Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is from the article OP linked above in first post.

"However, should a host not cancel first, the situation becomes more complex, particularly with Airbnb, given its cancellation policy specifically excludes the annual storm season in Florida. Airbnb says that it offers refunds for “events beyond one’s control”, including some extreme weather events and natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, but despite this, the company deems tropical hurricanes and storms in the state between June and November to be “foreseeable” and its cancellation policy does not result in refunds under those circumstances.

Meanwhile, a Vrbo spokeswoman told The New York Times that “natural disasters, such as hurricanes or wildfires, do not override the cancellation policy set by the host and agreed to by the guest when they book”.

BUT this isn't a cancellation due to a hurricane. It is a cancellation because the condo is not habitable/destroyed/island is not available to non-owners. Definitely dispute with the credit card, airbnb are going to lose.

DP. You don’t know that the unit is uninhabitable, and you don’t know that it won’t be available to non-visitors next week. But all that aside, all of those issue absolutely do arise out of a hurricane and so very likely does fall within the scope of this policy.

So you’re saying if the house wasn’t inhabitable for other reasons, then the renter would be entitled to a refund? That makes no sense.

Sure it makes sense if hurricanes are specifically excluded, which it sounds like they are.

What's the time limit on this? Some VRBO and AirBnb reservations don't allow for cancelations after 24-36 hours. If a house was washed away in this hurricane and someone booked for next June, does the owner still keep the money if there is literally no house available? What if the house was damaged but the owner just can't be bothered to make needed repairs for 6 months because they get to keep all the rental fees anyways? That can't be right. The owner has an obligation to live up to their end of an agreement and provide a rental unit. It's not a blank check to cite a hurricane that happened in the past and keep the money.

In reality, this doesn’t happen because if renters show up and the property is uninhabitable, they will complaint to VRBO/Airbnb, likely get their money back under the policies, and the owner can be banned from using the service again. The issue right now is the timing where the owner may be in a bind because, if they cancel the reservation now but their unit would be inhabitable next week, their insurance won’t pay anything for the business income loss and it will all come out of their pocket. If the owner does not know what the status will be at the time of OP’s reservation next week but had reason to hope the unit will be inhabitable at that point, they basically need to keep the reservation unless/until they know it won’t be inhabitable for OP’s reservation. OP can wait and see what happens next week and hope the owner cancels first so she gets her refund, but if she goes ahead and cancels now, she may be stuck paying anyway.

Will the causeway be repaired by next week? Hard to believe the owner actually thinks tourists will be let on to the island in a week’s time…

The owner doesn’t need to believe this. VRBO’s policy excludes refunds for hurricanes in Florida.

Fortunately, credit card issuers require refunds when services paid for are not provided. Their contracts override VBRO contracts when there is a conflict (also in the credit card contracts)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is from the article OP linked above in first post.

"However, should a host not cancel first, the situation becomes more complex, particularly with Airbnb, given its cancellation policy specifically excludes the annual storm season in Florida. Airbnb says that it offers refunds for “events beyond one’s control”, including some extreme weather events and natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, but despite this, the company deems tropical hurricanes and storms in the state between June and November to be “foreseeable” and its cancellation policy does not result in refunds under those circumstances.

Meanwhile, a Vrbo spokeswoman told The New York Times that “natural disasters, such as hurricanes or wildfires, do not override the cancellation policy set by the host and agreed to by the guest when they book”.

BUT this isn't a cancellation due to a hurricane. It is a cancellation because the condo is not habitable/destroyed/island is not available to non-owners. Definitely dispute with the credit card, airbnb are going to lose.

DP. You don’t know that the unit is uninhabitable, and you don’t know that it won’t be available to non-visitors next week. But all that aside, all of those issue absolutely do arise out of a hurricane and so very likely does fall within the scope of this policy.

So you’re saying if the house wasn’t inhabitable for other reasons, then the renter would be entitled to a refund? That makes no sense.

Sure it makes sense if hurricanes are specifically excluded, which it sounds like they are.

What's the time limit on this? Some VRBO and AirBnb reservations don't allow for cancelations after 24-36 hours. If a house was washed away in this hurricane and someone booked for next June, does the owner still keep the money if there is literally no house available? What if the house was damaged but the owner just can't be bothered to make needed repairs for 6 months because they get to keep all the rental fees anyways? That can't be right. The owner has an obligation to live up to their end of an agreement and provide a rental unit. It's not a blank check to cite a hurricane that happened in the past and keep the money.

In reality, this doesn’t happen because if renters show up and the property is uninhabitable, they will complaint to VRBO/Airbnb, likely get their money back under the policies, and the owner can be banned from using the service again. The issue right now is the timing where the owner may be in a bind because, if they cancel the reservation now but their unit would be inhabitable next week, their insurance won’t pay anything for the business income loss and it will all come out of their pocket. If the owner does not know what the status will be at the time of OP’s reservation next week but had reason to hope the unit will be inhabitable at that point, they basically need to keep the reservation unless/until they know it won’t be inhabitable for OP’s reservation. OP can wait and see what happens next week and hope the owner cancels first so she gets her refund, but if she goes ahead and cancels now, she may be stuck paying anyway.

Will the causeway be repaired by next week? Hard to believe the owner actually thinks tourists will be let on to the island in a week’s time…

The owner doesn’t need to believe this. VRBO’s policy excludes refunds for hurricanes in Florida.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is from the article OP linked above in first post.

"However, should a host not cancel first, the situation becomes more complex, particularly with Airbnb, given its cancellation policy specifically excludes the annual storm season in Florida. Airbnb says that it offers refunds for “events beyond one’s control”, including some extreme weather events and natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, but despite this, the company deems tropical hurricanes and storms in the state between June and November to be “foreseeable” and its cancellation policy does not result in refunds under those circumstances.

Meanwhile, a Vrbo spokeswoman told The New York Times that “natural disasters, such as hurricanes or wildfires, do not override the cancellation policy set by the host and agreed to by the guest when they book”.

BUT this isn't a cancellation due to a hurricane. It is a cancellation because the condo is not habitable/destroyed/island is not available to non-owners. Definitely dispute with the credit card, airbnb are going to lose.

DP. You don’t know that the unit is uninhabitable, and you don’t know that it won’t be available to non-visitors next week. But all that aside, all of those issue absolutely do arise out of a hurricane and so very likely does fall within the scope of this policy.

So you’re saying if the house wasn’t inhabitable for other reasons, then the renter would be entitled to a refund? That makes no sense.

Sure it makes sense if hurricanes are specifically excluded, which it sounds like they are.

What's the time limit on this? Some VRBO and AirBnb reservations don't allow for cancelations after 24-36 hours. If a house was washed away in this hurricane and someone booked for next June, does the owner still keep the money if there is literally no house available? What if the house was damaged but the owner just can't be bothered to make needed repairs for 6 months because they get to keep all the rental fees anyways? That can't be right. The owner has an obligation to live up to their end of an agreement and provide a rental unit. It's not a blank check to cite a hurricane that happened in the past and keep the money.

In reality, this doesn’t happen because if renters show up and the property is uninhabitable, they will complaint to VRBO/Airbnb, likely get their money back under the policies, and the owner can be banned from using the service again. The issue right now is the timing where the owner may be in a bind because, if they cancel the reservation now but their unit would be inhabitable next week, their insurance won’t pay anything for the business income loss and it will all come out of their pocket. If the owner does not know what the status will be at the time of OP’s reservation next week but had reason to hope the unit will be inhabitable at that point, they basically need to keep the reservation unless/until they know it won’t be inhabitable for OP’s reservation. OP can wait and see what happens next week and hope the owner cancels first so she gets her refund, but if she goes ahead and cancels now, she may be stuck paying anyway.

Will the causeway be repaired by next week? Hard to believe the owner actually thinks tourists will be let on to the island in a week’s time…

The owner doesn’t need to believe this. VRBO’s policy excludes refunds for hurricanes in Florida.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is from the article OP linked above in first post.

"However, should a host not cancel first, the situation becomes more complex, particularly with Airbnb, given its cancellation policy specifically excludes the annual storm season in Florida. Airbnb says that it offers refunds for “events beyond one’s control”, including some extreme weather events and natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, but despite this, the company deems tropical hurricanes and storms in the state between June and November to be “foreseeable” and its cancellation policy does not result in refunds under those circumstances.

Meanwhile, a Vrbo spokeswoman told The New York Times that “natural disasters, such as hurricanes or wildfires, do not override the cancellation policy set by the host and agreed to by the guest when they book”.

BUT this isn't a cancellation due to a hurricane. It is a cancellation because the condo is not habitable/destroyed/island is not available to non-owners. Definitely dispute with the credit card, airbnb are going to lose.

DP. You don’t know that the unit is uninhabitable, and you don’t know that it won’t be available to non-visitors next week. But all that aside, all of those issue absolutely do arise out of a hurricane and so very likely does fall within the scope of this policy.

So you’re saying if the house wasn’t inhabitable for other reasons, then the renter would be entitled to a refund? That makes no sense.

Sure it makes sense if hurricanes are specifically excluded, which it sounds like they are.

What's the time limit on this? Some VRBO and AirBnb reservations don't allow for cancelations after 24-36 hours. If a house was washed away in this hurricane and someone booked for next June, does the owner still keep the money if there is literally no house available? What if the house was damaged but the owner just can't be bothered to make needed repairs for 6 months because they get to keep all the rental fees anyways? That can't be right. The owner has an obligation to live up to their end of an agreement and provide a rental unit. It's not a blank check to cite a hurricane that happened in the past and keep the money.

In reality, this doesn’t happen because if renters show up and the property is uninhabitable, they will complaint to VRBO/Airbnb, likely get their money back under the policies, and the owner can be banned from using the service again. The issue right now is the timing where the owner may be in a bind because, if they cancel the reservation now but their unit would be inhabitable next week, their insurance won’t pay anything for the business income loss and it will all come out of their pocket. If the owner does not know what the status will be at the time of OP’s reservation next week but had reason to hope the unit will be inhabitable at that point, they basically need to keep the reservation unless/until they know it won’t be inhabitable for OP’s reservation. OP can wait and see what happens next week and hope the owner cancels first so she gets her refund, but if she goes ahead and cancels now, she may be stuck paying anyway.

Will the causeway be repaired by next week? Hard to believe the owner actually thinks tourists will be let on to the island in a week’s time…

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is from the article OP linked above in first post.

"However, should a host not cancel first, the situation becomes more complex, particularly with Airbnb, given its cancellation policy specifically excludes the annual storm season in Florida. Airbnb says that it offers refunds for “events beyond one’s control”, including some extreme weather events and natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, but despite this, the company deems tropical hurricanes and storms in the state between June and November to be “foreseeable” and its cancellation policy does not result in refunds under those circumstances.

Meanwhile, a Vrbo spokeswoman told The New York Times that “natural disasters, such as hurricanes or wildfires, do not override the cancellation policy set by the host and agreed to by the guest when they book”.

BUT this isn't a cancellation due to a hurricane. It is a cancellation because the condo is not habitable/destroyed/island is not available to non-owners. Definitely dispute with the credit card, airbnb are going to lose.

DP. You don’t know that the unit is uninhabitable, and you don’t know that it won’t be available to non-visitors next week. But all that aside, all of those issue absolutely do arise out of a hurricane and so very likely does fall within the scope of this policy.

So you’re saying if the house wasn’t inhabitable for other reasons, then the renter would be entitled to a refund? That makes no sense.

Sure it makes sense if hurricanes are specifically excluded, which it sounds like they are.

What's the time limit on this? Some VRBO and AirBnb reservations don't allow for cancelations after 24-36 hours. If a house was washed away in this hurricane and someone booked for next June, does the owner still keep the money if there is literally no house available? What if the house was damaged but the owner just can't be bothered to make needed repairs for 6 months because they get to keep all the rental fees anyways? That can't be right. The owner has an obligation to live up to their end of an agreement and provide a rental unit. It's not a blank check to cite a hurricane that happened in the past and keep the money.

I can’t speak to your hypothetical scenario in which someone booked a VRBO nine months in advance and there was a hurricane in the interim, but right now it seems like not all Ian cancellations are being refunded.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is from the article OP linked above in first post.

"However, should a host not cancel first, the situation becomes more complex, particularly with Airbnb, given its cancellation policy specifically excludes the annual storm season in Florida. Airbnb says that it offers refunds for “events beyond one’s control”, including some extreme weather events and natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, but despite this, the company deems tropical hurricanes and storms in the state between June and November to be “foreseeable” and its cancellation policy does not result in refunds under those circumstances.

Meanwhile, a Vrbo spokeswoman told The New York Times that “natural disasters, such as hurricanes or wildfires, do not override the cancellation policy set by the host and agreed to by the guest when they book”.

BUT this isn't a cancellation due to a hurricane. It is a cancellation because the condo is not habitable/destroyed/island is not available to non-owners. Definitely dispute with the credit card, airbnb are going to lose.

DP. You don’t know that the unit is uninhabitable, and you don’t know that it won’t be available to non-visitors next week. But all that aside, all of those issue absolutely do arise out of a hurricane and so very likely does fall within the scope of this policy.

So you’re saying if the house wasn’t inhabitable for other reasons, then the renter would be entitled to a refund? That makes no sense.

Sure it makes sense if hurricanes are specifically excluded, which it sounds like they are.

What's the time limit on this? Some VRBO and AirBnb reservations don't allow for cancelations after 24-36 hours. If a house was washed away in this hurricane and someone booked for next June, does the owner still keep the money if there is literally no house available? What if the house was damaged but the owner just can't be bothered to make needed repairs for 6 months because they get to keep all the rental fees anyways? That can't be right. The owner has an obligation to live up to their end of an agreement and provide a rental unit. It's not a blank check to cite a hurricane that happened in the past and keep the money.

In reality, this doesn’t happen because if renters show up and the property is uninhabitable, they will complaint to VRBO/Airbnb, likely get their money back under the policies, and the owner can be banned from using the service again. The issue right now is the timing where the owner may be in a bind because, if they cancel the reservation now but their unit would be inhabitable next week, their insurance won’t pay anything for the business income loss and it will all come out of their pocket. If the owner does not know what the status will be at the time of OP’s reservation next week but had reason to hope the unit will be inhabitable at that point, they basically need to keep the reservation unless/until they know it won’t be inhabitable for OP’s reservation. OP can wait and see what happens next week and hope the owner cancels first so she gets her refund, but if she goes ahead and cancels now, she may be stuck paying anyway.

Anonymous wrote:We rented a VRBO house a few years back and arrived to find it had no drinkable water. We got our money back, though it took a while.
"Hurricane" provisions don't matter, nor does force majeure. You have a contract saying you have access to a facility with certain things in it: each property has a list when you book: air conditioning, for instance. If the property is no longer in the same condition as when you booked, you clearly have a case for breach of contract.
Force the owner to confirm that the property is exactly as advertised. It would be up to you to prove that it's not the case but if they lie, it's fraud.

Anonymous wrote:We rented a VRBO house a few years back and arrived to find it had no drinkable water. We got our money back, though it took a while.
"Hurricane" provisions don't matter, nor does force majeure. You have a contract saying you have access to a facility with certain things in it: each property has a list when you book: air conditioning, for instance. If the property is no longer in the same condition as when you booked, you clearly have a case for breach of contract.
Force the owner to confirm that the property is exactly as advertised. It would be up to you to prove that it's not the case but if they lie, it's fraud.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get that maybe legally OP is out the $. However, it’s just wrong for the owner to not refund the money given the condo is uninhabitable. It’s unethical and bad karma.

No, it isn’t. People get what they pay for in this context. People generally turn to VRBO or AirBNB when they don’t want to pay higher rates to rent a house through a rental company or pay for a hotel room/suite. But as the NYT article posted a page or two back shows, those bargains come with drawbacks. People who paid for hotels or rented through established rental agencies are generally getting refunds or credits for a future stay, because that’s one of the benefits you get when you pay more for these services/facilities. If you go the discount route *and* you go even cheaper by not buying trip insurance, you are getting the bargain you chose if you aren’t entitled to a refund, and there is nothing unethical about holding someone to their agreements.

Not necessarily - again if you don’t purchase the hurricane insurance with the established rental agency you are out of luck!

That is very true, but in that case they typically offer an option to purchase trip insurance through them if you don’t want to find it on your own. Obviously there are exceptions so people should always read the rental agreement no matter how they found the place, but you are more likely to have options with a rental company than renting straight from an individual owner (which is effectively what VRBO/Airbnb are).

You also need to be very careful about what the hurricane insurance covers- sometimes it’s just the days where there is a mandatory evacuation, not two weeks later when the WEATHER is fine but the property/services might not be.

+1. I can tell you right now that not all policies will cover OP’s situation.

Thats because the hosts should refunds OPs money and have their own insurance coverage to protect against lost revenue due to hurricane repairs.

Your feelings on the matter are irrelevant and don't align with the facts.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is from the article OP linked above in first post.

"However, should a host not cancel first, the situation becomes more complex, particularly with Airbnb, given its cancellation policy specifically excludes the annual storm season in Florida. Airbnb says that it offers refunds for “events beyond one’s control”, including some extreme weather events and natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, but despite this, the company deems tropical hurricanes and storms in the state between June and November to be “foreseeable” and its cancellation policy does not result in refunds under those circumstances.

Meanwhile, a Vrbo spokeswoman told The New York Times that “natural disasters, such as hurricanes or wildfires, do not override the cancellation policy set by the host and agreed to by the guest when they book”.

BUT this isn't a cancellation due to a hurricane. It is a cancellation because the condo is not habitable/destroyed/island is not available to non-owners. Definitely dispute with the credit card, airbnb are going to lose.

DP. You don’t know that the unit is uninhabitable, and you don’t know that it won’t be available to non-visitors next week. But all that aside, all of those issue absolutely do arise out of a hurricane and so very likely does fall within the scope of this policy.

So you’re saying if the house wasn’t inhabitable for other reasons, then the renter would be entitled to a refund? That makes no sense.

Sure it makes sense if hurricanes are specifically excluded, which it sounds like they are.

What's the time limit on this? Some VRBO and AirBnb reservations don't allow for cancelations after 24-36 hours. If a house was washed away in this hurricane and someone booked for next June, does the owner still keep the money if there is literally no house available? What if the house was damaged but the owner just can't be bothered to make needed repairs for 6 months because they get to keep all the rental fees anyways? That can't be right. The owner has an obligation to live up to their end of an agreement and provide a rental unit. It's not a blank check to cite a hurricane that happened in the past and keep the money.