Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 22:05     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP - what sport is your daughter recruited for? I read all the posts and don't think you said.

And remember, these same people screeching at you about how entitled you are for feeling bad you can't afford your kid's dream school will then go over to the Money and Finances board and post about how anything less than $200K a year in DC is poverty wages.


This is the opening line in the OP:

"Long story short: we will not get any financial aid. We make too much for help but don't make enough to go full pay at a private in a way that leaves any wiggle room. "

The OP actually started out with an interesting query. Where things got weird was when OP started posting aggressively nasty responses to posters that pointed out, based on experience, that focusing on what you cannot have was the path to disappointment and there are many great options OP's daughter does have based on OP's description.

I am probably fairly similarly situated to OP. We have about half the cost of a private school education saved. I have been strategizing for literally years on how we will get our two daughters through the best college for them without debt. Our oldest is applying now, all applications are in and my guess is that college could end up costing anywhere from $40K-90K/year. If it ends up at the high end it will leave us very little "wiggle room" as OP said. We will have to make hard choices to make it work. it sounds like OP was depending on merit aid to "discount" what she knew the price of college was and was disappointed to learn that not all colleges discount for strong students. This devolved into a debate about the high cost of college.

The pushback towards OP is the on idea that she has somehow been wronged by the system. The reality is that a wonderful college education is available in the United States at reasonable prices to most students, our university system is the envy of the world. Some of the options are very high cost, but not all. OP's student is a recruited athlete so she already has an advantage not related to her academic accomplishments that will provide her with a hook - also arguably unfair. OP does not see that the "best fit" school is a luxury that is want and not a need. She does not see that she has more choices than most. She is tone deaf and seeking sympathy.


very accurate and fair summary of this thread
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 21:52     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:OP - what sport is your daughter recruited for? I read all the posts and don't think you said.

And remember, these same people screeching at you about how entitled you are for feeling bad you can't afford your kid's dream school will then go over to the Money and Finances board and post about how anything less than $200K a year in DC is poverty wages.


This is the opening line in the OP:

"Long story short: we will not get any financial aid. We make too much for help but don't make enough to go full pay at a private in a way that leaves any wiggle room. "

The OP actually started out with an interesting query. Where things got weird was when OP started posting aggressively nasty responses to posters that pointed out, based on experience, that focusing on what you cannot have was the path to disappointment and there are many great options OP's daughter does have based on OP's description.

I am probably fairly similarly situated to OP. We have about half the cost of a private school education saved. I have been strategizing for literally years on how we will get our two daughters through the best college for them without debt. Our oldest is applying now, all applications are in and my guess is that college could end up costing anywhere from $40K-90K/year. If it ends up at the high end it will leave us very little "wiggle room" as OP said. We will have to make hard choices to make it work. it sounds like OP was depending on merit aid to "discount" what she knew the price of college was and was disappointed to learn that not all colleges discount for strong students. This devolved into a debate about the high cost of college.

The pushback towards OP is the on idea that she has somehow been wronged by the system. The reality is that a wonderful college education is available in the United States at reasonable prices to most students, our university system is the envy of the world. Some of the options are very high cost, but not all. OP's student is a recruited athlete so she already has an advantage not related to her academic accomplishments that will provide her with a hook - also arguably unfair. OP does not see that the "best fit" school is a luxury that is want and not a need. She does not see that she has more choices than most. She is tone deaf and seeking sympathy.
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 19:59     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For those of you wondering why tuition has gone up so much--it's not just climbing walls and administrative creep (although that doesn't hurt. Here are some of the things schools must now provide that cost a lot of money:
1) Mental health services
2) ADA and accommodation services (extra test time et al)
3) FERPA/HIIPA administrators
4)DEI deans, programs, counselors, et al
5) Improved housing and dining

I'm not saying that these changes are bad--it's great that kids with mental health issues, disabilities, needing accommodations can now go to school, and DEI is important. But if you think about how it was when the boomers went to school -- some large lectures and bare bones housing, no counseling at all -- and what it is like today at schools, you see why it costs so much more.


“Rich kids are more expensive to educate because they’re more likely to be disabled and mentally ill” is not a take I expected to encounter on DCUM, but here we are.


Where did you get that?
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 19:58     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:For those of you wondering why tuition has gone up so much--it's not just climbing walls and administrative creep (although that doesn't hurt. Here are some of the things schools must now provide that cost a lot of money:
1) Mental health services
2) ADA and accommodation services (extra test time et al)
3) FERPA/HIIPA administrators
4)DEI deans, programs, counselors, et al
5) Improved housing and dining

I'm not saying that these changes are bad--it's great that kids with mental health issues, disabilities, needing accommodations can now go to school, and DEI is important. But if you think about how it was when the boomers went to school -- some large lectures and bare bones housing, no counseling at all -- and what it is like today at schools, you see why it costs so much more.


yes, important services to create a more inclusive community, but will cost money to implement
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 19:35     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
OP - what sport is your daughter recruited for? I read all the posts and don't think you said.

And remember, these same people screeching at you about how entitled you are for feeling bad you can't afford your kid's dream school will then go over to the Money and Finances board and post about how anything less than $200K a year in DC is poverty wages.
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 19:20     Subject: Re:schools w/ no merit aid
The price is high, and not discounted, at elite schools simply because enough people will pay that much. Places like Harvard have a big enough endowment that they don't need to charge tuition to anyone and yet they do. They've learned they can keep raising the price and still have an abundance of applicants so why would they stop raising the price.

Private schools further down the rankings publish a high list price because in the world of education a lot of people equate price with quality (because the top ranked schools are also expensive, even though there is no need for them to be). But then they discount on average by 50%.
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 19:04     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For those of you wondering why tuition has gone up so much--it's not just climbing walls and administrative creep (although that doesn't hurt. Here are some of the things schools must now provide that cost a lot of money:
1) Mental health services
2) ADA and accommodation services (extra test time et al)
3) FERPA/HIIPA administrators
4)DEI deans, programs, counselors, et al
5) Improved housing and dining

I'm not saying that these changes are bad--it's great that kids with mental health issues, disabilities, needing accommodations can now go to school, and DEI is important. But if you think about how it was when the boomers went to school -- some large lectures and bare bones housing, no counseling at all -- and what it is like today at schools, you see why it costs so much more.


“Rich kids are more expensive to educate because they’re more likely to be disabled and mentally ill” is not a take I expected to encounter on DCUM, but here we are.


Do you have weak critical thinking skills or are you commenting in bad faith?

I do think it’s true that children of the rich are less willing to tolerate not having their disabilities and mental health addressed, but no one is saying they are objectively more likely to suffer from these things.
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 19:02     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For those of you wondering why tuition has gone up so much--it's not just climbing walls and administrative creep (although that doesn't hurt. Here are some of the things schools must now provide that cost a lot of money:
1) Mental health services
2) ADA and accommodation services (extra test time et al)
3) FERPA/HIIPA administrators
4)DEI deans, programs, counselors, et al
5) Improved housing and dining

I'm not saying that these changes are bad--it's great that kids with mental health issues, disabilities, needing accommodations can now go to school, and DEI is important. But if you think about how it was when the boomers went to school -- some large lectures and bare bones housing, no counseling at all -- and what it is like today at schools, you see why it costs so much more.


“Rich kids are more expensive to educate because they’re more likely to be disabled and mentally ill” is not a take I expected to encounter on DCUM, but here we are.


NP: Not sure why you jumped to rich kids. This is happening at most higher ed institutions, no matter who they primarily serve, rich, poor, URM, etc. As the OP stated, administrative creep is one reason and it seems like the lack of transparency in the market, as well as student loans/financial aid, has contributed to the problem, but so has the items on OP's list: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-college-so-expensive-2018-4


The schools that enroll a lot of rich kids cost a lot more than the schools that enroll a lot of middle class kids. You said the reason the price was so high was that the kids need more disability and mental health services. The only way that can explain the high marginal cost of Ivies over the cost of going OOS to a school like Florida, UGA, OSU, UIUC, or Purdue, is if the rich kids are more likely to need those services.


The price is high at most private schools. Some use merit aid to “buy” UMC students with stats that are above average for the school. The top ranked schools such as the one OP wants for her child (the elite ones) don’t have to do this because all their students have top notch stats. 80K/year is not only the elite schools (which for the record support their lower SES students with financial aid to make it affordable).
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 18:57     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For those of you wondering why tuition has gone up so much--it's not just climbing walls and administrative creep (although that doesn't hurt. Here are some of the things schools must now provide that cost a lot of money:
1) Mental health services
2) ADA and accommodation services (extra test time et al)
3) FERPA/HIIPA administrators
4)DEI deans, programs, counselors, et al
5) Improved housing and dining

I'm not saying that these changes are bad--it's great that kids with mental health issues, disabilities, needing accommodations can now go to school, and DEI is important. But if you think about how it was when the boomers went to school -- some large lectures and bare bones housing, no counseling at all -- and what it is like today at schools, you see why it costs so much more.


“Rich kids are more expensive to educate because they’re more likely to be disabled and mentally ill” is not a take I expected to encounter on DCUM, but here we are.


NP: Not sure why you jumped to rich kids. This is happening at most higher ed institutions, no matter who they primarily serve, rich, poor, URM, etc. As the OP stated, administrative creep is one reason and it seems like the lack of transparency in the market, as well as student loans/financial aid, has contributed to the problem, but so has the items on OP's list: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-college-so-expensive-2018-4


The schools that enroll a lot of rich kids cost a lot more than the schools that enroll a lot of middle class kids. You said the reason the price was so high was that the kids need more disability and mental health services. The only way that can explain the high marginal cost of Ivies over the cost of going OOS to a school like Florida, UGA, OSU, UIUC, or Purdue, is if the rich kids are more likely to need those services.


The elite schools have always cost more. They cost more because they have better facilities (sometimes), more research supported, smaller class sizes, more advisors and services for the students, etc. It costs much more to offer Chemistry 101 with only 50-100 students or less vs 500+ per class. My one kid has chemistry lab where there are no partners so each kid attends a lab of only 10-12 students and does lab solely by themselves, that means more space, time, equipment,TAs to run labs, etc. Similarly for other classes that are even smaller at most elite universities. They often require housing for 2 years and some for 3-4---this all costs money (whereas your big state schools sometimes do not even guaranteed housing for freshman). So they must have maintain more dorms, dining halls, etc. The more elite schools often have better RA to student ratio in dorms (or even just mid tiered private/more expensive schools)....my kids all had 1:25/30 RA ratios, but at the big state schools we looked at it would be 1:60/80 RA:student ratio. All of these little things cost more and add up.
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 18:52     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For those of you wondering why tuition has gone up so much--it's not just climbing walls and administrative creep (although that doesn't hurt. Here are some of the things schools must now provide that cost a lot of money:
1) Mental health services
2) ADA and accommodation services (extra test time et al)
3) FERPA/HIIPA administrators
4)DEI deans, programs, counselors, et al
5) Improved housing and dining

I'm not saying that these changes are bad--it's great that kids with mental health issues, disabilities, needing accommodations can now go to school, and DEI is important. But if you think about how it was when the boomers went to school -- some large lectures and bare bones housing, no counseling at all -- and what it is like today at schools, you see why it costs so much more.


“Rich kids are more expensive to educate because they’re more likely to be disabled and mentally ill” is not a take I expected to encounter on DCUM, but here we are.


NP: Not sure why you jumped to rich kids. This is happening at most higher ed institutions, no matter who they primarily serve, rich, poor, URM, etc. As the OP stated, administrative creep is one reason and it seems like the lack of transparency in the market, as well as student loans/financial aid, has contributed to the problem, but so has the items on OP's list: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-college-so-expensive-2018-4


The schools that enroll a lot of rich kids cost a lot more than the schools that enroll a lot of middle class kids. You said the reason the price was so high was that the kids need more disability and mental health services. The only way that can explain the high marginal cost of Ivies over the cost of going OOS to a school like Florida, UGA, OSU, UIUC, or Purdue, is if the rich kids are more likely to need those services.


I didn't make that argument--I was arguing in support of the OP's original post. Mental health and disability services are required because of federal regulations. Private universities have the money to provide more robust/wrap-around services. Public universities do not have the same level of funding, especially in states like Florida. It has nothing to do with rich kids needing more services. The data shows that the number of students that need these types of services has increased on all types of campuses.
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 18:45     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For those of you wondering why tuition has gone up so much--it's not just climbing walls and administrative creep (although that doesn't hurt. Here are some of the things schools must now provide that cost a lot of money:
1) Mental health services
2) ADA and accommodation services (extra test time et al)
3) FERPA/HIIPA administrators
4)DEI deans, programs, counselors, et al
5) Improved housing and dining

I'm not saying that these changes are bad--it's great that kids with mental health issues, disabilities, needing accommodations can now go to school, and DEI is important. But if you think about how it was when the boomers went to school -- some large lectures and bare bones housing, no counseling at all -- and what it is like today at schools, you see why it costs so much more.


“Rich kids are more expensive to educate because they’re more likely to be disabled and mentally ill” is not a take I expected to encounter on DCUM, but here we are.


NP: Not sure why you jumped to rich kids. This is happening at most higher ed institutions, no matter who they primarily serve, rich, poor, URM, etc. As the OP stated, administrative creep is one reason and it seems like the lack of transparency in the market, as well as student loans/financial aid, has contributed to the problem, but so has the items on OP's list: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-college-so-expensive-2018-4


The schools that enroll a lot of rich kids cost a lot more than the schools that enroll a lot of middle class kids. You said the reason the price was so high was that the kids need more disability and mental health services. The only way that can explain the high marginal cost of Ivies over the cost of going OOS to a school like Florida, UGA, OSU, UIUC, or Purdue, is if the rich kids are more likely to need those services.
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 18:38     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For those of you wondering why tuition has gone up so much--it's not just climbing walls and administrative creep (although that doesn't hurt. Here are some of the things schools must now provide that cost a lot of money:
1) Mental health services
2) ADA and accommodation services (extra test time et al)
3) FERPA/HIIPA administrators
4)DEI deans, programs, counselors, et al
5) Improved housing and dining

I'm not saying that these changes are bad--it's great that kids with mental health issues, disabilities, needing accommodations can now go to school, and DEI is important. But if you think about how it was when the boomers went to school -- some large lectures and bare bones housing, no counseling at all -- and what it is like today at schools, you see why it costs so much more.


“Rich kids are more expensive to educate because they’re more likely to be disabled and mentally ill” is not a take I expected to encounter on DCUM, but here we are.


NP: Not sure why you jumped to rich kids. This is happening at most higher ed institutions, no matter who they primarily serve, rich, poor, URM, etc. As the OP stated, administrative creep is one reason and it seems like the lack of transparency in the market, as well as student loans/financial aid, has contributed to the problem, but so has the items on OP's list: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-college-so-expensive-2018-4
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 18:17     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wellesley actually offers generous financial aid even to wealthier households. Have you run the NPC for that school? They use the CSS and take more into account than FAFSA.



Sure, 45% of students come from the highest earning 10% of families, 59% from the highest earning 20%. They are 3rd among elite schools in the numbers of students from the bottom fifth of parental income. It's very much a barbell school.




https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/wellesley-college


Don’t know anything about OP, but I wouldn’t be surprised if her family was at least in the highest earning 20%. That includes millions of families. We all tend to look around and think we are just average earners, but DCUMers are well above that.
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 17:34     Subject: Re:schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m always amazed at people who blame “lack of planning” when people don’t have $300K saved for their kid’s education. Some people simply can’t put that much money into a 529 because, wait for it, they simply don’t make enough money to do so. No amount of scrimping, saving, driving beater cars, not taking vacations, will change that. It’s not a character flaw that they don’t have a $300K 529 and I wish people would stop making it sound like it is.


It is not a character flaw. But it would be a character flaw to expect to be able to attend a university that you cannot afford (as in $80K/year) because you were not able to save. There are many, many good universities that do offer merit, that can be affordable to your family. So if you were not able to save and don't qualify for any/enough FA, then an $80K/year school just might not be the "right fit" school for your kids. So like you have done (and most people have to do at some level) with lots of things in life, you pick schools that are affordable to you. There are plenty to pick from.

But the reason many mention the "saving" is because we routinely see people complain about not having enough money yet "waste" their money on non-essentials. I see people get a $5 latte daily (sometime two), eat lunch out daily, eat half their dinners out/go to bars, etc yet complain they can't save for something else. So while it won't solve "all the world's problems", those people are wasting $200-800 per month---that could be saved for something else. So if education was more important to them, they could choose to save. It's those people I'm referencing when I make statements like that.

When I was younger (and didn't have enough money), I took my lunch 9/10 days, always took coffee and snacks from home, cooked dinner at home most nights, didn't take fancy vacations (ie we took 3-4 day trips that were within a 5-6 hour drive from home and stayed at discount hotels). I grew up poor, so I get that many people simply cannot "just save instead of spending". My family dining out treat when going up was pizza on Sat night or a trip to Ponderosa (steak and all you can eat salad bar for $8/person). However, many, many people I know could save if they wanted to, yet choose to complain about not having everything in life.





Eye roll all you want. Many people do spend on "non-essentials" and then complain they don't have enough for other things. A brand new iPhone, Starbucks daily, meals out, etc are NOT essentials. You can choose what you spend on, but then don't complain you "can't afford" something else. Life is about choices.

Similarly, attending an elite college is not an "essential". If you can afford it, you can choose to do so. If not, you find what you can afford.
Anonymous
Post 01/11/2023 17:21     Subject: schools w/ no merit aid
Anonymous wrote:For those of you wondering why tuition has gone up so much--it's not just climbing walls and administrative creep (although that doesn't hurt. Here are some of the things schools must now provide that cost a lot of money:
1) Mental health services
2) ADA and accommodation services (extra test time et al)
3) FERPA/HIIPA administrators
4)DEI deans, programs, counselors, et al
5) Improved housing and dining

I'm not saying that these changes are bad--it's great that kids with mental health issues, disabilities, needing accommodations can now go to school, and DEI is important. But if you think about how it was when the boomers went to school -- some large lectures and bare bones housing, no counseling at all -- and what it is like today at schools, you see why it costs so much more.


“Rich kids are more expensive to educate because they’re more likely to be disabled and mentally ill” is not a take I expected to encounter on DCUM, but here we are.