Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tend to agree with much of this. The millennials I know almost all live with their parents because (supposedly) they're saving up money, but they lack for nothing (new iPhones, clothes, cars) and take ski trips to Aspen. I have a hard time imagining that their bank accounts are flush.

One is actively looking for an apartment -- with his mom, of course -- and has turned down every option for some reason: too small, too dark, the kitchen isn't updated, too loud, too close to public housing, too far from mommie and daddy. He wants to get a roommate, but he refuses to share a bathroom and his mother agrees that sharing a bathroom with "a stranger" is unacceptable for her snowflake.

Can't exactly weep for them.

It's not just millennials. I know a lot of people who live like this. I have numerous friends who have student loans or I'm certain aren't saving any money but manage to go on expensive vacations, have iPhones, take uber everywhere, dine out and order takeout frequently. They don't seem to bat an eye at living like this.

I'm Gen X. Graduated top 5 law school with $160k in loans. Did BigLaw briefly, hated it, have worked in more nontraditional and low paying jobs ever since.

I was 27 when I graduated. I lived in a terrible, affordable apartment. Paid off as much as I could of my loans. Now, in my 40s, I only get to live somewhere nice because my husband has a more traditional sort of job.

Even when I was $160k in debt, I ate out, I traveled, I did other things you'd probably turn your nose at, as beneath someone in debt. The reason is because life is for living - not just for saving and paying off loans. The loans suck, and aren't going anywhere whether I get Thai food for dinner tonight or not. You are basically suggesting that people whose parents weren't rich enough to pay for their tuitions or to keep them in well-appointed homes during their 20s and 30s shouldn't get to enjoy their youths in any way. Well, I'm glad I enjoyed my youth. I'm glad I got to do things, and experience things, even though I was also trying to make my own way in the world.

Old Gen Xer here. I have to say I really cannot fathom 160K in debt out of school. Graduated in 88 with maybe 10K in debt - I was very fortunate with scholarships and parents that paid most of my tuition. I can see the reaction of just throwing up your hands and saying to hell with it, I'm going to live my life and not worry about the mountain of debt. It's a very natural reaction. Having a good set of mentors, whether parents or others, to structure a way to address it is critical. Otherwise you give in to that feeling of helplessness and the problem only compounds. There was an article recently that people are starting to have their Social Security garnished for old student loan payments - that means that through a working lifetime, student loans were never paid off. That is crazy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tend to agree with much of this. The millennials I know almost all live with their parents because (supposedly) they're saving up money, but they lack for nothing (new iPhones, clothes, cars) and take ski trips to Aspen. I have a hard time imagining that their bank accounts are flush.

One is actively looking for an apartment -- with his mom, of course -- and has turned down every option for some reason: too small, too dark, the kitchen isn't updated, too loud, too close to public housing, too far from mommie and daddy. He wants to get a roommate, but he refuses to share a bathroom and his mother agrees that sharing a bathroom with "a stranger" is unacceptable for her snowflake.

Can't exactly weep for them.

It's not just millennials. I know a lot of people who live like this. I have numerous friends who have student loans or I'm certain aren't saving any money but manage to go on expensive vacations, have iPhones, take uber everywhere, dine out and order takeout frequently. They don't seem to bat an eye at living like this.

I'm Gen X. Graduated top 5 law school with $160k in loans. Did BigLaw briefly, hated it, have worked in more nontraditional and low paying jobs ever since.

I was 27 when I graduated. I lived in a terrible, affordable apartment. Paid off as much as I could of my loans. Now, in my 40s, I only get to live somewhere nice because my husband has a more traditional sort of job.

Even when I was $160k in debt, I ate out, I traveled, I did other things you'd probably turn your nose at, as beneath someone in debt. The reason is because life is for living - not just for saving and paying off loans. The loans suck, and aren't going anywhere whether I get Thai food for dinner tonight or not. You are basically suggesting that people whose parents weren't rich enough to pay for their tuitions or to keep them in well-appointed homes during their 20s and 30s shouldn't get to enjoy their youths in any way. Well, I'm glad I enjoyed my youth. I'm glad I got to do things, and experience things, even though I was also trying to make my own way in the world.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:European here. A lot of Americans don't appreciate the finer things in life, even though they can afford so much more. A Frenchman is fine renting, a small space too, because they want to be able to buy a niece piece of cheese and wine and fresh fish and a beautiful jacket. So if the millennials are doing what you say they are doing, kudos to them.

You really cannot compare Europe to the US. You have cradle to grave social benefits - we do not. What happens when these folks who have screwed off their entire life arrive at retirement with no money? They become a burden on their children or the state.

Those benefits are paid for by significant taxation and coupled with much lower salaries. I think net net it evens out over a life time. In any case, I think it's a philosophical difference. As I mentioned, given X amount of disposable income, a Frenchman will chose to rent vs. owning, in order to afford small luxuries/quality. Many Americans overemphasize housing or cars to the detriment of many many other things that make life pleasurable. I am most surprised by the very well educated and well off couples who seem to squirrel away millions while leading Spartan lives. Many post here. So no I don't judge a millennial, who is saddled with debt and facing crazy housing costs for not buying in to the current scheme.

Well, kinda. For the average worker, yes. But tell me about the last Microsoft, Apple, Google, Uber, life changing Pharma, Telsa, etc that came out of France? You are paying with a lack of dynamism in the economy. That is unique to the US. You cannot wish for only one component of European model - you will get them all. The US is the innovation engine for the world, France - not so much.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:European here. A lot of Americans don't appreciate the finer things in life, even though they can afford so much more. A Frenchman is fine renting, a small space too, because they want to be able to buy a niece piece of cheese and wine and fresh fish and a beautiful jacket. So if the millennials are doing what you say they are doing, kudos to them.

You really cannot compare Europe to the US. You have cradle to grave social benefits - we do not. What happens when these folks who have screwed off their entire life arrive at retirement with no money? They become a burden on their children or the state.

Those benefits are paid for by significant taxation and coupled with much lower salaries. I think net net it evens out over a life time. In any case, I think it's a philosophical difference. As I mentioned, given X amount of disposable income, a Frenchman will chose to rent vs. owning, in order to afford small luxuries/quality. Many Americans overemphasize housing or cars to the detriment of many many other things that make life pleasurable. I am most surprised by the very well educated and well off couples who seem to squirrel away millions while leading Spartan lives. Many post here. So no I don't judge a millennial, who is saddled with debt and facing crazy housing costs for not buying in to the current scheme.

Another European here.

Do you really know many young European folks paying $40 for a stupid candle?

I don't think so.

Not even for wine or cheese or whatever little "luxury."

The difference is that over there most people you can get perfectly good wine or cheese or candles for $10, and the rest is American-style marketing BS

I think one of the most amazing (egregious?) examples is washing machines. These used to be commodities that cost $500 or so. You can still get one of those, but everyone seems to need the high tech, shiny models that have 25 options and cost $1200. When all most people do is dump their clothes in and push 'Regular'.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:European here. A lot of Americans don't appreciate the finer things in life, even though they can afford so much more. A Frenchman is fine renting, a small space too, because they want to be able to buy a niece piece of cheese and wine and fresh fish and a beautiful jacket. So if the millennials are doing what you say they are doing, kudos to them.

You really cannot compare Europe to the US. You have cradle to grave social benefits - we do not. What happens when these folks who have screwed off their entire life arrive at retirement with no money? They become a burden on their children or the state.

Those benefits are paid for by significant taxation and coupled with much lower salaries. I think net net it evens out over a life time. In any case, I think it's a philosophical difference. As I mentioned, given X amount of disposable income, a Frenchman will chose to rent vs. owning, in order to afford small luxuries/quality. Many Americans overemphasize housing or cars to the detriment of many many other things that make life pleasurable. I am most surprised by the very well educated and well off couples who seem to squirrel away millions while leading Spartan lives. Many post here. So no I don't judge a millennial, who is saddled with debt and facing crazy housing costs for not buying in to the current scheme.

The percentage of homeownership in France is lower than in the US not merely because French people prefer to afford small luxuries, but rather because it is much more difficult to obtain a mortgage and much more difficult to accumulate a downpayment, given the higher tax rates and lower salaries, and because home prices have remained high (particularly in Paris where most buyers are foreign). French people by and large prefer quality over quantity, and do not have a culture of overspending -- credit cards as they exist in the US are not available in France (debit cards only).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Remember when you took out that HELOC? When you didn't actually save for your kids' education but instead thought of your house as an ATM?
As crazy as you may think it, the Millenials did NOT cause the housing crash. They did not dissolve your retirement funds. They were too young to buy when all that went down.
You may be bitter and have a few more years of wear, but you mid-forty somethings and up are not the geniuses you think you are.

It took a million pages, but finally someone points this out.

Older Gen Xers and crusty ass Boomers are very judgmental and smug for a group that literally caused one of the greatest financial recessions in our lifetime from being greedy, materialistic and living completely beyond their means.

-Younger Gen Xer

We oldsters are not responsible for the ludicrous lending to unqualified borrowers. That was PC-homes for all. Don't slam the group that believed in 10-20+% down and fixed rate 30 year mortgages. No funk.

Actually you are. Those bankers and brokers dividing up those bonds and creating the greatest recession and housing slump were not our current 1980+ born generation. That was all you.
Those younger kids were just beginning to enter and graduate college when you fucked up the entire economy.

Millennial here - settled with a mortgage in Cottage City. I've had my fair share of overpriced Union Market coffees and flings with high maintenance silly (gorgeous) city slickers who workout at overpriced spin gyms or yoga studios. Tired of feeling like I was focused on the wrong things. Invest in yourself by taking pride in all that you do. Super excited about the future, although I sold all my stocks and decided to let college friends room cheap to continue saving...

CASH IS KING, thank you mom and dad for letting me live at home while I learned a thing or two!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:European here. A lot of Americans don't appreciate the finer things in life, even though they can afford so much more. A Frenchman is fine renting, a small space too, because they want to be able to buy a niece piece of cheese and wine and fresh fish and a beautiful jacket. So if the millennials are doing what you say they are doing, kudos to them.

You really cannot compare Europe to the US. You have cradle to grave social benefits - we do not. What happens when these folks who have screwed off their entire life arrive at retirement with no money? They become a burden on their children or the state.

Those benefits are paid for by significant taxation and coupled with much lower salaries. I think net net it evens out over a life time. In any case, I think it's a philosophical difference. As I mentioned, given X amount of disposable income, a Frenchman will chose to rent vs. owning, in order to afford small luxuries/quality. Many Americans overemphasize housing or cars to the detriment of many many other things that make life pleasurable. I am most surprised by the very well educated and well off couples who seem to squirrel away millions while leading Spartan lives. Many post here. So no I don't judge a millennial, who is saddled with debt and facing crazy housing costs for not buying in to the current scheme.

Another European here.

Do you really know many young European folks paying $40 for a stupid candle?

I don't think so.

Not even for wine or cheese or whatever little "luxury."

The difference is that over there most people you can get perfectly good wine or cheese or candles for $10, and the rest is American-style marketing BS

I'd say a bigger part of the difference is that there are much more limits on corporations there and as a result, a much stronger artisan culture. Speaking about France, in particular, there's a much stronger present tradition of small businesses than there is in much of the US, especially in rural areas, where your choices are WalMart and WalMart. The tide is turning in the US, especially as the word gets out of how many toxins are in our profit-at-all-costs food chain, but as the PP noted, we're much more willing to spend our money on gaudy than on quality. I remember when reading FKEE how the author quoted a lady noting that there, they were more likely to want to choose between 10 ice cream flavors, compared to here, where most Americans would prefer to have a store with 50 options. The lady in France basically stated that the quality couldn't possibly be as good if there were that many options.

Until we have more protections for small businesses and a lot more demand for quality over quantity here, it'll continue to cost a lot more to offer alternatives to the mainstream. A quick example involves milk. To avoid the hormone-ridden "milk" from poor cows that are chained to overcrowded stalls and literally fed sawdust, candy, and chicken poop (yes!), we recently switched to Oberweis milk. The cows are humanely raised and humanely fed, and it's worth it to us to have them treated well and fed well. However, that means we now spend about $11.58 a gallon instead of the $2-3/gallon milk we used to buy. We do get $3 back with returning the bottles, but it's still much more expensive. It's also the only option for milk we can trust.

In France, in comparison, it would be much easier to buy milk directly from farmers or even in the stores with much tighter restrictions on how they're fed and treated. The more you learn about what we're putting into our bodies if we eat things from the regular food supply here, the less it'll surprise you why folks are willing to try other things, even if they aren't as affordable as they would be overseas.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:European here. A lot of Americans don't appreciate the finer things in life, even though they can afford so much more. A Frenchman is fine renting, a small space too, because they want to be able to buy a niece piece of cheese and wine and fresh fish and a beautiful jacket. So if the millennials are doing what you say they are doing, kudos to them.

You really cannot compare Europe to the US. You have cradle to grave social benefits - we do not. What happens when these folks who have screwed off their entire life arrive at retirement with no money? They become a burden on their children or the state.

Those benefits are paid for by significant taxation and coupled with much lower salaries. I think net net it evens out over a life time. In any case, I think it's a philosophical difference. As I mentioned, given X amount of disposable income, a Frenchman will chose to rent vs. owning, in order to afford small luxuries/quality. Many Americans overemphasize housing or cars to the detriment of many many other things that make life pleasurable. I am most surprised by the very well educated and well off couples who seem to squirrel away millions while leading Spartan lives. Many post here. So no I don't judge a millennial, who is saddled with debt and facing crazy housing costs for not buying in to the current scheme.

+100. Wonderful response.

A Frenchman in Paris and a person in NYC/SF are in a similar position. DC has MD and VA ...commutes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Remember when you took out that HELOC? When you didn't actually save for your kids' education but instead thought of your house as an ATM?
As crazy as you may think it, the Millenials did NOT cause the housing crash. They did not dissolve your retirement funds. They were too young to buy when all that went down.
You may be bitter and have a few more years of wear, but you mid-forty somethings and up are not the geniuses you think you are.

It took a million pages, but finally someone points this out.

Older Gen Xers and crusty ass Boomers are very judgmental and smug for a group that literally caused one of the greatest financial recessions in our lifetime from being greedy, materialistic and living completely beyond their means.

-Younger Gen Xer

We oldsters are not responsible for the ludicrous lending to unqualified borrowers. That was PC-homes for all. Don't slam the group that believed in 10-20+% down and fixed rate 30 year mortgages. No funk.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:European here. A lot of Americans don't appreciate the finer things in life, even though they can afford so much more. A Frenchman is fine renting, a small space too, because they want to be able to buy a niece piece of cheese and wine and fresh fish and a beautiful jacket. So if the millennials are doing what you say they are doing, kudos to them.

You really cannot compare Europe to the US. You have cradle to grave social benefits - we do not. What happens when these folks who have screwed off their entire life arrive at retirement with no money? They become a burden on their children or the state.

Those benefits are paid for by significant taxation and coupled with much lower salaries. I think net net it evens out over a life time. In any case, I think it's a philosophical difference. As I mentioned, given X amount of disposable income, a Frenchman will chose to rent vs. owning, in order to afford small luxuries/quality. Many Americans overemphasize housing or cars to the detriment of many many other things that make life pleasurable. I am most surprised by the very well educated and well off couples who seem to squirrel away millions while leading Spartan lives. Many post here. So no I don't judge a millennial, who is saddled with debt and facing crazy housing costs for not buying in to the current scheme.

Another European here.

Do you really know many young European folks paying $40 for a stupid candle?

I don't think so.

Not even for wine or cheese or whatever little "luxury."

The difference is that over there most people you can get perfectly good wine or cheese or candles for $10, and the rest is American-style marketing BS

Ever heard of le labo?

Oh please. I assume you are not the European poster above, correct?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:European here. A lot of Americans don't appreciate the finer things in life, even though they can afford so much more. A Frenchman is fine renting, a small space too, because they want to be able to buy a niece piece of cheese and wine and fresh fish and a beautiful jacket. So if the millennials are doing what you say they are doing, kudos to them.

You really cannot compare Europe to the US. You have cradle to grave social benefits - we do not. What happens when these folks who have screwed off their entire life arrive at retirement with no money? They become a burden on their children or the state.

Those benefits are paid for by significant taxation and coupled with much lower salaries. I think net net it evens out over a life time. In any case, I think it's a philosophical difference. As I mentioned, given X amount of disposable income, a Frenchman will chose to rent vs. owning, in order to afford small luxuries/quality. Many Americans overemphasize housing or cars to the detriment of many many other things that make life pleasurable. I am most surprised by the very well educated and well off couples who seem to squirrel away millions while leading Spartan lives. Many post here. So no I don't judge a millennial, who is saddled with debt and facing crazy housing costs for not buying in to the current scheme.

Another European here.

Do you really know many young European folks paying $40 for a stupid candle?

I don't think so.

Not even for wine or cheese or whatever little "luxury."

The difference is that over there most people you can get perfectly good wine or cheese or candles for $10, and the rest is American-style marketing BS

Ever heard of le labo?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ivy League class of '01. Bought my starter home in 2010 with my mother as cosigner on the loan and she put up $20K towards the down payment. Just paid her off a few months ago (zero percent interest loan) and we're refinancing to take her off the title/mortgage. Plus she helps out with daycare payments every once in a while when we are short. Still have barely started contributing to the 529 plan yet.

Don't blame milennials.

These are accomplishments? 15 years out from an Ivy degree and still getting help from Mommy? Good lord.

I'm a mom of young adults and that 2001 Ivy grad post is really depressing. Mine are not that old. 6 years to pay back $20,000 no interest loan? Mom on the mortgage? Helping pay for daycare? I'm a generous and a confused person.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:European here. A lot of Americans don't appreciate the finer things in life, even though they can afford so much more. A Frenchman is fine renting, a small space too, because they want to be able to buy a niece piece of cheese and wine and fresh fish and a beautiful jacket. So if the millennials are doing what you say they are doing, kudos to them.

You really cannot compare Europe to the US. You have cradle to grave social benefits - we do not. What happens when these folks who have screwed off their entire life arrive at retirement with no money? They become a burden on their children or the state.

Those benefits are paid for by significant taxation and coupled with much lower salaries. I think net net it evens out over a life time. In any case, I think it's a philosophical difference. As I mentioned, given X amount of disposable income, a Frenchman will chose to rent vs. owning, in order to afford small luxuries/quality. Many Americans overemphasize housing or cars to the detriment of many many other things that make life pleasurable. I am most surprised by the very well educated and well off couples who seem to squirrel away millions while leading Spartan lives. Many post here. So no I don't judge a millennial, who is saddled with debt and facing crazy housing costs for not buying in to the current scheme.

Another European here.

Do you really know many young European folks paying $40 for a stupid candle?

I don't think so.

Not even for wine or cheese or whatever little "luxury."

The difference is that over there most people you can get perfectly good wine or cheese or candles for $10, and the rest is American-style marketing BS

Interesting. I just posted in a separate thread about being a single mom of 1 on 80K. Older millennial. I feel really blessed and generally enjoy life. I opted for a small condo in DC that I could afford on less money and I splurge on experiences. We travel regularly. Flying business to the Caribbean on miles next month. A week in Disney World for Spring Break and the hotel is on points. Heading to Johannesburg/Capetown this summer. I would much rather live in our cute, cozy shoebox than purchase a bigger home that requires more maintenance and a bigger mortgage. I save for retirement and put a little away for college, but not at the cost of living in the moment today. I'm confident that I will not be a financial burden to my child. I will probably take care of my own parents somewhat in retirement and I'm not upset about it. It's about balance.