The officer's own PD says he did not follow departmental procedure, which is why they fired him. Not 'suspended without pay pending investigation and appeal'. Fired.

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Anonymous wrote:This idiot failed repeatedly to follow basic commands. The cops did sctew up at times ny giving conflicting commands.

He was pepper sprayed while calmly sitting in his car, with his hands outside the window, just after asking why he was being detained. That is indefensible.

He had been sitting there arguing with the cops for a good long while by that point.

He had every opportunity to not be an idiot, and at each decision point chose idiot.

If you don't want a tense confrontation with the cops, obey directions, don't argue, don't resist.

Was the smart thing to reach to his waist and unbuckle his seatbelt? I would be scared. At least with his hands out of the car, he made sure he was not a threat.

They never even bothered to tell him why they were pulling him over. If they had, he could say "there's a license plate in my window."

Like someone else said, Philando Castile did that and he's dead.

Yes, since they were telling him to do that. Imagine if he had just announced he was undoing his seat belt, done so, opened the door, and gotten out slowly with his hands in view. It isn't complicated nor difficult.

Arguing with the cops is stupid.

You don't know what they think they are doing. You may be innocent. Maybe the cops have the wrong guy...but if the guy they are looking for just shot some people, they are going to be ready for the worst.

So lose the attitude. Don't play lawyer and tell the cops what they are allowed to direct you to do. (Especially when you are wrong. ) Don't argue. Don't resist them.

Just do as directed, slowly, and keep your hands in view.

Like someone else said, Philando Castile did that and he's dead.

So it's a good idea to disobey lawful police orders because the cop in the Philando Castile case screwed up? I love reading these LE threads which contain dozens of idiotic comments from DCUM morons with absolutely no LE training or experience.

A big part of the problem is that the big cop just doesn't get it. The other problem is that most cops are afraid to fight people because they have become dependent on using tazers for the last 15 years.

The point is that it doesn't matter. You can do everything right, and a trigger happy bully can still murder you and call it your fault.

There was no freaking reason to fight here. The man had his hands out the window and was asking questions. Open your mouth and talk to him like a freaking human being.

For too long cops have been on the wrong side of history when it came to treatment of Black people and respect for their rights. Now, in this supposed post racial era where Black people are supposedly equal, we're all just supposed to forget how things were as recently as our parents lifetimes.

Black people don't trust police and they are rightfully terrified. We've done absolutely NOTHING to address the sins of the past, NOTHING to reform police forces that a mere generation ago were hosing down black children with fire hoses and attacking them with dogs. And yall want to act like everything would be okay if we just properly submit to your authority??? Come on. Get real!! Nothing will change until police acknowledge THEIR responsibility in all of this. You have an entire race of people that do not trust you and for damn good reasons.

Yes, you’re right. You can do everything right and still get shot. But that is extremely, extremely rare. Just look at the statistics at how many interactions police have with people per day and how many people were unjustifiably shot. It is minuscule. Your best bet by far is to comply. I’m not sure if you saw the video this guy took from his cell phone but he was clearly setting up the officers and tempting them to do something wrong. I assume he was looking for a pay day.

The fact is, when a subject becomes non compliant it is a huge red flag for police and gets them raised up. They are human beings and a lot of the reaction you are seeing from them is fear about what that guy was up to. Maybe they were wrong and I agree their instructions were unclear, but it is a natural human response to want to control the situation rather than some racial victimizing thing. Try walking a day in their shoes and you will understand why these situations (late at night, tinted out SUV with who knows what in the back, bizarrely non-compliant subject, etc). It’s not to say their actions were perfect but it is a complete stretch to say they were driven by race. Also I believe the cop who deployed the spray was Hispanic.

Excuses, justifications, and deflections. Also, Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race. For example, I am Puerto Rican. I am also Black. I have a friend who is Cuban. She is white. Hispanic countries and people are not immune from white supremacy.

You're so quick to empathize with the officers. "Walk a day in their shoes." Why not also empathize with their victims for a change? Walk a day in their shoes. The officer is the professional. The burden on getting things right, even when they are afraid, should be on them. Not on the civilian.

Right, so you admit you are not trying to see things from the perspective of officers at all. You have no interest in actually understanding why they behave they way they do but would rather see things only from your perspective and ignorantly criticize. If you really wanted to address the problem you would try to get to the bottom of it rather than being happy to continue playing the victim.

Officers make mistakes just like civilians do. Just because they do does not make them racist/ethnicitist/whatever woke categorization you want to use. Officers deal with life or death situations constantly and I don’t think it’s shocking that they sometimes make the wrong call. Believe it or not, they make mistakes with white subjects all the time, too. And believe it or not, lots of officers are minorities, especially in DC, NYC, etc. Frankly I prefer that they err on the side of keeping themselves and the public safe. When a civilian interacts with an officer they have the burden to comply - that is unquestionably on them. When a subject is being deliberately non compliant they are taking a huge unnecessary risk to themselves and the officers. And guess what - each one of us walks in one of these “victims’” shoes every single day so it is easy to emphathize there. Any day any one of us could be approached by an officer, and the vast majority of us would COMPLY regardless of race.

How could he comply? They told him to keep his hands visible outside the car and also unbuckle at the same time. That is impossible. If he attempted to unbuckle, it was highly likely they would shoot him because they can’t see his hands anymore and they would claim he was reaching for a gun.

The officer was fired. Clearly it means he was in the wrong. It amazes me to read all the PPs defending his actions.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Officer Gutierrez is FIRED!!!

The local PD obviously recognizes the officers were in the wrong. They have said they did not follow departmental policy. If only conservatives could finally admit when wrong is wrong.

Nobody knew the dept policy, so it was impossible to know whether the officers were acting within policy. Some day we all hope to be as smart as you.

"Officer Gutierrez was terminated from his job."

Which one was Gutierrez? Was he the young one who deployed OC spray on the man who was buckled in his truck with his hands out the window? He should be charged with assault. The other one needs to go as well for forcing the motorist to the ground, also an assault. This story lit up the local Richmond TV news as well as national news on Sunday night. All reporters say they could get no one from Windsor Police or government to comment. I realize exactly where this stop took place. It is well lit and has some of the cheapest gas in the state. It's across from the Dairy Queen which one of the officers must frequent. There is always a Windsor police car there when I pass. Both businesses seem to be open late into the night and the Dairy Queen is a de facto truck stop. Always full of trucks and activity. I wonder if witnesses will step forward.

Yes, Gutierrez is the younger one.

Gutierrez is the older, military veteran and threatened to tase him. Crocker was the young one.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Officer Gutierrez is FIRED!!!

The local PD obviously recognizes the officers were in the wrong. They have said they did not follow departmental policy. If only conservatives could finally admit when wrong is wrong.

Nobody knew the dept policy, so it was impossible to know whether the officers were acting within policy. Some day we all hope to be as smart as you.

"Officer Gutierrez was terminated from his job."

Which one was Gutierrez? Was he the young one who deployed OC spray on the man who was buckled in his truck with his hands out the window? He should be charged with assault. The other one needs to go as well for forcing the motorist to the ground, also an assault. This story lit up the local Richmond TV news as well as national news on Sunday night. All reporters say they could get no one from Windsor Police or government to comment. I realize exactly where this stop took place. It is well lit and has some of the cheapest gas in the state. It's across from the Dairy Queen which one of the officers must frequent. There is always a Windsor police car there when I pass. Both businesses seem to be open late into the night and the Dairy Queen is a de facto truck stop. Always full of trucks and activity. I wonder if witnesses will step forward.

Yes, Gutierrez is the younger one.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Officer Gutierrez is FIRED!!!

The local PD obviously recognizes the officers were in the wrong. They have said they did not follow departmental policy. If only conservatives could finally admit when wrong is wrong.

Nobody knew the dept policy, so it was impossible to know whether the officers were acting within policy. Some day we all hope to be as smart as you.

"Officer Gutierrez was terminated from his job."

Which one was Gutierrez? Was he the young one who deployed OC spray on the man who was buckled in his truck with his hands out the window? He should be charged with assault. The other one needs to go as well for forcing the motorist to the ground, also an assault. This story lit up the local Richmond TV news as well as national news on Sunday night. All reporters say they could get no one from Windsor Police or government to comment. I realize exactly where this stop took place. It is well lit and has some of the cheapest gas in the state. It's across from the Dairy Queen which one of the officers must frequent. There is always a Windsor police car there when I pass. Both businesses seem to be open late into the night and the Dairy Queen is a de facto truck stop. Always full of trucks and activity. I wonder if witnesses will step forward.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Officer Gutierrez is FIRED!!!

The local PD obviously recognizes the officers were in the wrong. They have said they did not follow departmental policy. If only conservatives could finally admit when wrong is wrong.

Nobody knew the dept policy, so it was impossible to know whether the officers were acting within policy. Some day we all hope to be as smart as you.

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It sounds like you have some type of obsession with racial issues and are becoming a victim by living vicariously through other people. You might want to educate yourself so that you have a more balanced view of these encounters. Start by looking up UCR data, which is compiled by the FBI. You will see that more white people are killed by police than black people. Black people are disproportionately commiting violent crimes and assaulting police officers, per UCR data.

This is misleading. Yes, roughly twice as many white people are killed by police annually than black people. But that doesn't take into account that white people in the United States outnumber black people by nearly 5:1. Per capita, black people are killed nearly 3 times as often as white people annually in the US.

Additionally, poverty plays a much more significant factor in the determination of crime, especially violent crime than race. And blacks are significantly more likely to be raised in poverty. In the US, roughly 21% of children are raised in poverty, but when you take race into account, 46% of black children are raised in poverty, and 40% of Latino children are raised in poverty. Only 9.6% of white children are raised in poverty.

In addition, the UCR data does not take into account racial bias in the system. For example, white offenders are much less likely to be convicted under virtually identical situations as black offenders. White offenders are much more likely to be offered plea bargains the black offenders. And white offenders are often charged or convicted of lesser chargers under the same circumstances. Due to the voluntary nature of the reporting by local LE, the FBI has admitted that there is room for a lot of manipulation of the UCR data.

Black and Latino middle class and higher are about equally likely to commit violent crimes as their white counterparts. So the chances of a black suspect in a vehicle in a suit or uniform being violent are about the same as their white counterpart, but LEO are like you and because poor blacks in poverty have such a high rate of violent crimes, they'll treat the middle class black person in a suit and a vehicle the same as a black teen from the inner city.

You can make statistics say whatever you want and people like you, PP, make it show your racist bigotry.

^^^

Talk about someone bending statistics to defend their bigoted, anti-police views. You dont even have a basic understanding of statistics, attempting to conflate different issues like poverty. Please try to be less hateful and educate yourself on police procedures and tactics.

Anonymous wrote:Officer Gutierrez is FIRED!!!

The local PD obviously recognizes the officers were in the wrong. They have said they did not follow departmental policy. If only conservatives could finally admit when wrong is wrong.

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Anonymous wrote:It's a little bit upsetting to me that a lot of people's issue with this is that he was a uniformed military officer. I personally don't see how that has much to do with why this is wrong. No one should be treated this way, uniform or not. Think of all the men out there dealing with this who don't have the protection of a uniform! They deserve to be treated with respect too.

Two scenarios. You pull over that car and young male in some sort of gang attire or markings (could be black, latino, or white) in there or you pull over that car and there is an 85 year old grandmother in there. You would approach those stops the same? Most cops would be slightly and only slightly comforted by the uniform. Not the full 85 year old but closer to that than the other. Does not mean you let your guard down or give up position or control but it does impact where you go and how you go.

What is "gang attire"? And you can feel whatever the f you want, all of those people have the same rights, and all of those people are due respectful and professional treatment from police officers until and unless they provide a good reason otherwise. The way someone looks is not justification for treating them like an animal.

Gang Attire

Many gang members wear distinct clothing styles. Clothing is like a street uniform. It helps identify peer and rival gang members. Stylized gang clothing is a non-verbal way of indicating gang membership.

Some common gang attire, such as the three-quarter-length cutoff pants and knee-high socks, has become a popular dress style for many young people throughout the country. Many of these young people are not gang members. When a non-gang member wears gang-type clothing, real gang members can believe that the wearer is involved in a gang and may put the wearer of gang clothing in harm’s way.

Other gangs prefer baggy or “sagging” pants or baseball caps turned at an angle. Some wear particular brands of shoes, pants, shirts or professional sports gear. The gang may pick a college or professional sports team whose logo, uniform color combination or initials have specific meaning to them. Wearing this type of clothing can help conceal their membership and association from parents, teachers and police.

Another example of stylized gang clothing is plaid Pendleton shirts which can be worn loose or un-tucked. The Pendleton shirts become a form of gang uniform. A gang may even choose a certain color. Gang graffiti, symbols, messages or names can also be written or embroidered on tee-shirts, sweat shirts, jackets, pants and baseball caps. Other identifying items include belt buckles with the gang’s initials, key chains, starter jackets (team jackets) and red or blue bandanas called “rags.” The color of the clothing depends on the type of gang. Kaki-colored pants with a white tee-shirt are considered a neutral uniform. Some gangs are no longer wearing their colors in order to deceive law enforcement.

Not all gang members are obvious in their dress or manner, so some are not immediately recognizable by their attire. Anyone can wear gang-style clothing. For that reason, wearing gang-style clothing itself should not be used as the only evidence to support gang membership.

Can people please listen to the cop who posted above?

The town fired one of the cops a while ago for not following policy.

https://www.wric.com/news/virginia-news/officer-terminated-following-traffic-stop-involving-u-s-army-lieutenant/

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Anonymous wrote:This idiot failed repeatedly to follow basic commands. The cops did sctew up at times ny giving conflicting commands.

He was pepper sprayed while calmly sitting in his car, with his hands outside the window, just after asking why he was being detained. That is indefensible.

He had been sitting there arguing with the cops for a good long while by that point.

He had every opportunity to not be an idiot, and at each decision point chose idiot.

If you don't want a tense confrontation with the cops, obey directions, don't argue, don't resist.

Was the smart thing to reach to his waist and unbuckle his seatbelt? I would be scared. At least with his hands out of the car, he made sure he was not a threat.

They never even bothered to tell him why they were pulling him over. If they had, he could say "there's a license plate in my window."

Like someone else said, Philando Castile did that and he's dead.

Yes, since they were telling him to do that. Imagine if he had just announced he was undoing his seat belt, done so, opened the door, and gotten out slowly with his hands in view. It isn't complicated nor difficult.

Arguing with the cops is stupid.

You don't know what they think they are doing. You may be innocent. Maybe the cops have the wrong guy...but if the guy they are looking for just shot some people, they are going to be ready for the worst.

So lose the attitude. Don't play lawyer and tell the cops what they are allowed to direct you to do. (Especially when you are wrong. ) Don't argue. Don't resist them.

Just do as directed, slowly, and keep your hands in view.

Like someone else said, Philando Castile did that and he's dead.

So it's a good idea to disobey lawful police orders because the cop in the Philando Castile case screwed up? I love reading these LE threads which contain dozens of idiotic comments from DCUM morons with absolutely no LE training or experience.

A big part of the problem is that the big cop just doesn't get it. The other problem is that most cops are afraid to fight people because they have become dependent on using tazers for the last 15 years.

The point is that it doesn't matter. You can do everything right, and a trigger happy bully can still murder you and call it your fault.

There was no freaking reason to fight here. The man had his hands out the window and was asking questions. Open your mouth and talk to him like a freaking human being.

For too long cops have been on the wrong side of history when it came to treatment of Black people and respect for their rights. Now, in this supposed post racial era where Black people are supposedly equal, we're all just supposed to forget how things were as recently as our parents lifetimes.

Black people don't trust police and they are rightfully terrified. We've done absolutely NOTHING to address the sins of the past, NOTHING to reform police forces that a mere generation ago were hosing down black children with fire hoses and attacking them with dogs. And yall want to act like everything would be okay if we just properly submit to your authority??? Come on. Get real!! Nothing will change until police acknowledge THEIR responsibility in all of this. You have an entire race of people that do not trust you and for damn good reasons.

Yes, you’re right. You can do everything right and still get shot. But that is extremely, extremely rare. Just look at the statistics at how many interactions police have with people per day and how many people were unjustifiably shot. It is minuscule. Your best bet by far is to comply. I’m not sure if you saw the video this guy took from his cell phone but he was clearly setting up the officers and tempting them to do something wrong. I assume he was looking for a pay day.

The fact is, when a subject becomes non compliant it is a huge red flag for police and gets them raised up. They are human beings and a lot of the reaction you are seeing from them is fear about what that guy was up to. Maybe they were wrong and I agree their instructions were unclear, but it is a natural human response to want to control the situation rather than some racial victimizing thing. Try walking a day in their shoes and you will understand why these situations (late at night, tinted out SUV with who knows what in the back, bizarrely non-compliant subject, etc). It’s not to say their actions were perfect but it is a complete stretch to say they were driven by race. Also I believe the cop who deployed the spray was Hispanic.

Excuses, justifications, and deflections. Also, Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race. For example, I am Puerto Rican. I am also Black. I have a friend who is Cuban. She is white. Hispanic countries and people are not immune from white supremacy.

You're so quick to empathize with the officers. "Walk a day in their shoes." Why not also empathize with their victims for a change? Walk a day in their shoes. The officer is the professional. The burden on getting things right, even when they are afraid, should be on them. Not on the civilian.

Right, so you admit you are not trying to see things from the perspective of officers at all. You have no interest in actually understanding why they behave they way they do but would rather see things only from your perspective and ignorantly criticize. If you really wanted to address the problem you would try to get to the bottom of it rather than being happy to continue playing the victim.

Officers make mistakes just like civilians do. Just because they do does not make them racist/ethnicitist/whatever woke categorization you want to use. Officers deal with life or death situations constantly and I don’t think it’s shocking that they sometimes make the wrong call. Believe it or not, they make mistakes with white subjects all the time, too. And believe it or not, lots of officers are minorities, especially in DC, NYC, etc. Frankly I prefer that they err on the side of keeping themselves and the public safe. When a civilian interacts with an officer they have the burden to comply - that is unquestionably on them. When a subject is being deliberately non compliant they are taking a huge unnecessary risk to themselves and the officers. And guess what - each one of us walks in one of these “victims’” shoes every single day so it is easy to emphathize there. Any day any one of us could be approached by an officer, and the vast majority of us would COMPLY regardless of race.

The officer called him son. That’s racist. Stop saying it’s not about race.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone from that area, this is sadly not surprising.

It's best not to argue with the police, but if they are out to get you, it's going to be a hard situation.

If Black people never assert our rights or questioned people in positions of authority, we'd still be sitting in the back of the bus. If a police office pulls you over, they're supposed to have cause. You're supposed to be able to ask what that cause is, and police officers need to get over themselves and answer the question.

WHat are you, a modern day Rosa Parks posting on DCUM???

You can ask those questions after the scene is safe.

Are you saying "you are under arrest for bla bla bla and you have the right to remain silent ....." is only on TV crime dramas where the officer announces why he/she is arresting someone. In real life officers are legally pull someone over and not give reasons why they pulled someone over even after repeatedly being asked? Is that action by the cops part of their SOP and according to the law?

The purported reason for the felony stop was the absence of a license plate. Having seen the temporary tags, they had no reason to force the man out of the car. This is classic "driving while black". Black man in a black SUV, let's pull him over and see what he's up to.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone from that area, this is sadly not surprising.

It's best not to argue with the police, but if they are out to get you, it's going to be a hard situation.

If Black people never assert our rights or questioned people in positions of authority, we'd still be sitting in the back of the bus. If a police office pulls you over, they're supposed to have cause. You're supposed to be able to ask what that cause is, and police officers need to get over themselves and answer the question.

WHat are you, a modern day Rosa Parks posting on DCUM???

You can ask those questions after the scene is safe.

Are you saying "you are under arrest for bla bla bla and you have the right to remain silent ....." is only on TV crime dramas where the officer announces why he/she is arresting someone. In real life officers are legally pull someone over and not give reasons why they pulled someone over even after repeatedly being asked? Is that action by the cops part of their SOP and according to the law?