plan and made sure we are insured appropriately.

We like the convenience of having a CPA who understands our tax situation manage our funds and advise us on our other funds. My husband is also approaching retirement, so it has been reassuring having someone who can help us plan, which will be in about a year.

+1

Our FA is not our CPA, but they work closely with our CPA and our Estate Planner and everyone involved in our Wealth management team. They are the "glue that holds it all together". Sure I could pay less and manage it myself. But it's nice to just call/email/text and have them manage it for me. That is what you get for your 0.5% for everything they manage (for us it's $~10M). They also advise on our 529, 401K and everything financial even if they are not collecting a fee on that portion. They handle all of our treasury/CD/short term investments with out any fees (that is much more than $10M). Making sure it's all in best options for highest return when they come due. Also follows up when some has been in CDs at banks that have gone under (there have been a few in last 2 years----that happens when you spread it all out to keep FDIC insurance). That means I don't have to have accounts at 20+ banks to manage myself. That part all comes at "no fee" to us. Sure paying $25K+ per year may seem like a lot for most people, but when you are at HNW/UHNW it's just a part of managing your finances. And a great FA makes it all run smoothly. I know, because I used to manage our CD/Treasuries/MM previously and am very happy I don't have to do it anymore.

Thanks for sharing this. You mentioned you were paying approximately $25K in fees for $10M, so is your rate .25%? And do you feel for $3M in assets that .5% is a good rate?

I think that is a good rate for $3M. Especially if they do not charge a fee for your "cash" holdings (Treasuries/CD/MM/etc) or your 529s. And are very responsive to your needs.

We have been with our FA for 20+ years. So since we were only worth $1-2M. We chose to stay with them because we trust them. Even when we made the quick switch to UHNW 3 years ago we stayed---because they showed us they could (and would ) manage everything for us, they had access to wealth management team that is amazing. At that level, most of the FA who want your business are slimy and pushy and I didn't want to work with any of them. We interviewed a few just to see and I couldn't' stomach it. They are just annoying and sleezy to me.

I like that we are most likely our FA top client, not just another UHNW/HNW family.

What in tarnation does a wealth management team do?

Help coordinate your CPA, estate planning, creating a foundation, etc. Not something most people need, but when you hit the UHNW ($30M+) there are many new issues that need to be addressed. We have an estate consultant (not our lawyer) who for no fee will spend hours helping us develop/tweak our estate plans, available for consultation as much as needed. There are also other experts on specific estate subjects/foundation creation/etc that we can consult with as needed. Then we take those ideas to our actual lawyer to draw them up. So basically, rather than paying $400+/hr to discuss complex estate planning (which at that level involves tax planning as well/ tax avoidance for when you die), we do that with him and others from the wealth management team to craft the plan, then just pay the lawyer for 4-5 hours of work. In the last 3 years, we have gotten 50+ hours of consultation for free and only had to pay the lawyer for less than 10 Hours. Given that the main person is actually a lawyer (but not working as a lawyer currently, so not allowed to officially give "legal advice") we are getting top notch consultation for free. It's part of our FA/Wealth management team that becomes available to you when you reach a certain level of wealth. Lots of perks become available at a certain wealth level. They want your business and quite frankly it's much easier to manage it all where everyone works for same company and has access to all your details.

So yes, if you have a net worth of only $2M your estate and wills are very simple. And a simple lawyer familiar with wills will be fine and you can use a good FA. But once you hit $10-15M you typically need more resources available for you.

I hate to break this to you, but you aren't getting any of these services for free.

But we don't get a break on the investment fee percentage if we don't use the services. So yes, in reality they are "free perks". If I'm paying X% of amount invested for my FA, that amount doesn't change if we don't use the extra services. So it would be foolish not to use those services.

You can think of it that way, but it is the wrong way. Critical thinking skills are not required for many jobs in the DC area.


They are overcharging you, so they can throw in other things for "free". If they charge you $30,000 a year, they don't mind giving you $5,000 of free stuff. You can get what they are offering for a lot less with the same quality. You need to determine how much time you want to look for an extra $10,000 -$15,000 a year. Truth!

If you are worth $20M+, $20K/year for a financial advisor is really just a blip on the financial radar. We pay more than that in property taxes for Each of our properties in a year. Fairly certain most people worth that much are not doing the investing themselves. Sure they could, but it's a service most are willing to pay for. Did my own until we were worth $3-4M. So totally capable of it.

If you are paying $20,000 on a $20 million portfolio, you are down to a 0.1% AUM fee.

I am more on the anti-FA side because of AUM fees digging into your returns, but at 0.1% PP is correct. That's just a blip on the radar.

My example of a $30K fee is not based on a net worth, just using random numbers.

+1

Our FA does NOT charge for the money put into Cash/MM/CD/Treasuries or the 529s. They manage that for "free". But there are plenty FA who would charge something for those as well.

All else being equal, it's what they charge that is important.

Would you rather have a FA that does NOT charge for the money put into Cash/MM/CD/Treasuries or the 529s and charges you $10,000 or

A FA who would charge something for those as well and charges $5,000?

We have over 50% of NW in CD/Treasuries/MM. So approaching $20M+. Not charging for that is significant. So in our situation, I'd rather not pay. And yes, it's our choice to not have those in the market---don't need to at this point. We have plenty in the market
Our FA actually has to do some work with all of that, keeping the CDs below the 500K FDIC limit for a couple. I'd rather they do that than me having 25+ bank accounts to fully manage myself. When you are UHNW (or even HNW) the work your FA does for you is significantly more than when you are investing only $2M across retirement, regular and 529s. At that point, my "cash" was easily managed by me---only need 1 good bank to have Full FDIC insurance. But it becomes a pain when you need 5+

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Anonymous wrote:OP here. Ugh I feel sick hearing this. Just spoke with DH and advisor had recommended deploying the mutual funds slow and steady in case the market crashed. The mutual funds were supposed to just beat inflation and do better than a savings account while we slowly deploy. I guess it’s all relative to risk tolerance, and we’re not being aggressive enough. What if I just tell him to move it all to a cleared S&P 500 index fund? We have time to ride the waves and understand there’s no guarantee.

I agree this has nothing to do with risk tolerance and everything to do with you being fleeced by fees.

Now that I think you have bought on to this, we need to help you get out of this. You need to exit every single one of those funds. Keeping the individual FAANG stocks is a personal risk choice; at least they are not generating expense fees. But I would move them to Vanguard, Schwab, or Fidelity to take them out of your assets generating an AUM fee. While you are at it, move the cash to one of their money market funds.

Tell us the extent to which these funds are held in a taxable account, that is, not held in a retirement account like a Roth IRA. (I am assuming that you do not have an active IRA because you are doing backdoor Roths.) You can sell all the funds in a retirement account immediately with no tax implications and move the funds over to a Roth account to wherever you are moving your stock and money market funds.

But as a previous PP has said, selling all the other funds, could generate taxable income if they are not in a retirement account, and you will need advice on how to unwind them. I think this is particularly a concern for you because I am quite sure Vanguard would not accept a portfolio of these funds; you' have to check if Schwab or Fidelity would. This might mean you would need to liquidate them with your current financial advisor and continue to pay those fees until they are liquidated.

You need to hire a good tax CPA or one-time advise only financial advisor to figure out the liquidation exit plan in a way that balances out taxes dues from sales and fees from continuing to hold.

Once these funds are liquidated you can figure out a new deployment plan for the cash. Don't try to ride the wave; you already have a hefty share of FAANG for that should you keep that. You should be planning for optimizing your returns for the long-run, not for whatever further gains you may think are possible this year--absolutely no one is able to predict that.

Excellent advice. Saved me the time to type up what I would have said, with more info. OP, this is your guide right here.

Op here. Thank you so much! I think I’m going to go with Schwab because it’s an approved brokerage listed by my husband’s company. I have no idea how to find a good fee-only based advisor (any specific recommendations?)so I’ll probably just go with someone through Schwab to help me liquidate all the other funds with the current FA, assuming they can’t be transferred over. Then as I get more comfortable, I’ll ditch the Schwab help and mange myself. And when I said “ride the wave,” I meant getting the most ROI while continuing to grow our portfolio. I’ll keep the individual stocks (for now) and move them over to Schwab as well. [At the moment, the individual stocks are like our fun gambling pot which we don’t touch]. As far as tax implications, if the Schwab level of support can’t help me, I can ask our CPA who does our taxes.

And once my Schwab accounts are set up, we’ll start adding funds to those accounts instead of sending to our current FA. I’m assuming my FA will be notified by Schwab that we’re moving our money? Is this a conversation I should have with him before they do (assuming they’ll help me through this)?

If you have youngish children, and you work, do you really think you will have the bandwidth to watch your portfolio?

I tried doing that myself, and it was too hard. I didn't have time to research everything, and pay attention to the stock market.

Been DIYing it since I was 19.

Yes, with a small child. Working, obviously.

NOT paying attention is the key. Set and forget.

OP, Atwood Financial are great. Elizabeth Pennington charges $260/hr and the core things you need are done in three hours.

Enough with the Atwood shilling. What needs to be done takes more than three hours. Picking a few funds takes 3 seconds. They are over charging for the 2 hours 59 minutes and 57 seconds. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.

A. OP asked for recs.

B. I think you may be unfamiliar with how Atwood does business, a key feature of which is that they do not receive or store any client PII. So it’s true, three hours may sound like longer than it “should” take, but a lot of that is communicating about what is where now.

At the end, they have none of my data to lose, sell, or otherwise compromise, which I consider a major advantage.

In my case, I am planning for early retirement. Estate planning and insurance (perhaps these are what you mean when you say “what needs to be done takes more than three hours”?) have been done for a long time.

The first hour was on existing and future asset streams (retirement savings, house and mortgage, pension, SS as taken at various ages, health insurance, college).

Second hour was on modeling various scenarios (retirement dates, needed amounts to be spent on health care, etc). I have a fully disabled spouse (who also needs health insurance but will not qualify for Medicare when I do—see above) so budgeting for modifications to our home was part of this conversation.

Third hour was on asset allocation—IDK about Atwood generally, but Elizabeth Pennington specifically doesn’t recommend a “three-fund portfolio” in the traditional sense. Any money you will need close in goes to cash or equivalents (in my case, the G fund for the amount of money I will need in early-early retirement). Anything farther than 7-10 years out is in the market (two funds).

That third session could have been a half-hour, but in my case it included discussing pros and cons of rolling a large private employer 401k into TSP only, vs a combination of an IRA and the TSP.

My view is that what I got was well worth my $780. Note that this is dramatically less than OP is spending on fees in…a month. OP needs this and a basic Bogle book on index funds and that’s about it.

Have a nice day.

This is clearly advertising. No client would ever write like this.

When asked about what the "client" learned, they provided no information.

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Anonymous wrote:Our FA is also our CPA. We are paying him .5% annually to manage just under $3M. We have a other assets in other funds (401K, Deferred Comp, Company Stock, Stock Options, 529, donor advised fund, etc.) which he doesn't manage, but still gives advice on allocations and other issues that would have tax implications. Our total investments, including the assets he manages, are about $12M.

He also helped us update our estate plan and made sure we are insured appropriately.

We like the convenience of having a CPA who understands our tax situation manage our funds and advise us on our other funds. My husband is also approaching retirement, so it has been reassuring having someone who can help us plan, which will be in about a year.

+1

Our FA is not our CPA, but they work closely with our CPA and our Estate Planner and everyone involved in our Wealth management team. They are the "glue that holds it all together". Sure I could pay less and manage it myself. But it's nice to just call/email/text and have them manage it for me. That is what you get for your 0.5% for everything they manage (for us it's $~10M). They also advise on our 529, 401K and everything financial even if they are not collecting a fee on that portion. They handle all of our treasury/CD/short term investments with out any fees (that is much more than $10M). Making sure it's all in best options for highest return when they come due. Also follows up when some has been in CDs at banks that have gone under (there have been a few in last 2 years----that happens when you spread it all out to keep FDIC insurance). That means I don't have to have accounts at 20+ banks to manage myself. That part all comes at "no fee" to us. Sure paying $25K+ per year may seem like a lot for most people, but when you are at HNW/UHNW it's just a part of managing your finances. And a great FA makes it all run smoothly. I know, because I used to manage our CD/Treasuries/MM previously and am very happy I don't have to do it anymore.

Thanks for sharing this. You mentioned you were paying approximately $25K in fees for $10M, so is your rate .25%? And do you feel for $3M in assets that .5% is a good rate?

I think that is a good rate for $3M. Especially if they do not charge a fee for your "cash" holdings (Treasuries/CD/MM/etc) or your 529s. And are very responsive to your needs.

We have been with our FA for 20+ years. So since we were only worth $1-2M. We chose to stay with them because we trust them. Even when we made the quick switch to UHNW 3 years ago we stayed---because they showed us they could (and would ) manage everything for us, they had access to wealth management team that is amazing. At that level, most of the FA who want your business are slimy and pushy and I didn't want to work with any of them. We interviewed a few just to see and I couldn't' stomach it. They are just annoying and sleezy to me.

I like that we are most likely our FA top client, not just another UHNW/HNW family.

What in tarnation does a wealth management team do?

Help coordinate your CPA, estate planning, creating a foundation, etc. Not something most people need, but when you hit the UHNW ($30M+) there are many new issues that need to be addressed. We have an estate consultant (not our lawyer) who for no fee will spend hours helping us develop/tweak our estate plans, available for consultation as much as needed. There are also other experts on specific estate subjects/foundation creation/etc that we can consult with as needed. Then we take those ideas to our actual lawyer to draw them up. So basically, rather than paying $400+/hr to discuss complex estate planning (which at that level involves tax planning as well/ tax avoidance for when you die), we do that with him and others from the wealth management team to craft the plan, then just pay the lawyer for 4-5 hours of work. In the last 3 years, we have gotten 50+ hours of consultation for free and only had to pay the lawyer for less than 10 Hours. Given that the main person is actually a lawyer (but not working as a lawyer currently, so not allowed to officially give "legal advice") we are getting top notch consultation for free. It's part of our FA/Wealth management team that becomes available to you when you reach a certain level of wealth. Lots of perks become available at a certain wealth level. They want your business and quite frankly it's much easier to manage it all where everyone works for same company and has access to all your details.

So yes, if you have a net worth of only $2M your estate and wills are very simple. And a simple lawyer familiar with wills will be fine and you can use a good FA. But once you hit $10-15M you typically need more resources available for you.

I hate to break this to you, but you aren't getting any of these services for free.

But we don't get a break on the investment fee percentage if we don't use the services. So yes, in reality they are "free perks". If I'm paying X% of amount invested for my FA, that amount doesn't change if we don't use the extra services. So it would be foolish not to use those services.

You can think of it that way, but it is the wrong way. Critical thinking skills are not required for many jobs in the DC area.


They are overcharging you, so they can throw in other things for "free". If they charge you $30,000 a year, they don't mind giving you $5,000 of free stuff. You can get what they are offering for a lot less with the same quality. You need to determine how much time you want to look for an extra $10,000 -$15,000 a year. Truth!

If you are worth $20M+, $20K/year for a financial advisor is really just a blip on the financial radar. We pay more than that in property taxes for Each of our properties in a year. Fairly certain most people worth that much are not doing the investing themselves. Sure they could, but it's a service most are willing to pay for. Did my own until we were worth $3-4M. So totally capable of it.

If you are paying $20,000 on a $20 million portfolio, you are down to a 0.1% AUM fee.

I am more on the anti-FA side because of AUM fees digging into your returns, but at 0.1% PP is correct. That's just a blip on the radar.

My example of a $30K fee is not based on a net worth, just using random numbers.

+1

Our FA does NOT charge for the money put into Cash/MM/CD/Treasuries or the 529s. They manage that for "free". But there are plenty FA who would charge something for those as well.

All else being equal, it's what they charge that is important.

Would you rather have a FA that does NOT charge for the money put into Cash/MM/CD/Treasuries or the 529s and charges you $10,000 or

A FA who would charge something for those as well and charges $5,000?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Ugh I feel sick hearing this. Just spoke with DH and advisor had recommended deploying the mutual funds slow and steady in case the market crashed. The mutual funds were supposed to just beat inflation and do better than a savings account while we slowly deploy. I guess it’s all relative to risk tolerance, and we’re not being aggressive enough. What if I just tell him to move it all to a cleared S&P 500 index fund? We have time to ride the waves and understand there’s no guarantee.

I agree this has nothing to do with risk tolerance and everything to do with you being fleeced by fees.

Now that I think you have bought on to this, we need to help you get out of this. You need to exit every single one of those funds. Keeping the individual FAANG stocks is a personal risk choice; at least they are not generating expense fees. But I would move them to Vanguard, Schwab, or Fidelity to take them out of your assets generating an AUM fee. While you are at it, move the cash to one of their money market funds.

Tell us the extent to which these funds are held in a taxable account, that is, not held in a retirement account like a Roth IRA. (I am assuming that you do not have an active IRA because you are doing backdoor Roths.) You can sell all the funds in a retirement account immediately with no tax implications and move the funds over to a Roth account to wherever you are moving your stock and money market funds.

But as a previous PP has said, selling all the other funds, could generate taxable income if they are not in a retirement account, and you will need advice on how to unwind them. I think this is particularly a concern for you because I am quite sure Vanguard would not accept a portfolio of these funds; you' have to check if Schwab or Fidelity would. This might mean you would need to liquidate them with your current financial advisor and continue to pay those fees until they are liquidated.

You need to hire a good tax CPA or one-time advise only financial advisor to figure out the liquidation exit plan in a way that balances out taxes dues from sales and fees from continuing to hold.

Once these funds are liquidated you can figure out a new deployment plan for the cash. Don't try to ride the wave; you already have a hefty share of FAANG for that should you keep that. You should be planning for optimizing your returns for the long-run, not for whatever further gains you may think are possible this year--absolutely no one is able to predict that.

Excellent advice. Saved me the time to type up what I would have said, with more info. OP, this is your guide right here.

Op here. Thank you so much! I think I’m going to go with Schwab because it’s an approved brokerage listed by my husband’s company. I have no idea how to find a good fee-only based advisor (any specific recommendations?)so I’ll probably just go with someone through Schwab to help me liquidate all the other funds with the current FA, assuming they can’t be transferred over. Then as I get more comfortable, I’ll ditch the Schwab help and mange myself. And when I said “ride the wave,” I meant getting the most ROI while continuing to grow our portfolio. I’ll keep the individual stocks (for now) and move them over to Schwab as well. [At the moment, the individual stocks are like our fun gambling pot which we don’t touch]. As far as tax implications, if the Schwab level of support can’t help me, I can ask our CPA who does our taxes.

And once my Schwab accounts are set up, we’ll start adding funds to those accounts instead of sending to our current FA. I’m assuming my FA will be notified by Schwab that we’re moving our money? Is this a conversation I should have with him before they do (assuming they’ll help me through this)?

If you have youngish children, and you work, do you really think you will have the bandwidth to watch your portfolio?

I tried doing that myself, and it was too hard. I didn't have time to research everything, and pay attention to the stock market.

Been DIYing it since I was 19.

Yes, with a small child. Working, obviously.

NOT paying attention is the key. Set and forget.

OP, Atwood Financial are great. Elizabeth Pennington charges $260/hr and the core things you need are done in three hours.

Enough with the Atwood shilling. What needs to be done takes more than three hours. Picking a few funds takes 3 seconds. They are over charging for the 2 hours 59 minutes and 57 seconds. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.

A. OP asked for recs.

B. I think you may be unfamiliar with how Atwood does business, a key feature of which is that they do not receive or store any client PII. So it’s true, three hours may sound like longer than it “should” take, but a lot of that is communicating about what is where now.

At the end, they have none of my data to lose, sell, or otherwise compromise, which I consider a major advantage.

In my case, I am planning for early retirement. Estate planning and insurance (perhaps these are what you mean when you say “what needs to be done takes more than three hours”?) have been done for a long time.

The first hour was on existing and future asset streams (retirement savings, house and mortgage, pension, SS as taken at various ages, health insurance, college).

Second hour was on modeling various scenarios (retirement dates, needed amounts to be spent on health care, etc). I have a fully disabled spouse (who also needs health insurance but will not qualify for Medicare when I do—see above) so budgeting for modifications to our home was part of this conversation.

Third hour was on asset allocation—IDK about Atwood generally, but Elizabeth Pennington specifically doesn’t recommend a “three-fund portfolio” in the traditional sense. Any money you will need close in goes to cash or equivalents (in my case, the G fund for the amount of money I will need in early-early retirement). Anything farther than 7-10 years out is in the market (two funds).

That third session could have been a half-hour, but in my case it included discussing pros and cons of rolling a large private employer 401k into TSP only, vs a combination of an IRA and the TSP.

My view is that what I got was well worth my $780. Note that this is dramatically less than OP is spending on fees in…a month. OP needs this and a basic Bogle book on index funds and that’s about it.

Have a nice day.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you all for the recommendations and help! Based on everything I’ve read, I’m trying to decide between one of the following:

1. Call Atwood (thank you to the PP for this recommendation! She sounds very promising) and pay by the hour before firing FA. Get her professional opinion on existing portfolio and take next steps she recommends.
2. Fire FA immediately and tell him I want to self manage (Wells Fargo). Work with CPA to streamline investing and figure out tax advantageous plan.
3. Open account with discount brokerage (Schwab, Fidelity, etc). and get them to move stuff over from WF on my behalf. Then fire FA.
4. Ask FA to reduce fee to .35% AUM to match discount brokerage FA fees. (Husband suggested this and thinks we should hear him out, I don’t, especially considering all the fees we’re paying to be “diversified”.).

To be clear, I don’t want to look for a new FA that charges any kind of AUM fees. I really like the idea of the hourly help (Atwood) recommendation. I’m just not sure WHEN in this process I should fire my FA.

Thoughts? Thank you, DCUM!

OP, I think this thread is a great help to those who might be looking at hiring an FA, so they understand what to look for, and what to look out for. Could you come back periodically and update based on how things are going, as you transition away from the FA who put you into too many unnecessarily high fee funds?

OP here. Yes, of course! So far, I’ve reached out to Atwood through their contact us online page but haven’t heard back. I’ll try calling them next week. If I don’t have luck with them (I don’t really want to chase them down) then I think I’m going to open an account with Schwab and see how they can help me get our money moved over. I’m going to take these steps prior to firing my FA. In the meantime, I’m going to download all of my account info, statements, everything I can find so I have it just in case I can’t access it at a later date. If funds have to be liquidated because they can’t be transferred, then I’ll ask my CPA for advice. I want to get as much as I can in order before I fire FA.

Unfortunately, I had sick kids this week, so between work and caring for them, I didn’t have time to really dig in. I should be able to next week.

If anyone can recommend a good and easy to follow book on investing on your own through a discount brokerage, I’d appreciate it. Looking for a book because I have a long car ride coming up for spring break with my husband and two small kids!

I’ll continue to post updates as I get further in the process. Y’all have been so helpful!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you all for the recommendations and help! Based on everything I’ve read, I’m trying to decide between one of the following:

1. Call Atwood (thank you to the PP for this recommendation! She sounds very promising) and pay by the hour before firing FA. Get her professional opinion on existing portfolio and take next steps she recommends.
2. Fire FA immediately and tell him I want to self manage (Wells Fargo). Work with CPA to streamline investing and figure out tax advantageous plan.
3. Open account with discount brokerage (Schwab, Fidelity, etc). and get them to move stuff over from WF on my behalf. Then fire FA.
4. Ask FA to reduce fee to .35% AUM to match discount brokerage FA fees. (Husband suggested this and thinks we should hear him out, I don’t, especially considering all the fees we’re paying to be “diversified”.).

To be clear, I don’t want to look for a new FA that charges any kind of AUM fees. I really like the idea of the hourly help (Atwood) recommendation. I’m just not sure WHEN in this process I should fire my FA.

Thoughts? Thank you, DCUM!

OP, I think this thread is a great help to those who might be looking at hiring an FA, so they understand what to look for, and what to look out for. Could you come back periodically and update based on how things are going, as you transition away from the FA who put you into too many unnecessarily high fee funds?

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you all for the recommendations and help! Based on everything I’ve read, I’m trying to decide between one of the following:

1. Call Atwood (thank you to the PP for this recommendation! She sounds very promising) and pay by the hour before firing FA. Get her professional opinion on existing portfolio and take next steps she recommends.
2. Fire FA immediately and tell him I want to self manage (Wells Fargo). Work with CPA to streamline investing and figure out tax advantageous plan.
3. Open account with discount brokerage (Schwab, Fidelity, etc). and get them to move stuff over from WF on my behalf. Then fire FA.
4. Ask FA to reduce fee to .35% AUM to match discount brokerage FA fees. (Husband suggested this and thinks we should hear him out, I don’t, especially considering all the fees we’re paying to be “diversified”.).

To be clear, I don’t want to look for a new FA that charges any kind of AUM fees. I really like the idea of the hourly help (Atwood) recommendation. I’m just not sure WHEN in this process I should fire my FA.

Thoughts? Thank you, DCUM!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our FA is also our CPA. We are paying him .5% annually to manage just under $3M. We have a other assets in other funds (401K, Deferred Comp, Company Stock, Stock Options, 529, donor advised fund, etc.) which he doesn't manage, but still gives advice on allocations and other issues that would have tax implications. Our total investments, including the assets he manages, are about $12M.

He also helped us update our estate plan and made sure we are insured appropriately.

We like the convenience of having a CPA who understands our tax situation manage our funds and advise us on our other funds. My husband is also approaching retirement, so it has been reassuring having someone who can help us plan, which will be in about a year.

+1

Our FA is not our CPA, but they work closely with our CPA and our Estate Planner and everyone involved in our Wealth management team. They are the "glue that holds it all together". Sure I could pay less and manage it myself. But it's nice to just call/email/text and have them manage it for me. That is what you get for your 0.5% for everything they manage (for us it's $~10M). They also advise on our 529, 401K and everything financial even if they are not collecting a fee on that portion. They handle all of our treasury/CD/short term investments with out any fees (that is much more than $10M). Making sure it's all in best options for highest return when they come due. Also follows up when some has been in CDs at banks that have gone under (there have been a few in last 2 years----that happens when you spread it all out to keep FDIC insurance). That means I don't have to have accounts at 20+ banks to manage myself. That part all comes at "no fee" to us. Sure paying $25K+ per year may seem like a lot for most people, but when you are at HNW/UHNW it's just a part of managing your finances. And a great FA makes it all run smoothly. I know, because I used to manage our CD/Treasuries/MM previously and am very happy I don't have to do it anymore.

Thanks for sharing this. You mentioned you were paying approximately $25K in fees for $10M, so is your rate .25%? And do you feel for $3M in assets that .5% is a good rate?

I think that is a good rate for $3M. Especially if they do not charge a fee for your "cash" holdings (Treasuries/CD/MM/etc) or your 529s. And are very responsive to your needs.

We have been with our FA for 20+ years. So since we were only worth $1-2M. We chose to stay with them because we trust them. Even when we made the quick switch to UHNW 3 years ago we stayed---because they showed us they could (and would ) manage everything for us, they had access to wealth management team that is amazing. At that level, most of the FA who want your business are slimy and pushy and I didn't want to work with any of them. We interviewed a few just to see and I couldn't' stomach it. They are just annoying and sleezy to me.

I like that we are most likely our FA top client, not just another UHNW/HNW family.

I thought I had seen everything in status chasing, and then I saw something new.

Completely not status chasing. But I know our FA and I know 4 other clients, as was originally referred there thru friends. None of them are anything more than "a family with an income of $200-300K yearly income, most without stock options/mega bonus type jobs". So interview a FA who deals mostly with people like that,

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our FA is also our CPA. We are paying him .5% annually to manage just under $3M. We have a other assets in other funds (401K, Deferred Comp, Company Stock, Stock Options, 529, donor advised fund, etc.) which he doesn't manage, but still gives advice on allocations and other issues that would have tax implications. Our total investments, including the assets he manages, are about $12M.

He also helped us update our estate plan and made sure we are insured appropriately.

We like the convenience of having a CPA who understands our tax situation manage our funds and advise us on our other funds. My husband is also approaching retirement, so it has been reassuring having someone who can help us plan, which will be in about a year.

+1

Our FA is not our CPA, but they work closely with our CPA and our Estate Planner and everyone involved in our Wealth management team. They are the "glue that holds it all together". Sure I could pay less and manage it myself. But it's nice to just call/email/text and have them manage it for me. That is what you get for your 0.5% for everything they manage (for us it's $~10M). They also advise on our 529, 401K and everything financial even if they are not collecting a fee on that portion. They handle all of our treasury/CD/short term investments with out any fees (that is much more than $10M). Making sure it's all in best options for highest return when they come due. Also follows up when some has been in CDs at banks that have gone under (there have been a few in last 2 years----that happens when you spread it all out to keep FDIC insurance). That means I don't have to have accounts at 20+ banks to manage myself. That part all comes at "no fee" to us. Sure paying $25K+ per year may seem like a lot for most people, but when you are at HNW/UHNW it's just a part of managing your finances. And a great FA makes it all run smoothly. I know, because I used to manage our CD/Treasuries/MM previously and am very happy I don't have to do it anymore.

Thanks for sharing this. You mentioned you were paying approximately $25K in fees for $10M, so is your rate .25%? And do you feel for $3M in assets that .5% is a good rate?

I think that is a good rate for $3M. Especially if they do not charge a fee for your "cash" holdings (Treasuries/CD/MM/etc) or your 529s. And are very responsive to your needs.

We have been with our FA for 20+ years. So since we were only worth $1-2M. We chose to stay with them because we trust them. Even when we made the quick switch to UHNW 3 years ago we stayed---because they showed us they could (and would ) manage everything for us, they had access to wealth management team that is amazing. At that level, most of the FA who want your business are slimy and pushy and I didn't want to work with any of them. We interviewed a few just to see and I couldn't' stomach it. They are just annoying and sleezy to me.

I like that we are most likely our FA top client, not just another UHNW/HNW family.

What in tarnation does a wealth management team do?

Help coordinate your CPA, estate planning, creating a foundation, etc. Not something most people need, but when you hit the UHNW ($30M+) there are many new issues that need to be addressed. We have an estate consultant (not our lawyer) who for no fee will spend hours helping us develop/tweak our estate plans, available for consultation as much as needed. There are also other experts on specific estate subjects/foundation creation/etc that we can consult with as needed. Then we take those ideas to our actual lawyer to draw them up. So basically, rather than paying $400+/hr to discuss complex estate planning (which at that level involves tax planning as well/ tax avoidance for when you die), we do that with him and others from the wealth management team to craft the plan, then just pay the lawyer for 4-5 hours of work. In the last 3 years, we have gotten 50+ hours of consultation for free and only had to pay the lawyer for less than 10 Hours. Given that the main person is actually a lawyer (but not working as a lawyer currently, so not allowed to officially give "legal advice") we are getting top notch consultation for free. It's part of our FA/Wealth management team that becomes available to you when you reach a certain level of wealth. Lots of perks become available at a certain wealth level. They want your business and quite frankly it's much easier to manage it all where everyone works for same company and has access to all your details.

So yes, if you have a net worth of only $2M your estate and wills are very simple. And a simple lawyer familiar with wills will be fine and you can use a good FA. But once you hit $10-15M you typically need more resources available for you.

I hate to break this to you, but you aren't getting any of these services for free.

But we don't get a break on the investment fee percentage if we don't use the services. So yes, in reality they are "free perks". If I'm paying X% of amount invested for my FA, that amount doesn't change if we don't use the extra services. So it would be foolish not to use those services.

You can think of it that way, but it is the wrong way. Critical thinking skills are not required for many jobs in the DC area.


They are overcharging you, so they can throw in other things for "free". If they charge you $30,000 a year, they don't mind giving you $5,000 of free stuff. You can get what they are offering for a lot less with the same quality. You need to determine how much time you want to look for an extra $10,000 -$15,000 a year. Truth!

If you are worth $20M+, $20K/year for a financial advisor is really just a blip on the financial radar. We pay more than that in property taxes for Each of our properties in a year. Fairly certain most people worth that much are not doing the investing themselves. Sure they could, but it's a service most are willing to pay for. Did my own until we were worth $3-4M. So totally capable of it.

If you are paying $20,000 on a $20 million portfolio, you are down to a 0.1% AUM fee.

I am more on the anti-FA side because of AUM fees digging into your returns, but at 0.1% PP is correct. That's just a blip on the radar.

My example of a $30K fee is not based on a net worth, just using random numbers.

+1

Our FA does NOT charge for the money put into Cash/MM/CD/Treasuries or the 529s. They manage that for "free". But there are plenty FA who would charge something for those as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our FA is also our CPA. We are paying him .5% annually to manage just under $3M. We have a other assets in other funds (401K, Deferred Comp, Company Stock, Stock Options, 529, donor advised fund, etc.) which he doesn't manage, but still gives advice on allocations and other issues that would have tax implications. Our total investments, including the assets he manages, are about $12M.

He also helped us update our estate plan and made sure we are insured appropriately.

We like the convenience of having a CPA who understands our tax situation manage our funds and advise us on our other funds. My husband is also approaching retirement, so it has been reassuring having someone who can help us plan, which will be in about a year.

+1

Our FA is not our CPA, but they work closely with our CPA and our Estate Planner and everyone involved in our Wealth management team. They are the "glue that holds it all together". Sure I could pay less and manage it myself. But it's nice to just call/email/text and have them manage it for me. That is what you get for your 0.5% for everything they manage (for us it's $~10M). They also advise on our 529, 401K and everything financial even if they are not collecting a fee on that portion. They handle all of our treasury/CD/short term investments with out any fees (that is much more than $10M). Making sure it's all in best options for highest return when they come due. Also follows up when some has been in CDs at banks that have gone under (there have been a few in last 2 years----that happens when you spread it all out to keep FDIC insurance). That means I don't have to have accounts at 20+ banks to manage myself. That part all comes at "no fee" to us. Sure paying $25K+ per year may seem like a lot for most people, but when you are at HNW/UHNW it's just a part of managing your finances. And a great FA makes it all run smoothly. I know, because I used to manage our CD/Treasuries/MM previously and am very happy I don't have to do it anymore.

Thanks for sharing this. You mentioned you were paying approximately $25K in fees for $10M, so is your rate .25%? And do you feel for $3M in assets that .5% is a good rate?

I think that is a good rate for $3M. Especially if they do not charge a fee for your "cash" holdings (Treasuries/CD/MM/etc) or your 529s. And are very responsive to your needs.

We have been with our FA for 20+ years. So since we were only worth $1-2M. We chose to stay with them because we trust them. Even when we made the quick switch to UHNW 3 years ago we stayed---because they showed us they could (and would ) manage everything for us, they had access to wealth management team that is amazing. At that level, most of the FA who want your business are slimy and pushy and I didn't want to work with any of them. We interviewed a few just to see and I couldn't' stomach it. They are just annoying and sleezy to me.

I like that we are most likely our FA top client, not just another UHNW/HNW family.

What in tarnation does a wealth management team do?

Help coordinate your CPA, estate planning, creating a foundation, etc. Not something most people need, but when you hit the UHNW ($30M+) there are many new issues that need to be addressed. We have an estate consultant (not our lawyer) who for no fee will spend hours helping us develop/tweak our estate plans, available for consultation as much as needed. There are also other experts on specific estate subjects/foundation creation/etc that we can consult with as needed. Then we take those ideas to our actual lawyer to draw them up. So basically, rather than paying $400+/hr to discuss complex estate planning (which at that level involves tax planning as well/ tax avoidance for when you die), we do that with him and others from the wealth management team to craft the plan, then just pay the lawyer for 4-5 hours of work. In the last 3 years, we have gotten 50+ hours of consultation for free and only had to pay the lawyer for less than 10 Hours. Given that the main person is actually a lawyer (but not working as a lawyer currently, so not allowed to officially give "legal advice") we are getting top notch consultation for free. It's part of our FA/Wealth management team that becomes available to you when you reach a certain level of wealth. Lots of perks become available at a certain wealth level. They want your business and quite frankly it's much easier to manage it all where everyone works for same company and has access to all your details.

So yes, if you have a net worth of only $2M your estate and wills are very simple. And a simple lawyer familiar with wills will be fine and you can use a good FA. But once you hit $10-15M you typically need more resources available for you.

I hate to break this to you, but you aren't getting any of these services for free.

But we don't get a break on the investment fee percentage if we don't use the services. So yes, in reality they are "free perks". If I'm paying X% of amount invested for my FA, that amount doesn't change if we don't use the extra services. So it would be foolish not to use those services.

You can think of it that way, but it is the wrong way. Critical thinking skills are not required for many jobs in the DC area.


They are overcharging you, so they can throw in other things for "free". If they charge you $30,000 a year, they don't mind giving you $5,000 of free stuff. You can get what they are offering for a lot less with the same quality. You need to determine how much time you want to look for an extra $10,000 -$15,000 a year. Truth!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our FA is also our CPA. We are paying him .5% annually to manage just under $3M. We have a other assets in other funds (401K, Deferred Comp, Company Stock, Stock Options, 529, donor advised fund, etc.) which he doesn't manage, but still gives advice on allocations and other issues that would have tax implications. Our total investments, including the assets he manages, are about $12M.

He also helped us update our estate plan and made sure we are insured appropriately.

We like the convenience of having a CPA who understands our tax situation manage our funds and advise us on our other funds. My husband is also approaching retirement, so it has been reassuring having someone who can help us plan, which will be in about a year.

+1

Our FA is not our CPA, but they work closely with our CPA and our Estate Planner and everyone involved in our Wealth management team. They are the "glue that holds it all together". Sure I could pay less and manage it myself. But it's nice to just call/email/text and have them manage it for me. That is what you get for your 0.5% for everything they manage (for us it's $~10M). They also advise on our 529, 401K and everything financial even if they are not collecting a fee on that portion. They handle all of our treasury/CD/short term investments with out any fees (that is much more than $10M). Making sure it's all in best options for highest return when they come due. Also follows up when some has been in CDs at banks that have gone under (there have been a few in last 2 years----that happens when you spread it all out to keep FDIC insurance). That means I don't have to have accounts at 20+ banks to manage myself. That part all comes at "no fee" to us. Sure paying $25K+ per year may seem like a lot for most people, but when you are at HNW/UHNW it's just a part of managing your finances. And a great FA makes it all run smoothly. I know, because I used to manage our CD/Treasuries/MM previously and am very happy I don't have to do it anymore.

Thanks for sharing this. You mentioned you were paying approximately $25K in fees for $10M, so is your rate .25%? And do you feel for $3M in assets that .5% is a good rate?

I think that is a good rate for $3M. Especially if they do not charge a fee for your "cash" holdings (Treasuries/CD/MM/etc) or your 529s. And are very responsive to your needs.

We have been with our FA for 20+ years. So since we were only worth $1-2M. We chose to stay with them because we trust them. Even when we made the quick switch to UHNW 3 years ago we stayed---because they showed us they could (and would ) manage everything for us, they had access to wealth management team that is amazing. At that level, most of the FA who want your business are slimy and pushy and I didn't want to work with any of them. We interviewed a few just to see and I couldn't' stomach it. They are just annoying and sleezy to me.

I like that we are most likely our FA top client, not just another UHNW/HNW family.

What in tarnation does a wealth management team do?

Help coordinate your CPA, estate planning, creating a foundation, etc. Not something most people need, but when you hit the UHNW ($30M+) there are many new issues that need to be addressed. We have an estate consultant (not our lawyer) who for no fee will spend hours helping us develop/tweak our estate plans, available for consultation as much as needed. There are also other experts on specific estate subjects/foundation creation/etc that we can consult with as needed. Then we take those ideas to our actual lawyer to draw them up. So basically, rather than paying $400+/hr to discuss complex estate planning (which at that level involves tax planning as well/ tax avoidance for when you die), we do that with him and others from the wealth management team to craft the plan, then just pay the lawyer for 4-5 hours of work. In the last 3 years, we have gotten 50+ hours of consultation for free and only had to pay the lawyer for less than 10 Hours. Given that the main person is actually a lawyer (but not working as a lawyer currently, so not allowed to officially give "legal advice") we are getting top notch consultation for free. It's part of our FA/Wealth management team that becomes available to you when you reach a certain level of wealth. Lots of perks become available at a certain wealth level. They want your business and quite frankly it's much easier to manage it all where everyone works for same company and has access to all your details.

So yes, if you have a net worth of only $2M your estate and wills are very simple. And a simple lawyer familiar with wills will be fine and you can use a good FA. But once you hit $10-15M you typically need more resources available for you.

I hate to break this to you, but you aren't getting any of these services for free.

But we don't get a break on the investment fee percentage if we don't use the services. So yes, in reality they are "free perks". If I'm paying X% of amount invested for my FA, that amount doesn't change if we don't use the extra services. So it would be foolish not to use those services.

You can think of it that way, but it is the wrong way. Critical thinking skills are not required for many jobs in the DC area.


They are overcharging you, so they can throw in other things for "free". If they charge you $30,000 a year, they don't mind giving you $5,000 of free stuff. You can get what they are offering for a lot less with the same quality. You need to determine how much time you want to look for an extra $10,000 -$15,000 a year. Truth!

If you are worth $20M+, $20K/year for a financial advisor is really just a blip on the financial radar. We pay more than that in property taxes for Each of our properties in a year. Fairly certain most people worth that much are not doing the investing themselves. Sure they could, but it's a service most are willing to pay for. Did my own until we were worth $3-4M. So totally capable of it.

If you are paying $20,000 on a $20 million portfolio, you are down to a 0.1% AUM fee.

I am more on the anti-FA side because of AUM fees digging into your returns, but at 0.1% PP is correct. That's just a blip on the radar.

My example of a $30K fee is not based on a net worth, just using random numbers.