15:32, read a history book. Not the Koran. You are misinformed, to say the least. Pals are from Jordan, nor Israel.

Please let us not forget one simple fact here. Israel is BORROWING this land. It is not theirs to own. On top of that they got greedy and then took over even more land that was not theirs. It is not theirs to defend in my opinion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would add that I think Israel is failing "its people" and by that I mean both Israeli's and Jewish people all around the world in the tremendous antisemitism they are creating as a result of their barbaric actions.

It is immoral and incredibly irresponsible and it is the government of Israel that will have to ultimately bear responsibility for any backlash worldwide.

While the Israeli government will have to answer, I doubt in America that Jewish people will be fired from jobs, synagogues burnt to the ground, etc. I do anticipate and see the increase and so-called justification of anti-semitism has increased verbally in this area. I have seen and heard it. I have also witnessed up front tremendous support for Palestine which is welcomed.

This is what makes America great. The right to voice and be heard....as long as you keep your hands and anything else to yourself.

My assessment is that there's acute and increasing criticism of Israeli policy. I think many people have been unwilling to criticize Israel in the past for fear of being labelled anti-Semitic. I think for many people those days are over. Personally, I have not seen an increase in anti-Semitism around me, but maybe that's the company I keep. You mention that verbal anti-Semitism has increased in this area. Could you tell me what you've heard or offer a few examples?

Gladly. I have seen the glares and off-cuff remarks in a major grocery store. Who makes a curt remark over someone squeezing a melon? The absolute worse was recently on the graveyard shift, and one of the patient's absolutely refused to be treated by one of the Jewish physicians (identifiable by the name tag). I reluctantly took over but I'll be damned if you start that nonsense with me. If you want to criticize policy, that's acceptable to me but don't come into my workplace creating a hostile environment where our purpose is to heal. Take it elsewhere regardless of which side you're on.

And just in case you're curious, I don't tolerate the N-word nonsense either.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would add that I think Israel is failing "its people" and by that I mean both Israeli's and Jewish people all around the world in the tremendous antisemitism they are creating as a result of their barbaric actions.

It is immoral and incredibly irresponsible and it is the government of Israel that will have to ultimately bear responsibility for any backlash worldwide.

While the Israeli government will have to answer, I doubt in America that Jewish people will be fired from jobs, synagogues burnt to the ground, etc. I do anticipate and see the increase and so-called justification of anti-semitism has increased verbally in this area. I have seen and heard it. I have also witnessed up front tremendous support for Palestine which is welcomed.

This is what makes America great. The right to voice and be heard....as long as you keep your hands and anything else to yourself.

My assessment is that there's acute and increasing criticism of Israeli policy. I think many people have been unwilling to criticize Israel in the past for fear of being labelled anti-Semitic. I think for many people those days are over. Personally, I have not seen an increase in anti-Semitism around me, but maybe that's the company I keep. You mention that verbal anti-Semitism has increased in this area. Could you tell me what you've heard or offer a few examples?

Gladly. I have seen the glares and off-cuff remarks in a major grocery store. Who makes a curt remark over someone squeezing a melon? The absolute worse was recently on the graveyard shift, and one of the patient's absolutely refused to be treated by one of the Jewish physicians (identifiable by the name tag). I reluctantly took over but I'll be damned if you start that nonsense with me. If you want to criticize policy, that's acceptable to me but don't come into my workplace creating a hostile environment where our purpose is to heal. Take it elsewhere regardless of which side you're on.

Yes. Political Islam is evil and no Arab state supports it. Not Hamas, not Ikhwan, not ISIS.

Still, innocent people should have a voice. A protector. Who?

Anonymous wrote:Palestinans should move to Jordan. The fact is that Israel gives more opportunity for Israeli Arabs that any nation in the Middle East. Why have no other Arab countries spoken out against Israel during this entire war? Because they know that Hamas is a terrorist organization and that the Palestinan people all support Hamas, whose sole mission is the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew. The IDF should not stop destroying the entire Gaza territory.

One Gazan friend told me a few days ago "I always thought that Israel controls Gaza. But today, I have realized that Israel controls all Arab countries except Gaza" The reason Arab governments are not saying a word right now is because they are afraid that people will rise and overthrow them from power; thus, they are taking every step that is needed to prevent an uprising in their countries, just a scenario even if it means aligning with Israel.The Middle East is divided and weak. Everyone is protecting his/her interest.Today Iran is the protagonist while Turkey is fighting for regional influence. Saudi Arabia (Sunni)& Iran (Shia)are against each other on sectarian balance of power game. This is played out in Syria where Saudis supports Sunnis insurgency and Iranians support Assads govt. Wait, but how come Hamas a Sunni group was/is supported by Iranians ( Shia)? The Saudis are against Muslim brotherhoods and Hamas (both Sunnis)because Islamist politics is unsettling to them.You can see why they have to keep this so called Islamic leaders on a noose! Iraq is dead today after the US invasion. Iran has more influence over Iraq today! And now we have the new kids on the block-ISIS In Iraq who want to compete with Iran on regional influence.This is the same group the US is opposing and wants to stop! Then how come the US is letting their Saudis allies support ISIS, a group the US considers a Terrorist group? The US could care less, but it want to limit Iranian influence, but at the same time supports Iranian backed government in Iraq against Sunni insurgents .Also the US wants to negotiate with Iran on the nuclear weapon issue, but wait will this not let Iran get away with some concession that will be detrimental to the US allies like Saudi and Israel? Hmmm.See how all this is all politics and who get to keep the cheese. Can give you a headache for days, just thinking about it!!

Anonymous wrote:Palestinans should move to Jordan. The fact is that Israel gives more opportunity for Israeli Arabs that any nation in the Middle East. Why have no other Arab countries spoken out against Israel during this entire war? Because they know that Hamas is a terrorist organization and that the Palestinan people all support Hamas, whose sole mission is the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew. The IDF should not stop destroying the entire Gaza territory.

Jordan's poor and can't handle that many people.

Why do Jews who have no toes to Israel have a "right of return" to Israel, but Palestinians whose grandparents lived in Israel aren't allowed out of the cage of Gaza and into their homeland?

Palestinans should move to Jordan. The fact is that Israel gives more opportunity for Israeli Arabs that any nation in the Middle East. Why have no other Arab countries spoken out against Israel during this entire war? Because they know that Hamas is a terrorist organization and that the Palestinan people all support Hamas, whose sole mission is the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew. The IDF should not stop destroying the entire Gaza territory.

Israel is always going to be in a precarious position as long as it doesn't extend equal rights to all populations. That's the real evil, and it fosters the climate for horrific crimes from both sides. We've seen it everywhere we've seen ethnic cleansing. Someone is treated as subhuman first. It's an untenable position.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Right now, they are putting kids bodies in ice cream coolers because they ran our of room .Some people call Hamas Terrorists and some call them Heroes. Some call Israel a terrorist state and some call it a legitimate state. Children are children, if you kill them intentionally and try to justify the reasons behind doing that, then everybody will call you a terrorist. Period.

I agree with every you say except for the implication of what is in bold. I am 100% certain that Israel is not killing kids intentionally. That kids are dying is a tragedy. But they are not being killed intentionally.

If the militants did not use the area near the shelters as launch sites, if the militants did not use the shelters to store weapons (a war crime, by the way), then shelters would not be hit.

I am not on the ground, so I do not know what is actually happening, but consider the possibility that Hamas militants are firing from the vicinity of shelters...say 20m - 30 m away. Israel responds with artillery or mortars to the launch site. Unfortunately, there is something called Circular Error of probability (CEP). The CEP for the artillery is typically on the order of 10 m, according to http://aviationweek.com/awin/new-israeli-artillery-concepts-technology-combine-0 . With a CEP of 10, that means that there is a 50% chance that the munition will land within 10 m of the target. That is pretty good.

Now, if you launch 100 attacks, 1/2 will miss by more that 10 m, 1/4 or so by more than 20m. So of the 100 rounds, 25 will miss by more that 20 m, but in any direction. A shelter is 20 m from the target....assume the shelter is 20x20 m, and 20m is the closest point. In such a scenario, simulations I did indicate they would have about a 3.5% chance of hitting the shelter. In this scenario, they were not targeting the shelter. The problem is the children are caught in the crossfire, not that they are being intentionally targeted.

I respectfully disagree. With the use of drones, F-16s and an arsenal of modern weapon technology, Israel has the ability to target single individuals and therefore to avoid civilian casualties. But rather than avoid them, Israel has repeatedly targeted civilians as part of its military operations. Israel itself said it, they used the the Dahiya Doctrine which is central to these operations and refers to Israel's indiscriminate attacks on civilians. After they did it it in Lebanon in 2006. Maj. Gen. Gadi Eizenkot said that this would be applied elsewhere:


stuff deleted for brevity

You can disagree, but what I stated is not an opinion. You drop a bomb from an f16, you have a target, but it does not nessisarily land on the target. There are uncertainties in everything....Including dropping bombs from an F16. Or from artillery. Smart munitions reduces the uncertainties, but does not eliminate them. This is not a matter for debate. This is how things work.

What you can argue is the overall targeting of something that has a reasonable chance of hitting something you don't want to hit (the shelter). But, then, if we blame Israel, we must also blame Hamas for firing within the buffer (assuming that is what happened).

What I said is also a fact, not an opinion. Israel as an occupier doesn't have the right to bomb civilian areas, that has been deemed a crime by the International court. I cited you the law in the part of my post you deleted but you can research International Law of warfare for occupiers on your own. Bottom line, there is no justification no matter how you want to slice it, it is a crime and the Law says so.

Here's a piece by a New Zealand columnist not afraid to speak the truth:

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/shows/earlyedition/highlights/rachel-smalley-1aug2014

When will her counterparts in the US mainstream media have similar courage? Labeling Israel for what it has become - a brutal "killing machine" - is but a necessary first step. Then the world needs to decide the future of Palestine.

UN secretary general has stated unequivocally that Israel's latest strikes are war crimes. Israel is growing more isolated and hated by the day and so too are those who continue to defend its conduct.

That is not anti-semitism, as many Jews denounce Israel and those who have not can still realize they are in the wrong and need to realize that Palestinian children matter just as much to God as Jewish ones.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Right now, they are putting kids bodies in ice cream coolers because they ran our of room .Some people call Hamas Terrorists and some call them Heroes. Some call Israel a terrorist state and some call it a legitimate state. Children are children, if you kill them intentionally and try to justify the reasons behind doing that, then everybody will call you a terrorist. Period.

I agree with every you say except for the implication of what is in bold. I am 100% certain that Israel is not killing kids intentionally. That kids are dying is a tragedy. But they are not being killed intentionally.

If the militants did not use the area near the shelters as launch sites, if the militants did not use the shelters to store weapons (a war crime, by the way), then shelters would not be hit.

I am not on the ground, so I do not know what is actually happening, but consider the possibility that Hamas militants are firing from the vicinity of shelters...say 20m - 30 m away. Israel responds with artillery or mortars to the launch site. Unfortunately, there is something called Circular Error of probability (CEP). The CEP for the artillery is typically on the order of 10 m, according to http://aviationweek.com/awin/new-israeli-artillery-concepts-technology-combine-0 . With a CEP of 10, that means that there is a 50% chance that the munition will land within 10 m of the target. That is pretty good.

Now, if you launch 100 attacks, 1/2 will miss by more that 10 m, 1/4 or so by more than 20m. So of the 100 rounds, 25 will miss by more that 20 m, but in any direction. A shelter is 20 m from the target....assume the shelter is 20x20 m, and 20m is the closest point. In such a scenario, simulations I did indicate they would have about a 3.5% chance of hitting the shelter. In this scenario, they were not targeting the shelter. The problem is the children are caught in the crossfire, not that they are being intentionally targeted.

I respectfully disagree. With the use of drones, F-16s and an arsenal of modern weapon technology, Israel has the ability to target single individuals and therefore to avoid civilian casualties. But rather than avoid them, Israel has repeatedly targeted civilians as part of its military operations. Israel itself said it, they used the the Dahiya Doctrine which is central to these operations and refers to Israel's indiscriminate attacks on civilians. After they did it it in Lebanon in 2006. Maj. Gen. Gadi Eizenkot said that this would be applied elsewhere:


stuff deleted for brevity

You can disagree, but what I stated is not an opinion. You drop a bomb from an f16, you have a target, but it does not nessisarily land on the target. There are uncertainties in everything....Including dropping bombs from an F16. Or from artillery. Smart munitions reduces the uncertainties, but does not eliminate them. This is not a matter for debate. This is how things work.

What you can argue is the overall targeting of something that has a reasonable chance of hitting something you don't want to hit (the shelter). But, then, if we blame Israel, we must also blame Hamas for firing within the buffer (assuming that is what happened).

I am late to this post and do not have time to read over the many pages but that the line between antisemitism and anti Israeli is quite muddled at this point. I say this-

When someone is an American Jew lets say like my friends ex husband has a strong allegiance to Israel, and made no qualms about it whatsoever well he is making it clear that he is pledging himself FIRST as a Jew above anything else. And in this case he must at the same be prepared to deal with the blows and hardships that come along with his dissociation as both a Jew and his allegiance to Israel.

He cannot have one or the other. It might not be right or fair. Same as Iran. There are many great Iranians or course like there are many wonderful Israelis but many many ignorant people associate ALL Iranians to be bad, to be terrorists etc.....we know this is not true . English is my second language and maybe my point is not being made clear I hope it is because in my mind I think it makes very clear sense.

This killing and sadness makes me cry every day, when I see these young children and all these families with no hope, no homes, they lose everything. It does break my heart.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Turning this into a discussion of anti-Semitism is a diversion straight from the Israeli playbook. Israel would be a disgusting country regardless of the religion of its leaders, because it disregards international law more than any other country and murders civilians.

The narcissism of those who want to suggest that our major concern right now should be to nip a resurgence of anti-Semitism is the bud have their priorities very misplaced. Save the dying kids in Gaza first.

If 6 million of your people were systematically exterminated you would want to nip discrimination (in this case anti-semitism) in the bud too!

I think you prove PP's point.

The priority of the Jews should be to prevent the resurgance of anti-semetism-after the Holocaust I can't blame then. Should kids in Gaza die-no-but neither should millions of Jewish kids.

Can you explain how "millions of Jewish kids" are currently at risk? Because all current events point to being Gazan as being the biggest mortality risk.

No one thought millions of Jewish kids were at risk pre-holocaust but they were-and heavy anti-semitic sentiment is what started it all.

That's a what-if in the future, though. No immediate threat.

Prevention is the best medicine!

So, is the carnage in Gaza is to be excused as "preventative medicine"? Surely you're not saying that.