Anonymous wrote:With regard to "redistricting," no one thinks it's racist that the only way to increase minority achievement is to pepper minority students throughout white schools?

doesn't sound racist at all

I thought Barclay pretty much said it was racist to say this, but I could be wrong. You'd have to look at the exact response he gave. It may have been more nuanced than that.

With regard to "redistricting," no one thinks it's racist that the only way to increase minority achievement is to pepper minority students throughout white schools?

doesn't sound racist at all

Anonymous wrote:It is actually a common approach within the upper ranks of MCPS to try to shame parents who criticize the local schools by calling them racist. What's worse is that the very people who are pulling the magic word out of a hat are often the people who have moved their families to the very white parts of MoCo. What is more racist? To move to a very white part of the county to make sure your kid goes to a school with mostly white middle class kids, or to move to a diverse neighborhood, but expect the school system to help make the schools attractive to everyone who lives in those communities?

+1

PREACH!

Anonymous wrote:"It is ALSO racism. That does not mean that it is exclusively racism. But racism is involved. Not to mention that it is impossible to have an honest discussion of SES in Montgomery County -- or the US in general -- without including race and racism."

But by saying that it's racism you basically try to dismiss the concerns that parents rightfully have about those schools. If avoidance of a school is chalked up to racism then that is not something fixable which might be convenient for MCPS but truly sucks for the many eastern county families that would like to be able to send their kids to those schools and it also sucks for the lower SES kids that currently make up a majority of their school populations since the best way to rehabilitate a school is to entice more middle class families to attend.

No. By saying that it is also racism, I am saying that racism is a factor. Not only the only factor. Not "the problem is exclusively racism". Not "everybody who has concerns is a racist." Simply that racism is a factor. Because it is. And it does us no good to pretend that it isn't.

It is actually a common approach within the upper ranks of MCPS to try to shame parents who criticize the local schools by calling them racist. What's worse is that the very people who are pulling the magic word out of a hat are often the people who have moved their families to the very white parts of MoCo. What is more racist? To move to a very white part of the county to make sure your kid goes to a school with mostly white middle class kids, or to move to a diverse neighborhood, but expect the school system to help make the schools attractive to everyone who lives in those communities?

"It is ALSO racism. That does not mean that it is exclusively racism. But racism is involved. Not to mention that it is impossible to have an honest discussion of SES in Montgomery County -- or the US in general -- without including race and racism."

But by saying that it's racism you basically try to dismiss the concerns that parents rightfully have about those schools. If avoidance of a school is chalked up to racism then that is not something fixable which might be convenient for MCPS but truly sucks for the many eastern county families that would like to be able to send their kids to those schools and it also sucks for the lower SES kids that currently make up a majority of their school populations since the best way to rehabilitate a school is to entice more middle class families to attend.

Anonymous wrote:"It is absolutely also racism."

No it's not. That suggests that the main reason people are avoiding these schools is that the kids are black and Hispanic. Plenty of my black neighbors are also avoiding local middle and high schools. Does that mean they are racist too against their own race?

The reality is that SES dynamics are very strong and that includes behavior and cultural issues as well as the community feel to a school. Again, these issues can be reduced if you have a critical mass of MC kids at the school (regardless of race) but it had already been clearly established that the county won't be busing kids from other areas. So all that remains us to focus on the families in he red zone that are avoiding it currently to figure out how to change that.

It is ALSO racism. That does not mean that it is exclusively racism. But racism is involved. Not to mention that it is impossible to have an honest discussion of SES in Montgomery County -- or the US in general -- without including race and racism.

"Our school has a Great Schools rating of 2. I could care less what color/nationality the kids at her school are."

Exactly.

Can anyone comment on which practices used to address this issue are currently successful in other parts of the country?
Massive boundary changes seems unfair on those who (over)paid and busing is costly. How have other places attracted middle class families? Just wondering

Anonymous wrote:"It is absolutely also racism."

No it's not. That suggests that the main reason people are avoiding these schools is that the kids are black and Hispanic. Plenty of my black neighbors are also avoiding local middle and high schools. Does that mean they are racist too against their own race?

The reality is that SES dynamics are very strong and that includes behavior and cultural issues as well as the community feel to a school. Again, these issues can be reduced if you have a critical mass of MC kids at the school (regardless of race) but it had already been clearly established that the county won't be busing kids from other areas. So all that remains us to focus on the families in he red zone that are avoiding it currently to figure out how to change that.

I think it's really hard to separate race and class issues. My local elementary school is 99% Black and Hispanic though my immediate neighborhood is mainly white. I am white. My daughter is mixed race (White and Black (Latino)). Our school has a Great Schools rating of 2. I could care less what color/nationality the kids at her school are. I care about that rating of 2--and yes, I know that GS ratings are not the be all end all, but a 2 is pretty bad. Nobody in my neighborhood sends their child to that school, except for a couple of kids from families who are living many families to a single house. I really want my child to be able to attend that school, and really don't care as much about the high school (I went to a pretty rough high school and did fine) but sending a little kid to a crap school seems worse somehow.

Clearly meant: " So all that remains is to focus on the families in the red zone that are avoiding it currently to figure out how to change that."

"It is absolutely also racism."

No it's not. That suggests that the main reason people are avoiding these schools is that the kids are black and Hispanic. Plenty of my black neighbors are also avoiding local middle and high schools. Does that mean they are racist too against their own race?

The reality is that SES dynamics are very strong and that includes behavior and cultural issues as well as the community feel to a school. Again, these issues can be reduced if you have a critical mass of MC kids at the school (regardless of race) but it had already been clearly established that the county won't be busing kids from other areas. So all that remains us to focus on the families in he red zone that are avoiding it currently to figure out how to change that.

Anonymous wrote:"Ok but why? Is it really just racism or are the whiter/Asian schools doing something differently? Is it the students behavior, the dedication to academic achievement, the commitment to college? Why are the white/Asian schools better?"

No it is not racism. It is class issues. The white / Asian schools are not doing things magically differently. But the kids in them come from homes where they are well fed, get enough sleep, have money for extracurriculars, time to help with homework, etc. schools can best address the needs of the more needy kids if a large chunk of the rest of the school only need the normal type of services (meaning needs taught but does not need lots of "social services"). In addition the better off kids help serve as positive role models generally speaking and their families are more likely to be able to do things to support the school like volunteer or PTA participation.

The school cannot do it all and to be a successful school it needs a sizable chunk of kids not relying on the school to do all the things that ideally the child's only family would be able to do.

Given the political reality that you will not be diluting out the W zones to spread those kids more evenly across the district, there is simply no way that DCC and NEC schools become better without focusing on why MC families in this districts are avoiding them and how to entice those families back into their local schools.

It is absolutely also racism.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the question to be asked is what people consider to be "good" schools vs "bad" schools. Is it the kids? The teachers and staff? Administration? Performance on standardized tests? SES of the student population? It's a subjective opinion as to what makes a school good or bad. Are we all talking about the same things when we say "good" schools or "bad" schools? I would be very interested in hearing peoples' opinions on this.

It's the kids. People aren't comfortable saying that out loud. If you took the population of Whitman and traded it with the population of Wheaton, suddenly Wheaton would be the "better" school. When people say it's not about race or SES, that they just want the "better" school, what they are not saying is that the "better" school is always the whiter/Asian school.

Ok but why? Is it really just racism or are the whiter/Asian schools doing something differently? Is it the students behavior, the dedication to academic achievement, the commitment to college? Why are the white/Asian schools better?

No, it's not really just racism. It's racism, and it's socioeconomic class (which is also related to racism).

"Ok but why? Is it really just racism or are the whiter/Asian schools doing something differently? Is it the students behavior, the dedication to academic achievement, the commitment to college? Why are the white/Asian schools better?"

No it is not racism. It is class issues. The white / Asian schools are not doing things magically differently. But the kids in them come from homes where they are well fed, get enough sleep, have money for extracurriculars, time to help with homework, etc. schools can best address the needs of the more needy kids if a large chunk of the rest of the school only need the normal type of services (meaning needs taught but does not need lots of "social services"). In addition the better off kids help serve as positive role models generally speaking and their families are more likely to be able to do things to support the school like volunteer or PTA participation.

The school cannot do it all and to be a successful school it needs a sizable chunk of kids not relying on the school to do all the things that ideally the child's only family would be able to do.

Given the political reality that you will not be diluting out the W zones to spread those kids more evenly across the district, there is simply no way that DCC and NEC schools become better without focusing on why MC families in this districts are avoiding them and how to entice those families back into their local schools.