Anonymous wrote:I’m afraid this will be a busy summer for lawyers.

They are called Attorneys Admiralty, actually

I’m afraid this will be a busy summer for lawyers.

They will recover the pieces of the submersible so they can figure out what happened and learn from it. No human remains will be left after the implosion.

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Anonymous wrote:Pardon me if this has already been answered, but didn’t this vessel survive previous dives to the Titanic? How many trips had it been on? I’m surprised an accident had not happened sooner. What made this trip different where the materials were insufficient to handle the pressure that it was able to handle on previous dives?

This was its third trip. Any number of things could have gone wrong, and it had experienced problems on previous trips. With every dive, the protective materials get weaker from the pressure.

No, not third. I think at least 5th.
It’s called materials fatigue, or simply wear and tear from the immense water pressure so deep in the ocean on a material that was not safe to spend many hours there.

This is what I find most staggering about this entire situation. Rush and especial PH had to know the physics behind the sub and that the materials wouldn't hold up after so many dives. Why would he deny testing of the hull to find # x failure rate? Saving money? Seems having a certification would have garnered him more respect in the diving community and more business.

Science is about probabilities.

Most of the community thought this material was too risky (based upon earlier work). This guy disagreed, and took great pride in "breaking rules."

So, that hubris made him think he could defy physics I guess.

As a real engineer, whatever that means, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with carbon fiber. However, as far as I know, this is a rather novel application. How you measure fatigue and defects would be a huge unknown. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the carbon fiber was too thick to ultrasonically scan for internal defects.

Apparently carbon fiber is great for internal pressure but not external. It does very well in spaceships, for example. But it not a good idea for deep sea pressure. They already know this. It might hold up once or twice but it fails. This isn’t some great unknown.

Very different pressures. The rocket is holding in 1 atmosphere. The submersible is holding out 400 atmospheres.

That’s correct.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pardon me if this has already been answered, but didn’t this vessel survive previous dives to the Titanic? How many trips had it been on? I’m surprised an accident had not happened sooner. What made this trip different where the materials were insufficient to handle the pressure that it was able to handle on previous dives?

This was its third trip. Any number of things could have gone wrong, and it had experienced problems on previous trips. With every dive, the protective materials get weaker from the pressure.

No, not third. I think at least 5th.
It’s called materials fatigue, or simply wear and tear from the immense water pressure so deep in the ocean on a material that was not safe to spend many hours there.

This site says only 3 times, once a year since 2021: : https://metro.co.uk/2023/06/22/how-many-times-has-the-titan-gone-to-the-titanic-and-how-deep-is-the-wreck-18994926/.

The video I saw yesterday had someone who was on the 3rd trip of 2023 May 29-June 6. So this was trip #4 of 5 for 2023 according to her.

If you listened better she said weather scuttled the first two missions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pardon me if this has already been answered, but didn’t this vessel survive previous dives to the Titanic? How many trips had it been on? I’m surprised an accident had not happened sooner. What made this trip different where the materials were insufficient to handle the pressure that it was able to handle on previous dives?

This was its third trip. Any number of things could have gone wrong, and it had experienced problems on previous trips. With every dive, the protective materials get weaker from the pressure.

No, not third. I think at least 5th.
It’s called materials fatigue, or simply wear and tear from the immense water pressure so deep in the ocean on a material that was not safe to spend many hours there.

This site says only 3 times, once a year since 2021: : https://metro.co.uk/2023/06/22/how-many-times-has-the-titan-gone-to-the-titanic-and-how-deep-is-the-wreck-18994926/.

The video I saw yesterday had someone who was on the 3rd trip of 2023 May 29-June 6. So this was trip #4 of 5 for 2023 according to her.

Anonymous wrote:James Cameron is saying he knew since Monday (when he first heard this news) that the submersible definitely imploded.

He believes the Coast Guard, Navy, etc. knew as well & that it was wrong of them to not let the public know this at the time.
He says it was wrong for them to string the public along with false hope.

I think as outspoken as James Cameron is (and always has been!) if this were true he would have said something on Mon.
But he never did so I am not inclined to believe him.

I believe him. It's also been revealed that the Navy did know when it imploded. I think nothing was said to the public because they didn't have visual proof until the USCG arrived on the scene to explore. Once they had visual confirmation, it was all released.

That's SOP in any disaster.

I listened to a podcast with the father who lost a child in the Uvalde shooting. He said how gut-wrenching it was to be sat waiting with the other parents after the last bus of rescued kids arrived and left. He said they all knew at that time that the group they were in was the parents whose kids didn't make it, but no one in charge could say that to most parents because they couldn't make positive IDs on most of the kids. Even after having to give DNA samples to the techs so IDs could be made, no one said outright "I'm sorry, your child is deceased" because there wasn't definite proof. It makes sense, but he said it also gives so much false hope because you think of a million 'what if' situations to keep hope alive even though common sense should take over.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pardon me if this has already been answered, but didn’t this vessel survive previous dives to the Titanic? How many trips had it been on? I’m surprised an accident had not happened sooner. What made this trip different where the materials were insufficient to handle the pressure that it was able to handle on previous dives?

This was its third trip. Any number of things could have gone wrong, and it had experienced problems on previous trips. With every dive, the protective materials get weaker from the pressure.

No, not third. I think at least 5th.
It’s called materials fatigue, or simply wear and tear from the immense water pressure so deep in the ocean on a material that was not safe to spend many hours there.

This site says only 3 times, once a year since 2021: : https://metro.co.uk/2023/06/22/how-many-times-has-the-titan-gone-to-the-titanic-and-how-deep-is-the-wreck-18994926/.

Anonymous wrote:I think Cameron was speaking after talking with the engineer. Some people are better at public speaking than others. He’s an expert on that.

The other guy isn't an engineer either.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pardon me if this has already been answered, but didn’t this vessel survive previous dives to the Titanic? How many trips had it been on? I’m surprised an accident had not happened sooner. What made this trip different where the materials were insufficient to handle the pressure that it was able to handle on previous dives?

This was its third trip. Any number of things could have gone wrong, and it had experienced problems on previous trips. With every dive, the protective materials get weaker from the pressure.

No, not third. I think at least 5th.
It’s called materials fatigue, or simply wear and tear from the immense water pressure so deep in the ocean on a material that was not safe to spend many hours there.

This is what I find most staggering about this entire situation. Rush and especial PH had to know the physics behind the sub and that the materials wouldn't hold up after so many dives. Why would he deny testing of the hull to find # x failure rate? Saving money? Seems having a certification would have garnered him more respect in the diving community and more business.

Science is about probabilities.

Most of the community thought this material was too risky (based upon earlier work). This guy disagreed, and took great pride in "breaking rules."

So, that hubris made him think he could defy physics I guess.

As a real engineer, whatever that means, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with carbon fiber. However, as far as I know, this is a rather novel application. How you measure fatigue and defects would be a huge unknown. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the carbon fiber was too thick to ultrasonically scan for internal defects.

Apparently carbon fiber is great for internal pressure but not external. It does very well in spaceships, for example. But it not a good idea for deep sea pressure. They already know this. It might hold up once or twice but it fails. This isn’t some great unknown.

Very different pressures. The rocket is holding in 1 atmosphere. The submersible is holding out 400 atmospheres.

I think Cameron was speaking after talking with the engineer. Some people are better at public speaking than others. He’s an expert on that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pardon me if this has already been answered, but didn’t this vessel survive previous dives to the Titanic? How many trips had it been on? I’m surprised an accident had not happened sooner. What made this trip different where the materials were insufficient to handle the pressure that it was able to handle on previous dives?

This was its third trip. Any number of things could have gone wrong, and it had experienced problems on previous trips. With every dive, the protective materials get weaker from the pressure.

No, not third. I think at least 5th.
It’s called materials fatigue, or simply wear and tear from the immense water pressure so deep in the ocean on a material that was not safe to spend many hours there.

This is what I find most staggering about this entire situation. Rush and especial PH had to know the physics behind the sub and that the materials wouldn't hold up after so many dives. Why would he deny testing of the hull to find # x failure rate? Saving money? Seems having a certification would have garnered him more respect in the diving community and more business.

Science is about probabilities.

Most of the community thought this material was too risky (based upon earlier work). This guy disagreed, and took great pride in "breaking rules."

So, that hubris made him think he could defy physics I guess.

As a real engineer, whatever that means, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with carbon fiber. However, as far as I know, this is a rather novel application. How you measure fatigue and defects would be a huge unknown. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the carbon fiber was too thick to ultrasonically scan for internal defects.

How would you attach the titanium cap to the carbon fiber body? An epoxy of some sort is all I can think of. Not great for going to an environment with 6,000 psi!

Duct tape, duh.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pardon me if this has already been answered, but didn’t this vessel survive previous dives to the Titanic? How many trips had it been on? I’m surprised an accident had not happened sooner. What made this trip different where the materials were insufficient to handle the pressure that it was able to handle on previous dives?

This was its third trip. Any number of things could have gone wrong, and it had experienced problems on previous trips. With every dive, the protective materials get weaker from the pressure.

No, not third. I think at least 5th.
It’s called materials fatigue, or simply wear and tear from the immense water pressure so deep in the ocean on a material that was not safe to spend many hours there.

This is what I find most staggering about this entire situation. Rush and especial PH had to know the physics behind the sub and that the materials wouldn't hold up after so many dives. Why would he deny testing of the hull to find # x failure rate? Saving money? Seems having a certification would have garnered him more respect in the diving community and more business.

Science is about probabilities.

Most of the community thought this material was too risky (based upon earlier work). This guy disagreed, and took great pride in "breaking rules."

So, that hubris made him think he could defy physics I guess.

As a real engineer, whatever that means, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with carbon fiber. However, as far as I know, this is a rather novel application. How you measure fatigue and defects would be a huge unknown. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the carbon fiber was too thick to ultrasonically scan for internal defects.

How would you attach the titanium cap to the carbon fiber body? An epoxy of some sort is all I can think of. Not great for going to an environment with 6,000 psi!

From what I saw of the construction, it was somewhat clever. They had a titanium ring with a grove to receive the carbon fiber tube epoxied to the ends of the tube. Pressure would make it seal tighter. However, you would want to make sure there are no voids in that bond or it will flex and distort relative to the rest of the ring

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pardon me if this has already been answered, but didn’t this vessel survive previous dives to the Titanic? How many trips had it been on? I’m surprised an accident had not happened sooner. What made this trip different where the materials were insufficient to handle the pressure that it was able to handle on previous dives?

This was its third trip. Any number of things could have gone wrong, and it had experienced problems on previous trips. With every dive, the protective materials get weaker from the pressure.

No, not third. I think at least 5th.
It’s called materials fatigue, or simply wear and tear from the immense water pressure so deep in the ocean on a material that was not safe to spend many hours there.

This is what I find most staggering about this entire situation. Rush and especial PH had to know the physics behind the sub and that the materials wouldn't hold up after so many dives. Why would he deny testing of the hull to find # x failure rate? Saving money? Seems having a certification would have garnered him more respect in the diving community and more business.

Science is about probabilities.

Most of the community thought this material was too risky (based upon earlier work). This guy disagreed, and took great pride in "breaking rules."

So, that hubris made him think he could defy physics I guess.

As a real engineer, whatever that means, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with carbon fiber. However, as far as I know, this is a rather novel application. How you measure fatigue and defects would be a huge unknown. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the carbon fiber was too thick to ultrasonically scan for internal defects.

Apparently carbon fiber is great for internal pressure but not external. It does very well in spaceships, for example. But it not a good idea for deep sea pressure. They already know this. It might hold up once or twice but it fails. This isn’t some great unknown.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pardon me if this has already been answered, but didn’t this vessel survive previous dives to the Titanic? How many trips had it been on? I’m surprised an accident had not happened sooner. What made this trip different where the materials were insufficient to handle the pressure that it was able to handle on previous dives?

This was its third trip. Any number of things could have gone wrong, and it had experienced problems on previous trips. With every dive, the protective materials get weaker from the pressure.

No, not third. I think at least 5th.
It’s called materials fatigue, or simply wear and tear from the immense water pressure so deep in the ocean on a material that was not safe to spend many hours there.

This is what I find most staggering about this entire situation. Rush and especial PH had to know the physics behind the sub and that the materials wouldn't hold up after so many dives. Why would he deny testing of the hull to find # x failure rate? Saving money? Seems having a certification would have garnered him more respect in the diving community and more business.

Science is about probabilities.

Most of the community thought this material was too risky (based upon earlier work). This guy disagreed, and took great pride in "breaking rules."

So, that hubris made him think he could defy physics I guess.

As a real engineer, whatever that means, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with carbon fiber. However, as far as I know, this is a rather novel application. How you measure fatigue and defects would be a huge unknown. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the carbon fiber was too thick to ultrasonically scan for internal defects.

No, the material had been tried under pressured (undersea) conditions and failed. Decades ago.

Yes, numerous knowledgeable people are saying it can withstand tension (like on the surface of planes) but not forces pushing inward, like in the case of a submersible.