Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

From my reading and understanding of the history of America over the last 300 years, African Americans should be at no disadvantage today compared to other American immigrants (even discounting SES). After all, they have had, and continue to have, equal access to opportunities (and choice) in this country such as land, land ownership, generational wealth, libraries, schools and universities, country clubs, swimming pools and lacrosse, real estate, bank and other business loans, the ballot box, the board rooms and voting rights. I am at a loss to explain thier plight. They did not suffer the Indian ethnic cleansing and holocaust (well over 100 million) over the same period by the hands of other American immigrants from across the Atlantic.

This is a joke, right?

Not the pp but I absolutely agree that African Americans are at no disadvantage compared to other immigrants. I am talking about the 21st century and not previous centuries including the 20th century. The president of the United States is African American!!!!

If anything, there are more resources available to African Americans compared to any other minority. I am totally not saying that they did not have to overcome immense obstacles in previous times but when it comes to African Americans in this generation, there are abundant resources for them.

Anonymous wrote:

From my reading and understanding of the history of America over the last 300 years, African Americans should be at no disadvantage today compared to other American immigrants (even discounting SES). After all, they have had, and continue to have, equal access to opportunities (and choice) in this country such as land, land ownership, generational wealth, libraries, schools and universities, country clubs, swimming pools and lacrosse, real estate, bank and other business loans, the ballot box, the board rooms and voting rights. I am at a loss to explain thier plight. They did not suffer the Indian ethnic cleansing and holocaust (well over 100 million) over the same period by the hands of other American immigrants from across the Atlantic.

This is a joke, right?

I think the african americans are just mad that they aren't the only minority on the block anymore nor even a large one and have to share resources like the rest of us to fund ESOL and the like.

Anonymous wrote:Post from another thread.

I attended 6-7 non-GT classes in Fairfax county over many years in the GT program. Put bluntly, the non-GT classes were terrible. Kids not paying attention, teachers dealing with discipline issues rather than academics, or helping along student who didn't bother to do their homework. Very little writing and analysis expected, and no public speaking opportunities even attempted. I felt like I was at a different school from by regular GT classes.

[list]See FCPS DISCRIMINATION!!! Why do the kids who can perform at A level in their ASSIGNED schools get these opportunities?? This is absolutely discrimination for one child who is smart to be brought down the the above described level while others are given unprecedented opportunities.

[list]that would be: Why do the kids who can perform at A level in their ASSIGNED schools NOT get these opportunities??

Post from another thread.

I attended 6-7 non-GT classes in Fairfax county over many years in the GT program. Put bluntly, the non-GT classes were terrible. Kids not paying attention, teachers dealing with discipline issues rather than academics, or helping along student who didn't bother to do their homework. Very little writing and analysis expected, and no public speaking opportunities even attempted. I felt like I was at a different school from by regular GT classes.

[list]See FCPS DISCRIMINATION!!! Why do the kids who can perform at A level in their ASSIGNED schools get these opportunities?? This is absolutely discrimination for one child who is smart to be brought down the the above described level while others are given unprecedented opportunities.

Did you read the first paragraph? If poor Asian kids from other countries are able to learn English and still get into AAP/TJ, American born African-Americans should also be able to get in. I don't think African-Americans are disadvantaged but have the advantage of having English as their first language. The county goes the extra mile for them in attempts to increase their numbers in AAP/TJ.

One huge cultural difference is that Asian kids are told they can gain success with academic achievement. They don't feel stuck in a low SES.

DH was in all honor classes except English by the time he was in junior high school. He lived out of state but I'm fairly certain that he could have gotten into TJ. He may not have been in honors English but he would not have required ESL classes at that point. Eventually he got ivy league medical training. He was not test prepped by his parents. He would have written his essay all by himself and gotten in because admissions could probably clearly see that he had no help from his parents. He also got free reduced lunch. He hated getting free lunch and living in a crappy apartment. His parents did not have the resources nor did they probably even know about fancy test prep. DH studied on his own. The African-American and Hipsanic counterparts should be able to do the same on their own merit.

From my reading and understanding of the history of America over the last 300 years, African Americans should be at no disadvantage today compared to other American immigrants (even discounting SES). After all, they have had, and continue to have, equal access to opportunities (and choice) in this country such as land, land ownership, generational wealth, libraries, schools and universities, country clubs, swimming pools and lacrosse, real estate, bank and other business loans, the ballot box, the board rooms and voting rights. I am at a loss to explain thier plight. They did not suffer the Indian ethnic cleansing and holocaust (well over 100 million) over the same period by the hands of other American immigrants from across the Atlantic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"PP you are referring to. My parents never prepped me for anything. I aced every exam I took as a young child. I then became a diligent student as I got older. I don't think it is parental persistence; it is individual persistence."

"I grew up in another state. I was in MG (mentally gifted) and took all honors in junior high and all honors/AP classes in high school."

WHO CARES??? Can we stop talking about you and get back to the NAACP complaint?

Certain minority groups are very underrepresented in AAP and TJ. I do not think anyone is suggesting that we "dumb down" any tests or lower any standards.

If there is a gap here, why does the gap exist? Several posts here point to 1)intelligence 2) interest 3) ambition or "individual persistence"

So are we saying that these minority groups lack these things?? As one PP noted the correlation between mother's educational attainment and child's academic success - I am sure there is also a correlation between parents' income and child's academic success.

Sooooo, do we care? Or do we still insist that the poor kids are just not smart, interested or ambitious enough and too bad for them?

I'm so sick of these race games. I grew up poor. My parents could barely speak English. I worked hard and did well in school. I'm Asian though so I supposedly don't count as a minority even though there are more Hispanics and blacks than Asians.

sigh....these "me, me, me", "I pulled myself up by own bootstraps" anecdotes are so lame and not helpful to the discussion.

It has nothing to do with me individually and everything to do with race and is relevant to the discussion.

Based on these boards, the main issue with AAP and TJ is that there are too many Asians (overrepresented in both AAP and TJ compared to their % of the total population) and not enough black/Hispanics in AAP/TJ. What everyone seems to want is less Asians in the program so that more other minorities can be in the program. My whole point is that Asians are a minority too.

Who is "everyone"? Certainly, the NAACP complaint does not state that there should be less Asians in these programs. The Asian population may well be a minority, but does not have a representation problem in AAP or TJ. Your whole point is that Asians are a minority too - ok. And? What kind of recognition are you looking for? Are you saying that if Asians can do it, black and Hispanics should be able to as well? There is a whole historical context of insitutional discrimination against blacks and Hispanics in the U.S. that is different than the history of Asians in the U.S. Of course, there are exceptions (the, "I overcame every obstacle and was successful kind of stories) for every group (low-income, black, Hispanic, Asian) and that is great, but there are obviously some challenges for the named minority groups in the case that do not exist for every group.

Yes, I am saying that if Asians can do it, blacks and Hispanics should be able to as well. Blacks have a history of discrimination in the US but African-Americans have no language barrier. The Spanish language is very similiar in phonics to the English language. Asian languages have significantly different grammar and a completely different alphabet. If Asian children (not all from well educated wealthy families) can come to the US, learn a new language and do fine, I don't see why African-Americans who were born here with English as their first language cannot keep up.

DH came to the states from China, had to learn English and did not ace all his classes in school. He worked at a restaurant. Eventually he learned the English language, got into a decent college, graduated top of his class in his ok college and got through med school. He did superior in med school when English became a non-factor. In the other years, English being a second language was a handicap. Now he's learning Spanish so he can communicate to his non-English speaking patients. It is a breeze learning Spanish compared to trying to learn English from Chinese.

It sounds like your DH certainly would not have been found AAP eligible or made it into TJ, which is what we are talking about here....

Did you read the first paragraph? If poor Asian kids from other countries are able to learn English and still get into AAP/TJ, American born African-Americans should also be able to get in. I don't think African-Americans are disadvantaged but have the advantage of having English as their first language. The county goes the extra mile for them in attempts to increase their numbers in AAP/TJ.

One huge cultural difference is that Asian kids are told they can gain success with academic achievement. They don't feel stuck in a low SES.

DH was in all honor classes except English by the time he was in junior high school. He lived out of state but I'm fairly certain that he could have gotten into TJ. He may not have been in honors English but he would not have required ESL classes at that point. Eventually he got ivy league medical training. He was not test prepped by his parents. He would have written his essay all by himself and gotten in because admissions could probably clearly see that he had no help from his parents. He also got free reduced lunch. He hated getting free lunch and living in a crappy apartment. His parents did not have the resources nor did they probably even know about fancy test prep. DH studied on his own. The African-American and Hipsanic counterparts should be able to do the same on their own merit.

I disagree. Poorer kids in FCPS seem to have more resources available to them at the school academic wise. Wealthier kids have more advantages in extracurriculars, but I don't believe as many academic advantages. What poorer kids don't always have is the pressure to excel at a very high level and seeing success all around them and growing up understanding how adults achieved their success. Asian kids don't have the luxury of not excelling in their families which is why they are doing better than all races.

Working hard and studying a lot to be prepared for a test does mean that person is AAP/ gifted/ or whatever they call those groupings. Those that have all their basics needs comfortably met and have the excess resources to employ tutors and attend test prep classes will on the whole obviously perform better than those who do not have those resources. Its not a race matter but rather socioeconomic. Poorer kids (black, white, hispanic, asian, etc.) have to work harder as they do not have the many opportunities and resources available to them. This isn't really a surprise to anyone.

But thank you for sharing another personal I Made It Story...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"PP you are referring to. My parents never prepped me for anything. I aced every exam I took as a young child. I then became a diligent student as I got older. I don't think it is parental persistence; it is individual persistence."

"I grew up in another state. I was in MG (mentally gifted) and took all honors in junior high and all honors/AP classes in high school."

WHO CARES??? Can we stop talking about you and get back to the NAACP complaint?

Certain minority groups are very underrepresented in AAP and TJ. I do not think anyone is suggesting that we "dumb down" any tests or lower any standards.

If there is a gap here, why does the gap exist? Several posts here point to 1)intelligence 2) interest 3) ambition or "individual persistence"

So are we saying that these minority groups lack these things?? As one PP noted the correlation between mother's educational attainment and child's academic success - I am sure there is also a correlation between parents' income and child's academic success.

Sooooo, do we care? Or do we still insist that the poor kids are just not smart, interested or ambitious enough and too bad for them?

I'm so sick of these race games. I grew up poor. My parents could barely speak English. I worked hard and did well in school. I'm Asian though so I supposedly don't count as a minority even though there are more Hispanics and blacks than Asians.

sigh....these "me, me, me", "I pulled myself up by own bootstraps" anecdotes are so lame and not helpful to the discussion.

It has nothing to do with me individually and everything to do with race and is relevant to the discussion.

Based on these boards, the main issue with AAP and TJ is that there are too many Asians (overrepresented in both AAP and TJ compared to their % of the total population) and not enough black/Hispanics in AAP/TJ. What everyone seems to want is less Asians in the program so that more other minorities can be in the program. My whole point is that Asians are a minority too.

Who is "everyone"? Certainly, the NAACP complaint does not state that there should be less Asians in these programs. The Asian population may well be a minority, but does not have a representation problem in AAP or TJ. Your whole point is that Asians are a minority too - ok. And? What kind of recognition are you looking for? Are you saying that if Asians can do it, black and Hispanics should be able to as well? There is a whole historical context of insitutional discrimination against blacks and Hispanics in the U.S. that is different than the history of Asians in the U.S. Of course, there are exceptions (the, "I overcame every obstacle and was successful kind of stories) for every group (low-income, black, Hispanic, Asian) and that is great, but there are obviously some challenges for the named minority groups in the case that do not exist for every group.

Yes, I am saying that if Asians can do it, blacks and Hispanics should be able to as well. Blacks have a history of discrimination in the US but African-Americans have no language barrier. The Spanish language is very similiar in phonics to the English language. Asian languages have significantly different grammar and a completely different alphabet. If Asian children (not all from well educated wealthy families) can come to the US, learn a new language and do fine, I don't see why African-Americans who were born here with English as their first language cannot keep up.

DH came to the states from China, had to learn English and did not ace all his classes in school. He worked at a restaurant. Eventually he learned the English language, got into a decent college, graduated top of his class in his ok college and got through med school. He did superior in med school when English became a non-factor. In the other years, English being a second language was a handicap. Now he's learning Spanish so he can communicate to his non-English speaking patients. It is a breeze learning Spanish compared to trying to learn English from Chinese.

It sounds like your DH certainly would not have been found AAP eligible or made it into TJ, which is what we are talking about here....

Anonymous wrote:

In my mind, an important indicator of the problem is a general lack of interest in learning among students. IMHO, no matter what programs the county offer, very little will be changed unless, past grade 6, kids decide (or we entice them) to take a more active role in their own learning. We should work toward creating a culture of learning among students as we are building and refining academic programs. The latter will not be effective without the former.

Great point. It is akin to the "you can lead a horse to water but cannot make him drink" notion.

I totally agree. There have been measures in attempts to identify bright minority students with Young Scholars. They have to get into AAP or not in 2nd grade. The kid has to be motivated. The county can only do so much.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"PP you are referring to. My parents never prepped me for anything. I aced every exam I took as a young child. I then became a diligent student as I got older. I don't think it is parental persistence; it is individual persistence."

"I grew up in another state. I was in MG (mentally gifted) and took all honors in junior high and all honors/AP classes in high school."

WHO CARES??? Can we stop talking about you and get back to the NAACP complaint?

Certain minority groups are very underrepresented in AAP and TJ. I do not think anyone is suggesting that we "dumb down" any tests or lower any standards.

If there is a gap here, why does the gap exist? Several posts here point to 1)intelligence 2) interest 3) ambition or "individual persistence"

So are we saying that these minority groups lack these things?? As one PP noted the correlation between mother's educational attainment and child's academic success - I am sure there is also a correlation between parents' income and child's academic success.

Sooooo, do we care? Or do we still insist that the poor kids are just not smart, interested or ambitious enough and too bad for them?

I'm so sick of these race games. I grew up poor. My parents could barely speak English. I worked hard and did well in school. I'm Asian though so I supposedly don't count as a minority even though there are more Hispanics and blacks than Asians.

sigh....these "me, me, me", "I pulled myself up by own bootstraps" anecdotes are so lame and not helpful to the discussion.

It has nothing to do with me individually and everything to do with race and is relevant to the discussion.

Based on these boards, the main issue with AAP and TJ is that there are too many Asians (overrepresented in both AAP and TJ compared to their % of the total population) and not enough black/Hispanics in AAP/TJ. What everyone seems to want is less Asians in the program so that more other minorities can be in the program. My whole point is that Asians are a minority too.

Who is "everyone"? Certainly, the NAACP complaint does not state that there should be less Asians in these programs. The Asian population may well be a minority, but does not have a representation problem in AAP or TJ. Your whole point is that Asians are a minority too - ok. And? What kind of recognition are you looking for? Are you saying that if Asians can do it, black and Hispanics should be able to as well? There is a whole historical context of insitutional discrimination against blacks and Hispanics in the U.S. that is different than the history of Asians in the U.S. Of course, there are exceptions (the, "I overcame every obstacle and was successful kind of stories) for every group (low-income, black, Hispanic, Asian) and that is great, but there are obviously some challenges for the named minority groups in the case that do not exist for every group.

Yes, I am saying that if Asians can do it, blacks and Hispanics should be able to as well. Blacks have a history of discrimination in the US but African-Americans have no language barrier. The Spanish language is very similiar in phonics to the English language. Asian languages have significantly different grammar and a completely different alphabet. If Asian children (not all from well educated wealthy families) can come to the US, learn a new language and do fine, I don't see why African-Americans who were born here with English as their first language cannot keep up.

DH came to the states from China, had to learn English and did not ace all his classes in school. He worked at a restaurant. Eventually he learned the English language, got into a decent college, graduated top of his class in his ok college and got through med school. He did superior in med school when English became a non-factor. In the other years, English being a second language was a handicap. Now he's learning Spanish so he can communicate to his non-English speaking patients. It is a breeze learning Spanish compared to trying to learn English from Chinese.