Anonymous wrote:

People from France to African Americans are converting and in God's eyes their devotion is equal.

Great. So Islam is exactly the same as every other religion on this count.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have heard of Christian missionary groups but I have never heard of Muslim missionary groups, have you? I worked with refugee Muslim families and they told me about Christian missionary groups on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. They are impoverished Muslim families and the familes tell me that Christian missionary groups sweep in, providing baskets of food and water but also quite a few brochures on "Jesus, our Savior." lol Honestly, Muslims NEVER want people to convert under compulsion or coercion. It has to be through revelation and divine guidance. Muslima was speaking in "flowery" terms not because she was proselytizing, but simply because she clearly is devoted and loves her faith. Nothing wrong with that! It just irritated the hell out of you that she spoke so positively about her faith, thats all.

I think Muslima and I have been informative and answered questions to the best of our ability. I think we've done a fine job. I'm glad that now this thread will permanently remain with links included for people to learn more about true Islam. My intention was never to convert anyone, but simply to remove some of the hatred and vile accusations against a religion that is dear to billions of people.

Please, just stop. Islam is ALL about conversion. You deny the "compulsion" part, and that lack of compulsion is probably true in many areas. But compulsion MOST DEFINITELY EXISTS in Muslim-run areas where non-Muslim dhimmis face economic sanctions for not converting, and where polytheists are subject to slavery for not converting (I'm thinking of Mauritania, for example).

You simply can't, and shouldn't feign, ignorance about Muslim efforts to convert people. For example, a mosque in Virginia leaves flyers on doorsteps (my non-Muslim coworker finds them on her doorstep) about Islam. Some flyers talk about the "truths of Islam" and one flyer even argued that Islam isn't really anti-dog (yes, I understand the various positions about cats vs. dogs, but I think we can all agree we don't want to get into that one.)

The fact that you and Muslima are deliberately painting a distorted picture of Islam is proof enough that you're trying to convert people. (Sorry, but a distorted picture is not "fine job" at all, and clarifying the distortions isn't "vile" unless you think the truth about your religion is "vile.") That, plus the fact that you're practically salivating over the prospect (completely fantastical and unsupported by any stats) of a Muslim on every block, speak more truly to your desire to convert.

(Also: "that's all" not "thats" all.)

Self-correcting again, because you really are that petty. "... we don't want to get into that one)."

Anonymous wrote:I have heard of Christian missionary groups but I have never heard of Muslim missionary groups, have you? I worked with refugee Muslim families and they told me about Christian missionary groups on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. They are impoverished Muslim families and the familes tell me that Christian missionary groups sweep in, providing baskets of food and water but also quite a few brochures on "Jesus, our Savior." lol Honestly, Muslims NEVER want people to convert under compulsion or coercion. It has to be through revelation and divine guidance. Muslima was speaking in "flowery" terms not because she was proselytizing, but simply because she clearly is devoted and loves her faith. Nothing wrong with that! It just irritated the hell out of you that she spoke so positively about her faith, thats all.

I think Muslima and I have been informative and answered questions to the best of our ability. I think we've done a fine job. I'm glad that now this thread will permanently remain with links included for people to learn more about true Islam. My intention was never to convert anyone, but simply to remove some of the hatred and vile accusations against a religion that is dear to billions of people.

Please, just stop. Islam is ALL about conversion. You deny the "compulsion" part, and that lack of compulsion is probably true in many areas. But compulsion MOST DEFINITELY EXISTS in Muslim-run areas where non-Muslim dhimmis face economic sanctions for not converting, and where polytheists are subject to slavery for not converting (I'm thinking of Mauritania, for example).

You simply can't, and shouldn't feign, ignorance about Muslim efforts to convert people. For example, a mosque in Virginia leaves flyers on doorsteps (my non-Muslim coworker finds them on her doorstep) about Islam. Some flyers talk about the "truths of Islam" and one flyer even argued that Islam isn't really anti-dog (yes, I understand the various positions about cats vs. dogs, but I think we can all agree we don't want to get into that one.)

The fact that you and Muslima are deliberately painting a distorted picture of Islam is proof enough that you're trying to convert people. (Sorry, but a distorted picture is not "fine job" at all, and clarifying the distortions isn't "vile" unless you think the truth about your religion is "vile.") That, plus the fact that you're practically salivating over the prospect (completely fantastical and unsupported by any stats) of a Muslim on every block, speak more truly to your desire to convert.

(Also: "that's all" not "thats" all.)

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we all know about the Muslim obsession with making the whole world Muslim. That doesn't make it reality, though.

In any case, it seems really unlikely that Muslima's effort to proselytize on DCUM would have won any converts.

Note for future proselytizing efforts: don't present disingenuously rosy pictures of your religion, to the point that other posters have to come on repeatedly to correct the record. Also, when the argument doesn't go your way, don't act like a spoiled baby. Both of these behaviors create a terrible impression of your religion.

I have heard of Christian missionary groups but I have never heard of Muslim missionary groups, have you? I worked with refugee Muslim families and they told me about Christian missionary groups on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. They are impoverished Muslim families and the familes tell me that Christian missionary groups sweep in, providing baskets of food and water but also quite a few brochures on "Jesus, our Savior." lol Honestly, Muslims NEVER want people to convert under compulsion or coercion. It has to be through revelation and divine guidance. Muslima was speaking in "flowery" terms not because she was proselytizing, but simply because she clearly is devoted and loves her faith. Nothing wrong with that! It just irritated the hell out of you that she spoke so positively about her faith, thats all.

I think Muslima and I have been informative and answered questions to the best of our ability. I think we've done a fine job. I'm glad that now this thread will permanently remain with links included for people to learn more about true Islam. My intention was never to convert anyone, but simply to remove some of the hatred and vile accusations against a religion that is dear to billions of people.

Anonymous wrote:
I will look for the evidence you seek regarding the numbers. Meanwhile, why devote so much to explaining that some percentage of Islam includes ghetto or African Americans? WTH? Why is the color of their skin or economic status noteworthy in discussing population numbers? Regardless of color of skin and economic status, they COUNT. Moreover, Islam does not care about the color of anyone's skin or economic status. People from France to African Americans are converting and in God's eyes their devotion is equal. Perhaps this is why so many African Americans do convert to Islam- they feel welcomed in Islam. However, what I described to you in previous pages was the face of the new Muslim. The new Muslim will be a blend of mixed races. And every successive generation will be more wealthy. Iranian Muslims, Arab Muslims, and Pakistan Muslims that are first generation are fairly wealthy and well educated. This pattern will continue. You would never recognize my kids as " Muslim" if you saw them. This is the new face of Islam. But the new generation is not losing their faith in the process of assimilation.

Soon there will be a Muslim on every block if not in every house. Everyone will know at least one Muslim. I am not trying to frighten you with this prediction; its simply the direction we are headed in. So its not wise to alienate such a large population by insults about our religion or references to people in our faith who live in ghetto's...

Can't you see the massive disconnect between "I have no numbers" and your statements that (a) nobody ever leaves Islam during assimilation or for any other reason, (b) Muslims are marrying more of your neighbors, (c) Muslims are becoming rich, and (d) Islam will soon take over your neighborhood? Do you have a single source for any of these claims?

I will look for the evidence you seek regarding the numbers.

I will look forward either to your numbers or to your admission that these numbers do not exist, and the comment about Islam growing by conversion more than immigration in the U.S. is your theory unsupported by evidence.


Meanwhile, why devote so much to explaining that some percentage of Islam includes ghetto or African Americans? WTH? Why is the color of their skin or economic status noteworthy in discussing population numbers? Regardless of color of skin and economic status, they COUNT. Moreover, Islam does not care about the color of anyone's skin or economic status.

Because when a new concept or product makes inroads in the market, the sponsors of this concept of products usually pay attention to the demographics of their customers. Let's flip this around. If the majority of the Muslim converts in the U.S. were Harvard graduates, I would bet my firstborn that this fact will be present in every single piece of dawa literature CAIR hands out. So it seems equally legitimate to present the analysis of the real population of American Muslims and to note where most of them come from. These are the forgotten Muslims whose voice has never been included in the political Muslim discourse - simply because this population doesn't have the wherewithal to become political. But they are Muslims nevertheless, and they have specific needs and challenges. It isn't becoming of you to insist that they a)don't exist, or b) are Muslims like any other. The challenges faced by this population are very different from those faced by immigrant Muslims. Yet Muslim discourse in America is shaped by wealthy immigrant Muslims.

Islam may not care about anyone's skin color or economic status. But Muslims do.


People from France to African Americans are converting and in God's eyes their devotion is equal. Perhaps this is why so many African Americans do convert to Islam- they feel welcomed in Islam.

African-Americans convert to Islam for many reasons. If you want to talk about that population intelligently, do a bit of reading and progress to beyond "perhaps." They aren't like you. Their problems are not like your problems.


However, what I described to you in previous pages was the face of the new Muslim. The new Muslim will be a blend of mixed races. And every successive generation will be more wealthy. Iranian Muslims, Arab Muslims, and Pakistan Muslims that are first generation are fairly wealthy and well educated. This pattern will continue. You would never recognize my kids as " Muslim" if you saw them. This is the new face of Islam. But the new generation is not losing their faith in the process of assimilation.

In the U.S., they are, because the U.S. enforces education and income barriers to entry. In Europe, not so. These Muslims aren't wealthy or educated.

I should also mention, for reality's sake, that Iranian Muslims are a separate population with whom mainstream Sunni Islam seeks no particular affiliation. You can spin your tales of Muslim unity when you succeed in eradicating the term "rafidah" from the Sunni discourse.

Soon there will be a Muslim on every block if not in every house. Everyone will know at least one Muslim. I am not trying to frighten you with this prediction; its simply the direction we are headed in. So its not wise to alienate such a large population by insults about our religion or references to people in our faith who live in ghetto's..

Oh dear. There are three Muslims in my house already. There is a certainly-Muslim child growing in my womb. You don't frighten me with Muslim anything. I lived among them all my life. I know Muslim reality, both here and elsewhere. The Muslim reality in the U.S. is this:

- the prediction of Muslims in every block, if not in every house, is not supported by demographic evidence, unless your definition of "soon" differs from most people mean. If you brought numbers to show the forecast of Muslim population in the U.S, that'd be different. But all you brought is your own passion. Very nice, eh, but unconvincing.

Realistic criticism of your religion is not an insult, unless you a sort of Muslim to whom everyone who doesn't like Islam is an offender.

It's not an insult to say many Muslim-Americans hail from the ghetto. They do. That's their economic and demographic reality. If you don't like the word ghetto, how about this: many Muslim-Americans are black, poor, have below-high school education and often a prison record. They are also ignored by wealthy immigrant Muslims who think their voices are enough to shape Muslim discourse in America.

Polite enough for you?

Reformatting so it's clear who's saying what....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm done with the effort to be respectful. Let's rephrase, shall we? ISLAM PERMITS MUSLIM SOLDIERS TO RAPE NON-MUSLIM WOMEN CAPTIVES.

I haven't even begun to address this new accusation now about captives. Lets see..we went from Muhammad being a pedophile to Islam being unjust in divorce, testimony, inheritance, then the very noteworthy info that many converts are, gasp, African American, and poor too.. and not one of Muslima's or my explanations did you accept but now we're onto the topic of captives, are we?

And all of that was you being respectful?

I never addressed the point about Mary that you or others brought up because I thought it moot. Isn't Mary equally revered in the Christian faith? Do Christians not pray to Mary also? Are there not statues of Mary around or in Christian places of worship? If Muhammad was a pedophile in (brace yourself, its coming again) 600 AD, then why do you say "Hail Mary" prayers and have statues of her in your churches given the disgrace of becoming pregnant, particularly in that time, with no husband?

Apparently you don't truly think the point about Mary is moot, because you keep repeating that she's a porn queen and talking about it in terms of "disgrace." Once again: being a slut involves consent, but Mary's situation did not bring consent into the picture. You seem to be having difficulty understanding the issue of female consent.

Catholics pray to Mary, I believe as an intercessor rather than, as you seem to imply, someone with godlike powers to change things. Perhaps a Catholic can clarify. Other Christian denominations don't pray to Mary and may or may not have statues in their churches.

Finally, the point about captives starts on about page 2-3 of this thread, so it isn't "new." I get that clarifying your half-truths about captives, divorce, inheritance, testimony and the dearth of statistics on converts amounts to "disrespect" in your eyes. But I think the discourse has been respectful and focused on drilling down to the full truths and facts about these things (except for the pedophile poster who, I repeat, is not me). It would truly be interesting to see you finally address the captive issue.

(Also: you messed up the ellipses again. Twice. In the middle of a sentence you want 3 dots, and at end of a sentence you want 4 dots. You never want 2 dots. Also, "let's" not "lets" and "it's" not "its".)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This sounds like your fantasy more than any possible reality.

Also, why did you assume PP's reference to African American converts was somehow pejorative? I didn't read it that way. This seems to be your problem, not hers.

Also, ghettos not ghetto's.

So why mention it? And why mention ghettos? Just lunchtime table convo?

I suppose. I'm not that poster, and I can't know why she mentioned that.

Anonymous wrote:

I'm done with the effort to be respectful. Let's rephrase, shall we? ISLAM PERMITS MUSLIM SOLDIERS TO RAPE NON-MUSLIM WOMEN CAPTIVES.

I haven't even begun to address this new accusation now about captives. Lets see..we went from Muhammad being a pedophile to Islam being unjust in divorce, testimony, inheritance, then the very noteworthy info that many converts are, gasp, African American, and poor too.. and not one of Muslima's or my explanations did you accept but now we're onto the topic of captives, are we?

And all of that was you being respectful?

I never addressed the point about Mary that you or others brought up because I thought it moot. Isn't Mary equally revered in the Christian faith? Do Christians not pray to Mary also? Are there not statues of Mary around or in Christian places of worship? If Muhammad was a pedophile in (brace yourself, its coming again) 600 AD, then why do you say "Hail Mary" prayers and have statues of her in your churches given the disgrace of becoming pregnant, particularly in that time, with no husband?