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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

No, but intensified sciences require participation in science fair. My son refused to do intensified sciences because her didn't want to do that.

And for the griping that you can't do marching band + a fall sport (not completely true), do you also complain that a student can't do two fall sports because there will be conflicts?

Stop attacking people criticizing the policy as groupers and complainers. The central point of the thread is that there isn’t a compelling reason to make marching band a mandatory requirement for participation in symphonic band. People are rightly noting the variety of disadvantages that come from that policy. The only arguments I’ve hear in favor of the policy seem to be “we couldn’t field a marching band if we didn’t make it mandatory” and “stop whining”.

The first argument reveals that purpose of the policy isn’t actually to benefit the students, but in fact to harness the desires of students to participate in symphonic band to achieve someone else’s goals.

The second argument shows that you don’t have any other arguments.

PP had better points than you.

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

No, but intensified sciences require participation in science fair. My son refused to do intensified sciences because her didn't want to do that.

And for the griping that you can't do marching band + a fall sport (not completely true), do you also complain that a student can't do two fall sports because there will be conflicts?

Stop attacking people criticizing the policy as groupers and complainers. The central point of the thread is that there isn’t a compelling reason to make marching band a mandatory requirement for participation in symphonic band. People are rightly noting the variety of disadvantages that come from that policy. The only arguments I’ve hear in favor of the policy seem to be “we couldn’t field a marching band if we didn’t make it mandatory” and “stop whining”.

The first argument reveals that purpose of the policy isn’t actually to benefit the students, but in fact to harness the desires of students to participate in symphonic band to achieve someone else’s goals.

The second argument shows that you don’t have any other arguments.

Anonymous wrote:At TJ it’s the opposite. You have to be in one of the curricular bands in order to do marching band. Their marching band is good and also. It stigmatized. They have to incentivize curricular band so kids don’t drop it for science and tech classes.

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

It isn't really extracurricular if you're getting academic credit for it. If you eliminate the academic credit but retain the requirement, then you can make those comparisons. But that's not what we have here in Arlington.

How many extra academic credits for advanced band (with mandated marching band) vs the beginner band?

Here’s a question they’ll never willingly answer. Because it’s going to turn out those hours and hours of rehearsals, despite being such a valuable learning experience that it's mandatory, doesn’t actually equate to any additional credit hours. It’s just a tacked on requirement for someone else’s benefit, not the students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about those who are in varsity football skip practice every so often so they can run track, too? Oh, sorry, both have mandatory practices because missing a practice could affect the team and the training

Stop bashing music. The arts already suffer and way more emphasis and preference is put on sports. Schools around the country are providing less and less funding for music, art, drama and chorus.

I think what they are doing is brilliant. You want to play in the music program? There is a 3 month commitment to play in marching band in addition to regular class. My large Fairfax HS did it back in the day. Playing in the top band in high school and playing in the marching band go hand in hand. Otherwise you don’t have a robust marching band without it.

The arts suffer as they are inflexible. Simple. When it comes down to it, marching band has a low priority for us. There is no teaching involved and some of the kids are well, obnoxious and think they are good when they aren't.

Sports are inflexible too. But nobody has a problem with that.

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

It isn't really extracurricular if you're getting academic credit for it. If you eliminate the academic credit but retain the requirement, then you can make those comparisons. But that's not what we have here in Arlington.

How many extra academic credits for advanced band (with mandated marching band) vs the beginner band?

ZERO. They are tacking on an extracurricular activity with a significant time commitment outside of school hours (that conflicts with many other fall activities) without giving any extra academic credits.

Marching band is an additional 1 credit that shows up on the transcript with a grade (parent of a 4-yr APS symphonic/marching student)

Correction... It's a half credit since it's just one semester. Graded class, on the transcript

Anonymous wrote:Is it possible to just take symphonic band for second semester?

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

It isn't really extracurricular if you're getting academic credit for it. If you eliminate the academic credit but retain the requirement, then you can make those comparisons. But that's not what we have here in Arlington.

How many extra academic credits for advanced band (with mandated marching band) vs the beginner band?

ZERO. They are tacking on an extracurricular activity with a significant time commitment outside of school hours (that conflicts with many other fall activities) without giving any extra academic credits.

Marching band is an additional 1 credit that shows up on the transcript with a grade (parent of a 4-yr APS symphonic/marching student)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about those who are in varsity football skip practice every so often so they can run track, too? Oh, sorry, both have mandatory practices because missing a practice could affect the team and the training

Stop bashing music. The arts already suffer and way more emphasis and preference is put on sports. Schools around the country are providing less and less funding for music, art, drama and chorus.

I think what they are doing is brilliant. You want to play in the music program? There is a 3 month commitment to play in marching band in addition to regular class. My large Fairfax HS did it back in the day. Playing in the top band in high school and playing in the marching band go hand in hand. Otherwise you don’t have a robust marching band without it.

The arts suffer as they are inflexible. Simple. When it comes down to it, marching band has a low priority for us. There is no teaching involved and some of the kids are well, obnoxious and think they are good when they aren't.

Sports are inflexible too. But nobody has a problem with that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about those who are in varsity football skip practice every so often so they can run track, too? Oh, sorry, both have mandatory practices because missing a practice could affect the team and the training

Stop bashing music. The arts already suffer and way more emphasis and preference is put on sports. Schools around the country are providing less and less funding for music, art, drama and chorus.

I think what they are doing is brilliant. You want to play in the music program? There is a 3 month commitment to play in marching band in addition to regular class. My large Fairfax HS did it back in the day. Playing in the top band in high school and playing in the marching band go hand in hand. Otherwise you don’t have a robust marching band without it.

The arts suffer as they are inflexible. Simple. When it comes down to it, marching band has a low priority for us. There is no teaching involved and some of the kids are well, obnoxious and think they are good when they aren't.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

It isn't really extracurricular if you're getting academic credit for it. If you eliminate the academic credit but retain the requirement, then you can make those comparisons. But that's not what we have here in Arlington.

How many extra academic credits for advanced band (with mandated marching band) vs the beginner band?

ZERO. They are tacking on an extracurricular activity with a significant time commitment outside of school hours (that conflicts with many other fall activities) without giving any extra academic credits.

Anonymous wrote:There is one persistent whiny parent on this thread, who thinks their entitled child should get whatever they want. And will go to great lengths to insult what they can’t have.

Anonymous wrote:How about those who are in varsity football skip practice every so often so they can run track, too? Oh, sorry, both have mandatory practices because missing a practice could affect the team and the training

Stop bashing music. The arts already suffer and way more emphasis and preference is put on sports. Schools around the country are providing less and less funding for music, art, drama and chorus.

I think what they are doing is brilliant. You want to play in the music program? There is a 3 month commitment to play in marching band in addition to regular class. My large Fairfax HS did it back in the day. Playing in the top band in high school and playing in the marching band go hand in hand. Otherwise you don’t have a robust marching band without it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about those who are in varsity football skip practice every so often so they can run track, too? Oh, sorry, both have mandatory practices because missing a practice could affect the team and the training

Stop bashing music. The arts already suffer and way more emphasis and preference is put on sports. Schools around the country are providing less and less funding for music, art, drama and chorus.

I think what they are doing is brilliant. You want to play in the music program? There is a 3 month commitment to play in marching band in addition to regular class. My large Fairfax HS did it back in the day. Playing in the top band in high school and playing in the marching band go hand in hand. Otherwise you don’t have a robust marching band without it.

The arts suffer as they are inflexible. Simple. When it comes down to it, marching band has a low priority for us. There is no teaching involved and some of the kids are well, obnoxious and think they are good when they aren't.