Anonymous
08/31/2012 13:44
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Anonymous wrote:Who is upset?
I have read a lot of unvarnished plain and matter of fact common sense.
And then I have read way far more nonsense over all the intelligent children of posters who never prep. And than have the audacity to assert test preparation is unethical while dragging their snowflakes to athletic fields and pools for intensive test prep.
Wait, now the "test prep" companies have outlets at athletic fields and swimming pools? Wow, what a business model! I guess they are just covering all the bases, so to speak.
Anonymous
08/31/2012 13:38
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Who is upset?
I have read a lot of unvarnished plain and matter of fact common sense.
And then I have read way far more nonsense over all the intelligent children of posters who never prep. And than have the audacity to assert test preparation is unethical while dragging their snowflakes to athletic fields and pools for intensive test prep.
I have read a lot of unvarnished plain and matter of fact common sense.
And then I have read way far more nonsense over all the intelligent children of posters who never prep. And than have the audacity to assert test preparation is unethical while dragging their snowflakes to athletic fields and pools for intensive test prep.
Anonymous
08/31/2012 13:29
Subject: Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Some one gets very upset when anyone else fails to see value in hours of "test prep."
And, you're right, it's a free country and people have the right to form their own opinions with as much information as they can gather, analyze, and then come to their own conclusion.
It's always nice when the information they gather is conveyed in a respectful way- it actually carries more weight that way.
And, you're right, it's a free country and people have the right to form their own opinions with as much information as they can gather, analyze, and then come to their own conclusion.
It's always nice when the information they gather is conveyed in a respectful way- it actually carries more weight that way.
Anonymous
08/31/2012 13:09
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Anonymous wrote:
What is being said is that "test prep," defined as doing standardized test questions over and over again ... can enable one to increase one's test score, but not necessarily one's overall intelligence.
The standardized tests administered to kids in ES seem to entail a lot of pattern recognition/matching problems. Wouldn't repeated exposure to such problems generally improve the brain's ability to recognize and manipulate similar patterns? The assertion that practicing for such as test only has an effect on the test score needs to be substantiated.
Anonymous
08/31/2012 13:08
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
If one's goal is to run and swim the fastest or jump and throw the furthest you must practice the art with hard effort.
If one's goal is to get the highest score on the test one must practice the art with hard effort.
Since the Bill of Rights and US constitution give one the liberty of pursuing one's choices or passions no one should care if any citizen wants to run the fastest or get the highest score on a test.
No one gives a horse's ass about why any American wants to jump the highest or get the highest score (except for nincompoops here in the latter case)
If one's goal is to get the highest score on the test one must practice the art with hard effort.
Since the Bill of Rights and US constitution give one the liberty of pursuing one's choices or passions no one should care if any citizen wants to run the fastest or get the highest score on a test.
No one gives a horse's ass about why any American wants to jump the highest or get the highest score (except for nincompoops here in the latter case)
Anonymous
08/31/2012 13:04
Subject: Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Guess you missed the part where it was stated that being highly intelligent doesn't mean there is no need to study and work hard. Everyone should do lots of studying and hard work directed at real educational goals- Just no need for hours upon hours of standardized "test prep"
defined as doing standardized test questions over and over again (by doing practice tests released, usually, by the testing company, but sometimes obtained by other means)
Anonymous
08/31/2012 11:31
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
I don't blame borderline kids trying hard to try it.
I'm just glad that my kids are just smart enough to get in without a sweat.
I'm just glad that my kids are just smart enough to get in without a sweat.
Anonymous
08/31/2012 11:17
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:How can that be? Intelligence is what you are born with? It is fixed and doesn't change up or down. My kids were born with high intelligence. They got into AAP without studying or prepping. I'm sure they will ace all their tests through the Ivy League. Some kids are born gifted, just like Phelps, but I don't understanded why he had to train and prep , much harder than the non gifted swimmers. Oh well.
+1. Well said.
In fact, there is no need for school at all for those with such intelligence. I think I will take my trip on many field trips... how many is it again that I can get away with?
One aspect of high intelligence is the ability to understand subtleties and not see the world in black and white. No one here said that highly intelligent people have no need for studying. Studying is an extremely important part of education.* What is being said is that "test prep," defined as doing standardized test questions over and over again (by doing practice tests released, usually, by the testing company, but sometimes obtained by other means), can enable one to increase one's test score, but not necessarily one's overall intelligence.
Parents can help children to reach their highest possible intelligence by exposing them to lots of different educational experiences: books, science labs, maps, music, museums of history and art and science, and, yes field trips to oceans and mountains and tide pools and forests. Learning about the physical forces that shape our earth and the human forces that shape our societies are all crucial to a strong educational background. Even learning the basics of how to take a standardized test is important but only as a small part of the whole of a child's education. Memorization as a learning technique is a necessary skill (spelling and math facts to name only two of many examples) but not the only worthwhile learning technique.
Focus on standardized "test prep" is just not enough to produce a well educated adult and, in any event, the amount of time spent on it will eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. Focus on real educational experiences, both in and out of school, will result in a well educated adult who makes worthwhile contributions to society.
*And is the reason that parents of highly intelligent children want their kids in special programs- so that schoolwork doesn't come overly easily to them and that they do learn to study. No one will ever reach any kind of success without hard work- but it has to be the right kind of hard work applied in the right way.
Anonymous
08/31/2012 10:51
Subject: Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Anonymous wrote:No one is saying studying in general is a bad thing. One does not grow up without training to be a scientist. However, studying should be for the long term goal. There is no way to study for the CogAT and NNAT; you can prep for them by doing repeated practice tests (which some people do). That does not have long-term benefit.
I agree with this poster. Training or prepping for tests like CogAT, NNAT, WPPSI, WISC defeats their intended purpose, which is to measure the abilities of students for placing them in class setting appropriate for their current abilities. Of course there's nothing wrong with educating your child or exposing her to lots of things. However, if you specifically train your child to score high on those tests, such that her test score is not really reflective of her actual abilities, then you're rendering the tests useless.
To use the sports analogy one other poster on this thread likes to cite, it's great for an athlete to train hard to do well in all aspects of his sport. But if an athlete knows coaches focus their athletic evaluations on just a few narrow measurable abilities as a proxy for overall skill at the sport, and the takes steps to improve just that one measurable aspect of his athletic ability, then the athlete is improperly gaming the system and will ultimately fail.
One example of this would be a football player who wants to be drafted by an NFL team, and who puts all his effort into running the fastest 40 yard dash time possible, without developing his overall football skills. This football player might hire trainers specifically to help him boost his 40 yard dash time, run sprints at high altitude, sleep in an oxygen tent, and maybe even engage in less-legal methods of performance enhancement. In the end, all this effort may allow our football player to run a very fast 40 yard dash, and he might be drafted even though his football skills are substandard. Now in reality, since NFL teams are pretty savvy business enterprises, they're willing to spend the time and money to test draft prospects in many different areas, and intensively evaluate their football skills. So most teams would weed out our "track star" if he lacks real football skills.
But in the public school GT testing system, that one test carries extraordinary weight, so the system can be inappropriately gamed by some unscrupulous parent who wants to prep her child for the test, even though the child lacks the overall academic skills to match that test score.
Anonymous
08/31/2012 10:18
Subject: Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
No one is saying studying in general is a bad thing. One does not grow up without training to be a scientist.
However, studying should be for the long term goal. There is no way to study for the CogAT and NNAT; you can prep for them by doing repeated practice tests (which some people do). That does not have long-term benefit.
On the other hand, puzzles, logic games, reading, exploring (we are talking about 7 and younger kids) can both help on the test (by improving capabilties), and have a long term benefit.
For example, I am a very good standardized test taker. Using logic, I can often find a unique set of consitant answers. In college, once or twice, I used that approach to ace exames without knowing the materal.
However, studying should be for the long term goal. There is no way to study for the CogAT and NNAT; you can prep for them by doing repeated practice tests (which some people do). That does not have long-term benefit.
On the other hand, puzzles, logic games, reading, exploring (we are talking about 7 and younger kids) can both help on the test (by improving capabilties), and have a long term benefit.
For example, I am a very good standardized test taker. Using logic, I can often find a unique set of consitant answers. In college, once or twice, I used that approach to ace exames without knowing the materal.
Anonymous
08/31/2012 09:45
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Anonymous wrote:How can that be? Intelligence is what you are born with? It is fixed and doesn't change up or down. My kids were born with high intelligence. They got into AAP without studying or prepping. I'm sure they will ace all their tests through the Ivy League. Some kids are born gifted, just like Phelps, but I don't understanded why he had to train and prep , much harder than the non gifted swimmers. Oh well.
+1. Well said.
In fact, there is no need for school at all for those with such intelligence. I think I will take my trip on many field trips... how many is it again that I can get away with?
Anonymous
08/31/2012 09:27
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Studying improves test performance. It's not really a hard concept to grasp.
Although Michael Phelps may have been a poor example, a talented athlete does need to train to improve performance. The same goes for academics.
I had a childhood friend who was truly brilliant. She aced every math exam. I think she scored like 1500+ on her SATs when she was in 7th grade. She blew off high school and barely got into college. Til this day she doesn't have a college degree and is now a bartender.
I bet today she would test dumb (on any IQ test) and not have the scores she posted in the 7th grade. Life style, drugs and alcohol over time may affect gene expression (DNA) -- vanishing neuronal pathways.
Anonymous
08/31/2012 09:17
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
How can that be? Intelligence is what you are born with? It is fixed and doesn't change up or down. My kids were born with high intelligence. They got into AAP without studying or prepping. I'm sure they will ace all their tests through the Ivy League. Some kids are born gifted, just like Phelps, but I don't understanded why he had to train and prep , much harder than the non gifted swimmers. Oh well.
Anonymous
08/31/2012 08:50
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Anonymous wrote:It's funny how we keep getting back to the advertising phrases that test prep businesses use to sell their products. Interesting.
It is even funnier that some believe it is ethical (even laudable) for an athlete to train and prepare for a test but unethical for a student to train and prepare for a test to improve physical or mental performance.
Studying improves test performance. It's not really a hard concept to grasp.
Although Michael Phelps may have been a poor example, a talented athlete does need to train to improve performance. The same goes for academics.
I had a childhood friend who was truly brilliant. She aced every math exam. I think she scored like 1500+ on her SATs when she was in 7th grade. She blew off high school and barely got into college. Til this day she doesn't have a college degree and is now a bartender.
Anonymous
08/30/2012 23:55
Subject: Re:Why obsess over getting into gifted program?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Keep begging if you do not understand the concept of triage.
Are you suggesting the limitation of resources in the county prevents public schools from providing appropriate level of education for everyone? Is the AAP program more resource intensive than the general ed program? Does TJ have a bigger budget than the other high schools in the county?[/quote
At least in our school, I would be surprised if AAP classes were a bigger drain on the budget than Gen Ed. There is an AA resource teacher who spends some time in the class, but he also does lower grade enrichment, lII & L3 pull out, etc. He spends some time in every classroom, not just AAP. The AAP teachers often also get additional certification, which is also a cost. BUT, kids in the AAP class usually (but not always) do not need Instructional Aides (in our school, kids with behavioral and intellectual challenges are mainstreamed, but have their own IAs in class with them), ESOL, special Ed/ Autism services, reading & math remediation, social workers, etc., so in some ways, the AAP class is probably less resource intensive. The classes also tend to be large, b/c all qualified kids have to be given slots.
Additionally, challenging kids who are otherwise bored and acting out & understanding common issues with GT kids improves their behavior a lot, so they are less of a drain on school resources. My DS, for example, has a sensory integration disorder and also had problems in k-2 in categories like listening, following directions, and playing well with others. He really blossomed in third grade AAP, and we discovered that SI issues are common in GT boys, so his teachers have known how to work with him. And we no longer need to spend so much time working with his teachers, assistant principal, guidance counselor, school psychologist, etc. and they are freed up to work with other kids.
Before someone points this out,I should say that, of course, AAP kids have learning disabilities, Aspbergers, Social service needs, etc., but my observation is that these issues are often a barrier to AAP placement.