Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This would only be revolutionary if it hasn't been explored before. But it just so happens that both Persian and Greek physicians, most notably Galen, have described much of the same in much of the same terms. The companions of Muhammad included a doctor who traveled to Yemen and Persia and went to medical school there.

Might it be possible that what Dr Moore is a scientific revelation is actually a regurgitation of what has already been known to medical establishment at that point?

Here is what Galen said about the stages of fetal development (which he erroneously assumes is FOUR, not three):

"But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails. At this time, Hippocrates too, the all marvellous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood, and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts. You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form “twigs”, as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches.

The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; "

So Galen was confused about the stages of fetal development. But the Quran spoke of the correct three stages of fetal development in this verse 39:6:

"He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and he sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: He makes you, in the wombs of your mothers, in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness. such is Allah, your Lord and Cherisher: to Him belongs (all) dominion. There is no god but He: then how are ye turned away (from your true Centre)?"

Keith Moore then concludes: "I was amazed at the scientific accuracy of these statements which were made in the 7th century AD. I have selected verses and sayings for which I shall provide personal interpretations based on my knowledge of embryological history and of the modern science of embryology.The realization that the embryo develops in stages in the uterus (figure 1) was not discussed or illustrated until the 15th century AD., although Galen had mentioned the placenta and fetal membranes in his book On the Formation of the Foetus written in the 2nd century AD and must have known about the uterus.

Thus, Moore credits Galen for some discoveries, but clearly states Galen neither wrote nor discussed/illustrated anything other than the placenta and fetal membranes in his classic work, "Formation of the Foetus."

Anonymous wrote:

But the only reason to discuss Cesarean section would be to prove that people knew about fetal development before the Quran did. There's no mention that Romans, Greeks, Chinese, etc.. knew about the stages of fetal development or anything else about fetal development. It only states c-sections were used to save the child when it was determined the mother was dying.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In his article, Keith Moore writes: "It is reasonable to interpret the three veils of darkness mentioned in the Koran as: (a) the mother’s abdominal wall (figure 3); (b) the wall of the uterus; and (c) the amniochorionic membrane composed of the fused amnion and chorion. These three anatomical layers protect the embryo from external injury."

So he seemed to think the Quran, if not the hadith, was on point at least in knowing the three stages of fetal development.

The fact that the baby was surrounded by three veils of darkness, i.e. three layers, can be easily ascertained by unassisted observation, which has been practiced in Rome and by Cleopatra way before Islam, where C-section was pioneered, and where Cleopatra sometimes cut up pregnant women for fun. Arabs were familiar with Greek physician writing so there was nothing revolutionary in what is written in this verse.

Can you provide evidence of Greek physician writing or C sections in Rome before the 7th century, please?

here you go...
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/part1.html
Cesarean section has been part of human culture since ancient times and there are tales in both Western and non-Western cultures of this procedure resulting in live mothers and offspring. According to Greek mythology Apollo removed Asclepius, founder of the famous cult of religious medicine, from his mother's abdomen. Numerous references to cesarean section appear in ancient Hindu, Egyptian, Grecian, Roman, and other European folklore. Ancient Chinese etchings depict the procedure on apparently living women. The Mischnagoth and Talmud prohibited primogeniture when twins were born by cesarean section and waived the purification rituals for women delivered by surgery.

Anonymous wrote:This would only be revolutionary if it hasn't been explored before. But it just so happens that both Persian and Greek physicians, most notably Galen, have described much of the same in much of the same terms. The companions of Muhammad included a doctor who traveled to Yemen and Persia and went to medical school there.

Might it be possible that what Dr Moore is a scientific revelation is actually a regurgitation of what has already been known to medical establishment at that point?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This would only be revolutionary if it hasn't been explored before. But it just so happens that both Persian and Greek physicians, most notably Galen, have described much of the same in much of the same terms. The companions of Muhammad included a doctor who traveled to Yemen and Persia and went to medical school there.

Might it be possible that what Dr Moore is a scientific revelation is actually a regurgitation of what has already been known to medical establishment at that point?

Can we see Galen's paper then please?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In his article, Keith Moore writes: "It is reasonable to interpret the three veils of darkness mentioned in the Koran as: (a) the mother’s abdominal wall (figure 3); (b) the wall of the uterus; and (c) the amniochorionic membrane composed of the fused amnion and chorion. These three anatomical layers protect the embryo from external injury."

So he seemed to think the Quran, if not the hadith, was on point at least in knowing the three stages of fetal development.

The fact that the baby was surrounded by three veils of darkness, i.e. three layers, can be easily ascertained by unassisted observation, which has been practiced in Rome and by Cleopatra way before Islam, where C-section was pioneered, and where Cleopatra sometimes cut up pregnant women for fun. Arabs were familiar with Greek physician writing so there was nothing revolutionary in what is written in this verse.

Can you provide evidence of Greek physician writing or C sections in Rome before the 7th century, please?

Anonymous wrote:This would only be revolutionary if it hasn't been explored before. But it just so happens that both Persian and Greek physicians, most notably Galen, have described much of the same in much of the same terms. The companions of Muhammad included a doctor who traveled to Yemen and Persia and went to medical school there.

Might it be possible that what Dr Moore is a scientific revelation is actually a regurgitation of what has already been known to medical establishment at that point?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In his article, Keith Moore writes: "It is reasonable to interpret the three veils of darkness mentioned in the Koran as: (a) the mother’s abdominal wall (figure 3); (b) the wall of the uterus; and (c) the amniochorionic membrane composed of the fused amnion and chorion. These three anatomical layers protect the embryo from external injury."

So he seemed to think the Quran, if not the hadith, was on point at least in knowing the three stages of fetal development.

The fact that the baby was surrounded by three veils of darkness, i.e. three layers, can be easily ascertained by unassisted observation, which has been practiced in Rome and by Cleopatra way before Islam, where C-section was pioneered, and where Cleopatra sometimes cut up pregnant women for fun. Arabs were familiar with Greek physician writing so there was nothing revolutionary in what is written in this verse.

Can you provide evidence of Greek physician writing or C sections in Rome before the 7th century, please?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In his article, Keith Moore writes: "It is reasonable to interpret the three veils of darkness mentioned in the Koran as: (a) the mother’s abdominal wall (figure 3); (b) the wall of the uterus; and (c) the amniochorionic membrane composed of the fused amnion and chorion. These three anatomical layers protect the embryo from external injury."

So he seemed to think the Quran, if not the hadith, was on point at least in knowing the three stages of fetal development.

The fact that the baby was surrounded by three veils of darkness, i.e. three layers, can be easily ascertained by unassisted observation, which has been practiced in Rome and by Cleopatra way before Islam, where C-section was pioneered, and where Cleopatra sometimes cut up pregnant women for fun. Arabs were familiar with Greek physician writing so there was nothing revolutionary in what is written in this verse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:2. THE GENDER DETERMINATION HADITH

According to embryology, the crucial event that determines whether the embryo will develop into a male or female occurs in the second half of the sixth week of gestation.

See for example: How Is Sex Determined? www.pbs.org

The Prophet Muhammad MHMD - upon him and his House blessings and peace - disclosed the exact same timeframe fourteen centuries ago.

Imam Muslim narrates from Hudhayfa that the Prophet MHMD said:

The sperm-and-ovum drop falls into the uterus [and remains] for forty nights, after which the angel in charge of fashioning it descends upon it and says, "Lord! Male or female?" Then Allah makes it male or female.

Another version from Hudhayfa in al-Bukhari and Muslim states:

The angel is sent to the sperm-and-ovum drop after it has settled in the uterus for FORTY OR FORTY-FIVE NIGHTS and says, "Lord! Is it to be wretched or happy?" Then this is inscribed. Then he says, "Lord! Is it to be male or female?" Then this is inscribed, together with its deeds, its progeny, its term of life, and its sustenance. Then the records are folded up and nothing more is added nor subtracted.



Having just gone through IVF and PGD, which told me the sex of the fetus after FIVE FREAKING DAYS, I couldn't stop laughing at that one.

Thats hilarious….BUT -- Is it possible that the Angel did not know but that God knew all along, even before the embryo became a 5 day old blastocyst?