Anonymous wrote:Agree that a lot of it has to do with overcrowded schools.

It used to be that the principal knew you, knew your kid, maybe knew the family.

Our Elementary school has 800 kids. It’s crazy. And tons of teacher turnover.

It’s definitely lacking a solid sense of community. This happens for many reasons. We are a Focus school and about 1/3 of the parents speak a different language. We get some special programs bussed in, and those families rarely attend school events.

So many reasons.

What's the capacity of the building? A school with 800 kids, in a building built for 800 kids, is not overcrowded. It's just large. Whereas a school with 400 kids, in a building built for 300, is overcrowded and small.

Agree that a lot of it has to do with overcrowded schools.

It used to be that the principal knew you, knew your kid, maybe knew the family.

Our Elementary school has 800 kids. It’s crazy. And tons of teacher turnover.

It’s definitely lacking a solid sense of community. This happens for many reasons. We are a Focus school and about 1/3 of the parents speak a different language. We get some special programs bussed in, and those families rarely attend school events.

So many reasons.

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask what you think is different? Are there more kids with these behavioral issues? Or were they in different classrooms instead of being mainstreamed before?

You know, there are more kids in general, that could be part of it. 30 years ago there were a lot more 400 student schools and a lot fewer 750 student schools (elementary). Perhaps that has made it harder for administrators to deal with disruptive kids - there are more of them per principal?

I know of multiple kids in our school with one-to-one aides, but they are kids with severe developmental delays, not kids with ED, which I know is harder to diagnose/make the case for that kind of support. My friend who is in an administrative position in elementary was telling me about how they handle it if a kid walks out of school property. I had never really thought about how something like that should be handled. Though I did know a young adult who had a history as an elementary schooler of leaving school and walking home in the middle of the day. And a parent who didn’t march him right back.

Anonymous wrote:Lots of things:
Parents don't want their kids labeled on their records;
Parents in denial (one told us we just had to be nicer to their child);
Incredibly hard to get enough data to prove ED (while teaching 25 others) so the child can get the help and support they need;
Its expensive to have extra help/support for these students, and schools don't like this to happen a lot;
Inexperienced teachers and Principals who don't know how to use the system to get help.

Add special ed teams who don’t want to do the documentation/paperwork needed for a more appropriate placement so the process is delayed year after year. Sorry your caseload is “already full”—the rest of us have things constantly added to our plate as well.

"No discipline. No parenting. This wasn’t a thing when we were young. For better or for worse, kids knew they’d get it from their parents if they misbehaved, so they didn’t."

Of course it was a thing when we were young. You are only looking at your upbringing and the small group that your family, who pushed discipline, choose to hang out with/live near.

My first day of MS, when I showed up at the bus stop, I learned the difference between the group of us who grew up on top of the hill and those who grew up in the winterized summer cottages/trailers at the bottom of the hill.

For starters, the parents of those from the bottom of the hill worked 2nd or 3rd shift so they might not see each other Monday-Friday.

Lots of things:
Parents don't want their kids labeled on their records;
Parents in denial (one told us we just had to be nicer to their child);
Incredibly hard to get enough data to prove ED (while teaching 25 others) so the child can get the help and support they need;
Its expensive to have extra help/support for these students, and schools don't like this to happen a lot;
Inexperienced teachers and Principals who don't know how to use the system to get help.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask what you think is different? Are there more kids with these behavioral issues? Or were they in different classrooms instead of being mainstreamed before?

No discipline. No parenting. This wasn’t a thing when we were young. For better or for worse, kids knew they’d get it from their parents if they misbehaved, so they didn’t.

There also was corporal punishment. The jr. high math teacher would take the disruptive boy into the hallway, slam him against the lockers, and tell him to get his act together. Lest you feel sorry for the boy, he did get his act together and retired in his 30s after a nice (albeit brief) VC career. He was fine and the rest of us, boy included, got to learn.

The good old days, when teachers were allowed to beat students...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is based on the assumption that educational opportunities are a zero-sum game. I.e., if it helps you, it hurts me. It doesn't have to be that way.

Part of the problem is that MCPS has made it a very zero sum game and has a track record of ignoring any need or issue coming from non-poverty areas. MCPS is famous for saying things that it recognizes that it is not serving the high achieving students but it doesn't matter because there are too many low performing students to care about the rest. MCPS looks for short cuts so doing things like placing magnets in bad schools to change the optics of the school performance, dumbing down the curriculum, removing exams, reducing math acceleration, and not allowing PTAs to find aides in schools with high ratios is more about trying to throttle higher achieving students to make up the gap than helping low achieving students perform better.

It's tough to put a robotics lab into a school where only 50% of 9th graders are passing federal standards in reading and math.

We know this, because Wheaton is our sister school, so whatever we donate to our HS's fund, 10% of it goes to Wheaton. We've even had theft issues at Wheaton for things the fund and PTAs jointly put in to the HS (i.e. stolen computers).

It's really a sad state of affairs. Academic basics aren't mastered, people whine for state-of-the-art everything, then they steal and physically wreak what is given.

t

I actually have a student at Wheaton. They have a robotics lab and the robotics team kicks ass. The school is three years old and still looks very new. My child has never witnessed any destruction of school property and has only heard about one kid taking a chrome book home.

I thought our rich "sister" school only donated money for the after prom.

Were you around in hs 5 years ago? Pre-Wheaton program within Wheaton? It wasn’t pretty.
Check out who funded the robotics lab 2-5 years ago. And what kids got major ssl hours going over there.

Ive had a child at Wheaton for 4 years. The very tiny magnet program started 7 years ago. Yes, the old building wasn't pretty, but it has always had a very fostering community with involved teachers and administration. I'm not aware of how the robotics program was funded.

Maybe your angry about having to share some money with Wheaton (again I've only heard about donations to the after prom, which all high schools are required to do. I personally think the extreme costs of after prom is money that could be spent on better things to benefit the whole school), but your perception of the school is misguided.

When my DC in a W middle school, a SN student often follow and assult a short girl in PE class. When the incidents were reported to teachers, the anwser was always you need to be patient with the SN kid. My DC liked to help the kind and gentle SN kids but was really scared of the violent ones. I guess she learned how to deal with different people in MS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP

We're at a Focus school and crap like this happens every year. In every classroom. Truly. I volunteer on and off, and my kids are older so we hear about it in details.

Even good teachers are in such a tough position because the kids learn early that they can get away with pretty terrible behavior. Our Focus school follows the PBIS system. So, they really don't want to implement any 'punitive' type measures. And, they want to keep the kids in the classroom. No suspensions. Really, no punishment, except that maybe the kid doesn't get a sticker at the end of the day.

This year in 1st grade, we already had a kid who hit the teacher. Lots of kids who sprawl out on the floor and kick around, not paying attention. We've had so many issues on the playground, during recess - kids pushing other kids off, kids getting in fights. Admin can't or doesn't do much. It's a pretty terrible learning environment, IMO.

Why do these things seem to happen more at lower SES schools? Is it actually true that it happens more? Is it that the kids are perceived as “bad” rather than SN and it actually happens with similar frequency? Is it just some schools have bad administration? Is it that wealthier parents are more successfully advocating for supports for their SN kids so that major classroom disruptions are less frequent? Are kids with similar capacities just dealing with more trauma/stressors in low income communities leading to more acting out? I really have no idea but I don’t think it’s because of PBIS. We are a PBIS “W” elementary school and I have only heard of one classroom having to evacuate for an out of control child in the 5 years we’ve been at the school. That was a year the first grade class barely missed an additional classroom and by the end of the year there were 29 first graders in each class. It was a bad year, but unusual. My daughter got a paper cut in her eye from a SN kid waving papers around, but I felt confident it was not intentional - totally an accident - and I think the school handled it appropriately. I don’t think there was a serious consequence for the paper-waver, but I also don’t think it would have been appropriate to impose one.

I think ideally a school with more consistently disruptive students would have extra floating adults whose job it is to come in and deal with the disruptive child so that the classroom teacher can continue teaching the rest of the class.

It's not limited to schools located in lower SES areas. A consistently disruptive kid can come from any SES. It's rather that for even one consistently disruptive child, you are asking way too much for the average teacher to both deal with that child AND teach the rest of the kids with the same time and attention the teacher would devote without that kid. Just not happening. And if you have a class full of even somewhat disruptive kids, you need many instructors. In either case, thinking that the county is going to willingly provide another trained adult just because of the disruption is not realistic, at least in our experience.

Anonymous wrote:

DP

We're at a Focus school and crap like this happens every year. In every classroom. Truly. I volunteer on and off, and my kids are older so we hear about it in details.

Even good teachers are in such a tough position because the kids learn early that they can get away with pretty terrible behavior. Our Focus school follows the PBIS system. So, they really don't want to implement any 'punitive' type measures. And, they want to keep the kids in the classroom. No suspensions. Really, no punishment, except that maybe the kid doesn't get a sticker at the end of the day.

This year in 1st grade, we already had a kid who hit the teacher. Lots of kids who sprawl out on the floor and kick around, not paying attention. We've had so many issues on the playground, during recess - kids pushing other kids off, kids getting in fights. Admin can't or doesn't do much. It's a pretty terrible learning environment, IMO.

Why do these things seem to happen more at lower SES schools? Is it actually true that it happens more? Is it that the kids are perceived as “bad” rather than SN and it actually happens with similar frequency? Is it just some schools have bad administration? Is it that wealthier parents are more successfully advocating for supports for their SN kids so that major classroom disruptions are less frequent? Are kids with similar capacities just dealing with more trauma/stressors in low income communities leading to more acting out? I really have no idea but I don’t think it’s because of PBIS. We are a PBIS “W” elementary school and I have only heard of one classroom having to evacuate for an out of control child in the 5 years we’ve been at the school. That was a year the first grade class barely missed an additional classroom and by the end of the year there were 29 first graders in each class. It was a bad year, but unusual. My daughter got a paper cut in her eye from a SN kid waving papers around, but I felt confident it was not intentional - totally an accident - and I think the school handled it appropriately. I don’t think there was a serious consequence for the paper-waver, but I also don’t think it would have been appropriate to impose one.

I think ideally a school with more consistently disruptive students would have extra floating adults whose job it is to come in and deal with the disruptive child so that the classroom teacher can continue teaching the rest of the class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask what you think is different? Are there more kids with these behavioral issues? Or were they in different classrooms instead of being mainstreamed before?

No discipline. No parenting. This wasn’t a thing when we were young. For better or for worse, kids knew they’d get it from their parents if they misbehaved, so they didn’t.

There also was corporal punishment. The jr. high math teacher would take the disruptive boy into the hallway, slam him against the lockers, and tell him to get his act together. Lest you feel sorry for the boy, he did get his act together and retired in his 30s after a nice (albeit brief) VC career. He was fine and the rest of us, boy included, got to learn.

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask what you think is different? Are there more kids with these behavioral issues? Or were they in different classrooms instead of being mainstreamed before?

No discipline. No parenting. This wasn’t a thing when we were young. For better or for worse, kids knew they’d get it from their parents if they misbehaved, so they didn’t.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure I'll get majorly flamed for this, but the kids with severe behavior problems are the primary issue in the high FARMS school where I teach. I understand the least restrictive environment, but the rights of one student to learn shouldn't trump the rights of the other 20 something students in the classroom. Not to mention the abuse the staff have to endure on a daily basis. We're only told to "try more strategies" by admin and the "experts", and the parents tell us it's our problem to deal with during school hours.

These kids pretty much rob the other kids of their opportunities to learn. I don't blame them for being unable to tune out a kid laying on his back and kicking a metal desk during the whole group lesson, or be able to concentrate in class near a student who threatened to beat you up yesterday.

I'm sorry you have to deal with that, as do the other students who are trying to learn. That really sucks. I really think those kids should be given a chance, but there should be a limit. At some point, like 16 or something, they should be put in alternative school after being given many chances. I don't think society should give up on them, but I agree, the others shouldn't have to deal with it for the whole school year.

I’m the PP you responded to. I teach elementary school and situations like I wrote above happen almost daily. If not daily, then a few times per week. Some kids have to be in the same classroom with these kids for more than a year because there are only so many combinations and permutations. It absolutely impacts their learning. If my kid was put in a class with a kid like this, I would demand that either my child be moved or the other kid be moved. When the rest of the kids have to leave the classroom and go into another one so they aren’t in danger when the kid starts having an episode where they are tearing up the classroom and throwing things, that’s when the line is drawn. I’m always expecting the phone calls and emails to pour in after such an episode but they don’t. I wish they did so admin and MCPS would be pressured to actually do something about it rather than just leave it up to the classroom teacher to handle.

As a parent, that would upset me. If it happens a couple of times per year, I would let it go, but everyday? That is not fair to the rest of the kids. Are the other parents not aware or are they just afraid to be *that* parent that singles out a disruptive child who may/may not have SN?

I don't think it serves anyone, least of all that child, for admin to ignore the issues. How is not addressing that child's issue going to help that child learn and be a productive member of society?

Terrible strategy. I feel badly for you PP, but thankful that we do have dedicated teachers out there who have to deal with this crap day in and day out, and probably have to deal with crazy parents to boot.

DP

We're at a Focus school and crap like this happens every year. In every classroom. Truly. I volunteer on and off, and my kids are older so we hear about it in details.

Even good teachers are in such a tough position because the kids learn early that they can get away with pretty terrible behavior. Our Focus school follows the PBIS system. So, they really don't want to implement any 'punitive' type measures. And, they want to keep the kids in the classroom. No suspensions. Really, no punishment, except that maybe the kid doesn't get a sticker at the end of the day.

This year in 1st grade, we already had a kid who hit the teacher. Lots of kids who sprawl out on the floor and kick around, not paying attention. We've had so many issues on the playground, during recess - kids pushing other kids off, kids getting in fights. Admin can't or doesn't do much. It's a pretty terrible learning environment, IMO.

If MCPS mixes kids from your school with kids from an ES in W school, the incidece per class will be reduced so more kids will get a better chance to learn. MCPS could adopt more split ES models as NCC ES and CCES, or TPES and PBES.

Sorry - You don't get it. If you introduce a bunch of disruptive kids into a normal classroom, it "might" be more beneficial to the disruptive kids, but it will be hell for the others. "...so more kids will get a better chance to learn" is fantasy in that situation. Our DC has had classes, in a W-like school cluster ES, where all you need is a single disruptive child to significantly and negatively impact the rest. If that child takes up even just 10% of the teacher's time and energy, the rest of kids suffer. You would need to add multiple instructors to each classroom deal with the disruptions, and allow the other kids to learn. Where is that money coming from? Classes are already too large. The time a teacher has to devote to one-on-one interactions with a particular student is already measured in single minutes.

There's no question in my mind that our DC's elementary school is filled with kids who are performing well - high achievers would be an accurate label - yet would do even better if the same amount of resources were devoted to them than are devoted to a Title 1 or Focus school. And that's the shame of the situation. People wonder why parents turn to tutors and other forms of enrichment, and the answer is very straightforward in many cases. They see their kids with the interest, capability and drive to learn more and challenge themselves, and the school system isn't offering that. These aren't geniuses or even "gifted" children, but bright kids who love to learn and would do well if better challenged and offered more individualized instruction.

I understand, accept and in fact support that the school system needs to address the achievement gap, and that doing so requires additional resources - from the county, the federal government, elsewhere - to be directed towards the schools and students that need them. But that has come at a cost to the huge middle of the system, and to pretend that it hasn't - or that facile solutions as busing or mixing kids of differing abilities and self-control will magically solve the problem without considering what else is required (namely, resources, money and commitment that will not miraculously appear) to make them successful - is disingenuous.