Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks to some of the (minority of) constructive comments in this thread. I took the opportunity that this field trip brought and started a long conversation about how religion, in general, treat women and also how my kids think/feel about this. It is fantastic to see my kids grow into sensible and respecting human beings. The conversation is enriching both for me and for my kids, I hope! For that I thank the school and some of you people with your different perspectives.

Apparently, the school change the mosque they are planning on visiting and are no longer requiring girls to cover their head/hair. As far as I know the school decided this on their own (I didn't complain nor did any of the other parents I talked to about this issue). This speaks well of Deal, I think.

In any case, I had decided to let my kids decide what to do. They told me that they didn't mind covering their hair/head, that they find it strange but they wanted to go on the field trip. I told them that I respected their decision and that was happy for them.

For me, it was an interesting learning experience as well.

Finally, I want to say that many of you need to slow down before insulting/jumping to conclusions about fellow posters here. FWIW, I wrote only the comments announcing that I was OP and I don't think I was disrespectful. Maybe I was inaccurate, maybe my tone was wrong? I don't know. But many of you jump off at me with insults or misrepresenting the things I said. It's ok, it's an anonymous forum and it's always hard to have a nuanced conversation via writing only. If anything, this also confirm that religion is poison. This is not hate: I don't hate religious people; you are free to believe and do whatever you want as long as you don't bother your fellow citizens/neighbors. Be happy, be well. In peace,

OP.

I was doing well with your update until I got to “if anything, this also confirms that religion is poison.” You may not hate religious people, but perhaps you can spend some more time looking at the good religion brings. I’m glad your children will be on this trip. I suspect they’ll see some of that.

-a person who came to religion late in life because of the positive relationships I formed with faithful people

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks to some of the (minority of) constructive comments in this thread. I took the opportunity that this field trip brought and started a long conversation about how religion, in general, treat women and also how my kids think/feel about this. It is fantastic to see my kids grow into sensible and respecting human beings. The conversation is enriching both for me and for my kids, I hope! For that I thank the school and some of you people with your different perspectives.

Apparently, the school change the mosque they are planning on visiting and are no longer requiring girls to cover their head/hair. As far as I know the school decided this on their own (I didn't complain nor did any of the other parents I talked to about this issue). This speaks well of Deal, I think.

In any case, I had decided to let my kids decide what to do. They told me that they didn't mind covering their hair/head, that they find it strange but they wanted to go on the field trip. I told them that I respected their decision and that was happy for them.

For me, it was an interesting learning experience as well.

Finally, I want to say that many of you need to slow down before insulting/jumping to conclusions about fellow posters here. FWIW, I wrote only the comments announcing that I was OP and I don't think I was disrespectful. Maybe I was inaccurate, maybe my tone was wrong? I don't know. But many of you jump off at me with insults or misrepresenting the things I said. It's ok, it's an anonymous forum and it's always hard to have a nuanced conversation via writing only. If anything, this also confirm that religion is poison. This is not hate: I don't hate religious people; you are free to believe and do whatever you want as long as you don't bother your fellow citizens/neighbors. Be happy, be well. In peace,

OP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you this much, OP: all this does is teach your kid to hate. Not good.

OP here. Honest question. Why does it teach my kids to hate?

Your unwillingness even to tolerate a dress code so that your kid can learn about a mosque strictly as an academic subject sends a message of intolerance, inflexibility, and hate.

Her kid can learn about the academic subject in class. I hope you stretched before that massive reach you just made.

Not a massive reach. She’s basically saying she refuses to let her kid enter a mosque. It’s hate, pure and simple.

OP here. Nah, I don't hate muslims, catholics, jews, buddhists, mormons, scientologists, or any other person following any religion. And I wouldn't dare visiting a temple of any denomination and not follow their rules. That's why I have no interest in visiting any religious site. What I don't like is a public school "forcing" religious rules on my kids. And if you don't think the school is forcing them, I'd argue that the school is in a position of power. You might argue they might opt out but kids that age usually want to do whatever the other kids their age do.

NP. OP, it does appear to me that you’re acting out of intolerance and, frankly, selfishness. This world needs more love, more understanding, and more support for other cultures and belief systems. Requesting that your child follow the norms of another culture is part of showing respect for that culture. The school isn’t “forcing them.” As you already stated, you can opt out. This seems like an unusual fight to pick. Instead of arguing that the school is somehow using its power to abuse you, what if you reframe your thinking to seeing this as an opportunity for education and an opportunity to show respect to another culture?

How is tolerating the subjugation of girls and women an acceptable form of “respect”? If anything, as a child I would learn to hate religion and be intolerant of such ignorance and misogyny. But evidently it’s completely cool to DCUM that the girls will be forced to cover up and exhibit their virtue while the boys are not required.

As a man, when I visit a synagogue as a visitor or tourist, I manage to cover my head without ever being subjugated or hating Judaism. When I visit a mosque as a visitor or tourist, I wear loose fitting clothing and long pants and sleeves without being subjugated or hating Islam.

There is a difference between choosing to go as a tourist and going as part of a school sponsored trip. If the dress code is different for boys and girls and distributed in writing, OP should complain to the principal and DCPS and state that their child will both attend and adhere to the dress code for boys and that you will be happy to file a civil rights complaint if the school has a problem with it.

You sound like book banner. Don't stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no viewpoints in the world that don't comply with your views.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism and mamy other religions exist in the world whether you have knowledge of them or not. Don't be ignorant. Bring educated does not mean you agree with every viewpoint or artwork or religion or author, etc. That you study.

Public schools don't get to apply discriminatory dress codes or requirements. If the school feels head coverings are necessary for girls, they can either mandate them for boys too or find another field trip.

They are not supposed to teach their pupils about discrimination?

The school does not " feel head coverings are necessary". They feel that education about major world religions is necessary. And part of that education is that these religions treat men and women differently.

It does not mean the school condones it, it means they are not pretending it does not exist.

I agree! Like, if the school visited South Africa during apartheid the black kids should be relegated to black only facilities. Or a visit to Germany in 1941, the Jewish kids should wear stars on their arms. Cause, you know, schools can't pretend this stuff doesn't exist.

(Yes, this is sarcasm. Because PP's response was insipid and weak minded.)

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks to some of the (minority of) constructive comments in this thread. I took the opportunity that this field trip brought and started a long conversation about how religion, in general, treat women and also how my kids think/feel about this. It is fantastic to see my kids grow into sensible and respecting human beings. The conversation is enriching both for me and for my kids, I hope! For that I thank the school and some of you people with your different perspectives.

Apparently, the school change the mosque they are planning on visiting and are no longer requiring girls to cover their head/hair. As far as I know the school decided this on their own (I didn't complain nor did any of the other parents I talked to about this issue). This speaks well of Deal, I think.

In any case, I had decided to let my kids decide what to do. They told me that they didn't mind covering their hair/head, that they find it strange but they wanted to go on the field trip. I told them that I respected their decision and that was happy for them.

For me, it was an interesting learning experience as well.

Finally, I want to say that many of you need to slow down before insulting/jumping to conclusions about fellow posters here. FWIW, I wrote only the comments announcing that I was OP and I don't think I was disrespectful. Maybe I was inaccurate, maybe my tone was wrong? I don't know. But many of you jump off at me with insults or misrepresenting the things I said. It's ok, it's an anonymous forum and it's always hard to have a nuanced conversation via writing only. If anything, this also confirm that religion is poison. This is not hate: I don't hate religious people; you are free to believe and do whatever you want as long as you don't bother your fellow citizens/neighbors. Be happy, be well. In peace,

OP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hard pass. Ask to see if there is an in-school option. Having had family members forcibly veiled (even though not mandated by the Quran) I cannot condone forcing children to veil during school (state actor). Adults make their own choices in a democratic society. Children should not be forced. It is always disappointing when Western feminists fail their ideals. Being Liberal does not mean supporting illiberal ideals or holding of the patriarchy.

Also disappointing that you failed to notice the school has made no such official requirement.

It’s in the original post. But I get it you see Islam as primitive and WOC as being less than and less deserving of rights. Consider reading more Islamic feminists when not trolling DCUM.

And it was disproven in subsequent posts. Try reading the thread before you comment. Is this the depth of understanding you usually bring to your “reading?”

It was actually not disproven - in fact a woman wrote about being required by the mosque to wear a head covering. That is a common practice in misjads. Again, if families want to do make their daughters wear a headscarf- that’s on their conscience. But this is a school trip - during school hours. The school should provide an in-school option for parents who want to opt out of this misogynistic practice and/or demonstrate political consciousness and solidarity with the women and girls in Iran.

Please read this post one more time when you are not so heated and angry. No, this won’t weigh on the conscience of most people, who will see this as an opportunity to learn about a different culture. No, most people will not worry about the “misogynistic practice” because they will appreciate that there are American Muslims who choose to wear a head covering because they want to, not because they have to.

I’m fascinated by this distorted “tolerance.” We are called to support others. Is another woman’s head covering here in the US really such an affront to you? If so, that’s unfortunate.

NP. I don’t think anyone on this thread has a problem with women CHOOSING to wear a headscarf. We have a problem with a public school forcing that choice on girls to participate in a school field trip.

Do you really not see the difference?

No, to be honest, I don’t. I would want my daughter to show respect to those whose house she enters. It’s the right thing to do.

It seems as if students can CHOOSE to wear a scarf on this trip. So what, exactly, is the problem?

The choice is wear a scarf, or skip the trip. Public schools aren't allowed to impose discriminatory dress codes, even on optional events.

The school isn't imposing a dress code -- you will lose this fight. And I agree you are being disrespectful to Muslims.

Groups I am not required to be respectful and tolerant of: nazis, white nationalists, muslims, catholics and other oppressive religious regimes that control and subjugate women, insurrectionists and similar. If you abuse and subjugate women or other groups you don't get my respect or civility. Your defense is an age old defense of the indefensible.

Not sure it's reasonable to say all Muslims control and subjugate women. And surely some Jews do the same. Do you object to the trip to the synagogue, too?

The base of the religion (like many others) absolutely seeks to subjugate and control women. Not all Nazis want to kill all jews and blacks. Some just want them kept in their place. Are you suggesting I can't condemn people who go to their meetings, give them money and support them?

P.S. Love your childish "whataboutism". Do you wanna go blow for blow and compare clitectomies to pedophile priests to the horrors wrought by all religions. Jews too, since you seem to think I think that's any different; no women rabbis for the orthodox and no problem with teen brides in that community.

Since you appear to be so concerned about the treatment of women, I have a question for you: I’m a woman who finds comfort in the Catholic Church. My faith has gotten me through some very, very hard times in my life. I actually find that faith and participation in a faith-based community lifts me up. I’m a stronger woman because of it. It’s my choice to participate. Nobody, parents included, encouraged this.

Does your feminism extend to granting me my choice? Does your feminism extend to granting a Muslim woman the choice to wear a head covering? I think you see where I’m going here.

Ate you pro choice? I respect your religious choices as long as you don't try to impose it on anyone else like my daughters.

I vote pro-choice for that very reason, but I will not personally have one.

According to Pew Research, over half of American Catholics believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases.

The money you give to that church pays for anti-abortion legislation and politicians. So, on behalf of those of us that are actually pro-choice, you and the church you support that make abortion illegal for millions of women can take your duplicity and go to that place you believe exists after death.

I appreciate you are trying to insult me. You're welcome to, of course, but I generally don't get angry or resentful. Life's too short.

My tax dollars go to plenty of things I don't support. I'm sure you don't support everything your tax dollars buy, either. I suspect your way of combatting that is voting for candidates whose values align with yours, correct? As I've already stated, my values are that people should have choice... even if those choices don't align with my own beliefs.

As for my money that goes to the Catholic Church, it also supports our local and national charities. I work directly with them, so I clearly see the $$ my parish puts into helping our local community. My pocketbook and my personal hours are going to continue helping others.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Please. I'm a Catholic and I feel 100% equal to men. I've never ONCE felt "less than" during a Mass or any Church gathering. Ironically, it seems to be the self-identified athiests on this thread who want to define me as less than a man.

You may feel that way but it isn’t what your church is teaching. (I’m married to a former Catholic.) But I don’t care, pray your to magical sky friend. You are free to live under the illusion that the male dominated institution has women’s best interests in mind. 🙄 I don’t want my daughter poisoned by religion. Life is better when you’re free to be a good person just because you value people, not because your trying to make it to heaven.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Please. I'm a Catholic and I feel 100% equal to men. I've never ONCE felt "less than" during a Mass or any Church gathering. Ironically, it seems to be the self-identified athiests on this thread who want to define me as less than a man.

You may feel that way but it isn’t what your church is teaching. (I’m married to a former Catholic.) But I don’t care, pray your to magical sky friend. You are free to live under the illusion that the male dominated institution has women’s best interests in mind. 🙄 I don’t want my daughter poisoned by religion. Life is better when you’re free to be a good person just because you value people, not because your trying to make it to heaven.

You're really trying too hard. The Catholic Church officially recognizes men to be not only equal, but they compliment each other. We also hold women in high regard. (Have you seen how we tend to feel about Mary?) Since you are not Catholic, and your husband is a former Catholic, it seems as if my beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with you. You are welcome to believe what you want, as I am welcome to believe what I want. Since you mention you don't want your daughter "poisoned" by religion, I would add that we should also take care not to poison our chlldren based on our own myopic views.

That's why this thread is so interesting. The field trip in question allows children to get a small glimpse into a culture that is not their own. That's when true learning and understanding can occur. My child doesn't go to Deal, but I'll admit that this field trip makes me wish for a moment that she does. Fortunately, she is currently taking a world religions class at her Catholic school, so she is getting some exposure to cultures that are not her own. That will her her be the world citizen that we hope for her to be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Please. I'm a Catholic and I feel 100% equal to men. I've never ONCE felt "less than" during a Mass or any Church gathering. Ironically, it seems to be the self-identified athiests on this thread who want to define me as less than a man.

You may feel that way but it isn’t what your church is teaching. (I’m married to a former Catholic.) But I don’t care, pray your to magical sky friend. You are free to live under the illusion that the male dominated institution has women’s best interests in mind. 🙄 I don’t want my daughter poisoned by religion. Life is better when you’re free to be a good person just because you value people, not because your trying to make it to heaven.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Please. I'm a Catholic and I feel 100% equal to men. I've never ONCE felt "less than" during a Mass or any Church gathering. Ironically, it seems to be the self-identified athiests on this thread who want to define me as less than a man.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.