Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 19:38     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
Who in the hell is forcing women to terminate pregnancies?! I'm 04/22/2012 09:14 and am very pro-choice but that doesn't mean I think women should be coerced or force to abort! Speak up where this is happening and I'm sure we can get DCUM to start a rally.

If, instead, your point is that women shouldn't terminate based on their perception that having a SN child is difficult and costly, well, I think everyone knows by now that my experience shows that it is difficult and it is costly. If I were to get support I'll be happy to join your chorus that it's not different than raising a typical child but, right now, that's just not true. It's very hard and while I love my kids and the experience has made me a better person, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Still waiting for those organizations people said would provide support to families like mine....

Well, from reading this thread it would seem that a lot of people feel it is a person's civic duty to rid the world of disabled kids by aborting. Just to eliminate kids from being a burden on everyone around them, of course. So PP do you wish you had known of your children's disabilities so you could have terminated them? How can we really make generalizations about all disabled kids being so horribly financially and emotionally draining that people should terminate when the types of disabilities a person can have are so variable.


I have NEVER asserted that people should terminate SN kids. I firmly believe that abortion is strictly a personal decision. What I have been vocal about is refuting that bullshit assertion that raising SN kids is not much different or more costly than typical kids. Maybe not for the wealthy but it is definitely different for those of us who aren’t.

Over the last few days, I've read every post on this thread. I can't recall a single instance where someone seriously advocated ridding the world of disabled kids. I've seen plenty of posters proclaiming that's what people are trying to do but I've not seen anyone advocating for it. I've also seen a lot of posts that if you don't think you can raise a SN kid that you shouldn't have kids at all. But, stating that it's our "civic duty to rid the world of disabled kids by aborting"? No, that' not what this thread has been about. Your repetition of this reminds me of the “death panel” bullshit the republicans spun to derail health care legislation.

Do I wish my I would have aborted my SN kids? I actually did have a choice and could have but my DH and I thought the better choice was to keep them. If I had to do it over again, one of them I would definitely not want to terminate. One of them, sometimes I wish I had. Yeah, I’m sure you’re horrified by that – flame away. I don’t care about your opinion. You’re not walking in my shoes, paying my bills or wiping my kid’s ass because he can’t do it for himself. Why shouldn’t someone spare themselves from what I’m going through? Why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and hook me up with someone who can provide us the assistance some say is readily available for families like mine? When you can make raising SN kids as easy as raising typical kids, I’ll listen to you. Until then, you have no credibility.


Way to tell it to these crazy asses. I admire your strength and honesty, PP. You have balls.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 18:26     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Who in the hell is forcing women to terminate pregnancies?! I'm 04/22/2012 09:14 and am very pro-choice but that doesn't mean I think women should be coerced or force to abort! Speak up where this is happening and I'm sure we can get DCUM to start a rally.

If, instead, your point is that women shouldn't terminate based on their perception that having a SN child is difficult and costly, well, I think everyone knows by now that my experience shows that it is difficult and it is costly. If I were to get support I'll be happy to join your chorus that it's not different than raising a typical child but, right now, that's just not true. It's very hard and while I love my kids and the experience has made me a better person, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Still waiting for those organizations people said would provide support to families like mine....

Well, from reading this thread it would seem that a lot of people feel it is a person's civic duty to rid the world of disabled kids by aborting. Just to eliminate kids from being a burden on everyone around them, of course. So PP do you wish you had known of your children's disabilities so you could have terminated them? How can we really make generalizations about all disabled kids being so horribly financially and emotionally draining that people should terminate when the types of disabilities a person can have are so variable.


I have NEVER asserted that people should terminate SN kids. I firmly believe that abortion is strictly a personal decision. What I have been vocal about is refuting that bullshit assertion that raising SN kids is not much different or more costly than typical kids. Maybe not for the wealthy but it is definitely different for those of us who aren’t.

Over the last few days, I've read every post on this thread. I can't recall a single instance where someone seriously advocated ridding the world of disabled kids. I've seen plenty of posters proclaiming that's what people are trying to do but I've not seen anyone advocating for it. I've also seen a lot of posts that if you don't think you can raise a SN kid that you shouldn't have kids at all. But, stating that it's our "civic duty to rid the world of disabled kids by aborting"? No, that' not what this thread has been about. Your repetition of this reminds me of the “death panel” bullshit the republicans spun to derail health care legislation.

Do I wish my I would have aborted my SN kids? I actually did have a choice and could have but my DH and I thought the better choice was to keep them. If I had to do it over again, one of them I would definitely not want to terminate. One of them, sometimes I wish I had. Yeah, I’m sure you’re horrified by that – flame away. I don’t care about your opinion. You’re not walking in my shoes, paying my bills or wiping my kid’s ass because he can’t do it for himself. Why shouldn’t someone spare themselves from what I’m going through? Why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and hook me up with someone who can provide us the assistance some say is readily available for families like mine? When you can make raising SN kids as easy as raising typical kids, I’ll listen to you. Until then, you have no credibility.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 18:24     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
We are having two different conversations here, and we all know it. You terminated a pregnancy with a child who had a condition that is essentially incompatible with life. Except for extreme examples, children with T18 die at, or shortly after birth. T21 and spina bifida are very different conditions, and thus the considerations are different.

And although your choice to terminate should definitely be respected, you should respect the choice of others not to terminate. The whole "martyr badge" bit makes it sound like you don't. It's essential to choice that not only should women not be forced to carry a pregnancy, but neither should they be forced to terminate. Many people who see a pregnancy like yours through to a different end aren't trying to be martyrs, they are just doing what they think is right, just like what you did. Both perspectives deserve sensitivity and respect.


Who in the hell is forcing women to terminate pregnancies?! I'm 04/22/2012 09:14 and am very pro-choice but that doesn't mean I think women should be coerced or force to abort! Speak up where this is happening and I'm sure we can get DCUM to start a rally.

If, instead, your point is that women shouldn't terminate based on their perception that having a SN child is difficult and costly, well, I think everyone knows by now that my experience shows that it is difficult and it is costly. If I were to get support I'll be happy to join your chorus that it's not different than raising a typical child but, right now, that's just not true. It's very hard and while I love my kids and the experience has made me a better person, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Still waiting for those organizations people said would provide support to families like mine.....


Well, from reading this thread it would seem that a lot of people feel it is a person's civic duty to rid the world of disabled kids by aborting. Just to eliminate kids from being a burden on everyone around them, of course. So PP do you wish you had known of your children's disabilities so you could have terminated them? How can we really make generalizations about all disabled kids being so horribly financially and emotionally draining that people should terminate when the types of disabilities a person can have are so variable.


That is why, PP this is a complicated issue and such decision to terminate or not should be discussed with a doctor and the family involved. None of your business how anyone see's it, interprets the information they receive and what they do with it.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 17:58     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
Who in the hell is forcing women to terminate pregnancies?! I'm 04/22/2012 09:14 and am very pro-choice but that doesn't mean I think women should be coerced or force to abort! Speak up where this is happening and I'm sure we can get DCUM to start a rally.


You have no idea. Have YOU ever faced an "incompatible with life" diagnosis? You have a lot to say about raising SN kids (and I don't question your perspective), but you just have no idea about receving this type of diagnosis and what happens after that. You just don't.


I haven't had an "incompatible with life" diagnosis but I had 4 CSVs and genetic counseling. Never, not once, did anyone pressure me to terminate. The doctors were clear on what challenges we might face but that wasn't pressure, that was not sugar coating the reality as some on this thread have been doing. The doctors/genetic counselors did a pretty good job in describing the challenges but that still didn't sufficiently prepare us for what we're going through. If you consider someone telling you the likely impacts of your decision as 'coercion' or 'pressuring' you to terminate then we're just going have to disagree.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 17:30     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Who in the hell is forcing women to terminate pregnancies?! I'm 04/22/2012 09:14 and am very pro-choice but that doesn't mean I think women should be coerced or force to abort! Speak up where this is happening and I'm sure we can get DCUM to start a rally.


You have no idea. Have YOU ever faced an "incompatible with life" diagnosis? You have a lot to say about raising SN kids (and I don't question your perspective), but you just have no idea about receving this type of diagnosis and what happens after that. You just don't.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 17:18     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
We are having two different conversations here, and we all know it. You terminated a pregnancy with a child who had a condition that is essentially incompatible with life. Except for extreme examples, children with T18 die at, or shortly after birth. T21 and spina bifida are very different conditions, and thus the considerations are different.

And although your choice to terminate should definitely be respected, you should respect the choice of others not to terminate. The whole "martyr badge" bit makes it sound like you don't. It's essential to choice that not only should women not be forced to carry a pregnancy, but neither should they be forced to terminate. Many people who see a pregnancy like yours through to a different end aren't trying to be martyrs, they are just doing what they think is right, just like what you did. Both perspectives deserve sensitivity and respect.


Who in the hell is forcing women to terminate pregnancies?! I'm 04/22/2012 09:14 and am very pro-choice but that doesn't mean I think women should be coerced or force to abort! Speak up where this is happening and I'm sure we can get DCUM to start a rally.

If, instead, your point is that women shouldn't terminate based on their perception that having a SN child is difficult and costly, well, I think everyone knows by now that my experience shows that it is difficult and it is costly. If I were to get support I'll be happy to join your chorus that it's not different than raising a typical child but, right now, that's just not true. It's very hard and while I love my kids and the experience has made me a better person, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Still waiting for those organizations people said would provide support to families like mine.....


Well, from reading this thread it would seem that a lot of people feel it is a person's civic duty to rid the world of disabled kids by aborting. Just to eliminate kids from being a burden on everyone around them, of course. So PP do you wish you had known of your children's disabilities so you could have terminated them? How can we really make generalizations about all disabled kids being so horribly financially and emotionally draining that people should terminate when the types of disabilities a person can have are so variable.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 17:12     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
I know what I would do if I were in that situation, but I don't feel that I have the right to judge anyone for whatever decision they make.

Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 17:06     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
We are having two different conversations here, and we all know it. You terminated a pregnancy with a child who had a condition that is essentially incompatible with life. Except for extreme examples, children with T18 die at, or shortly after birth. T21 and spina bifida are very different conditions, and thus the considerations are different.

And although your choice to terminate should definitely be respected, you should respect the choice of others not to terminate. The whole "martyr badge" bit makes it sound like you don't. It's essential to choice that not only should women not be forced to carry a pregnancy, but neither should they be forced to terminate. Many people who see a pregnancy like yours through to a different end aren't trying to be martyrs, they are just doing what they think is right, just like what you did. Both perspectives deserve sensitivity and respect.


Who in the hell is forcing women to terminate pregnancies?! I'm 04/22/2012 09:14 and am very pro-choice but that doesn't mean I think women should be coerced or force to abort! Speak up where this is happening and I'm sure we can get DCUM to start a rally.

If, instead, your point is that women shouldn't terminate based on their perception that having a SN child is difficult and costly, well, I think everyone knows by now that my experience shows that it is difficult and it is costly. If I were to get support I'll be happy to join your chorus that it's not different than raising a typical child but, right now, that's just not true. It's very hard and while I love my kids and the experience has made me a better person, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Still waiting for those organizations people said would provide support to families like mine.....
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 14:45     Subject: s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
I posted before. I did have a choice. I knew from the moment my doctor explained the sonogram, said my baby would need many surgeries, would never be normal, and would always need a lot of help. I don't want to get into specifics but the fact that my baby would always have lot of pain, never look like other children, never be independent and yet still be aware of everything--that was something I didn't want him to endure.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 14:34     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
This thread is about the decision when you find out a baby's condition in utero. We all recognize that special needs can be arrived at many ways. This discussion does not discount the hard road that parents of special needs children go through, not matter how those special needs arise.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 14:26     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:Not everyone knows before birth that they are going to have an SN child....wearing the martyr badge is not always one's decision to make. Autism, ADHD, cerebral palsy, traumatic brain injury, stroke, anoxia...all surprises.



Of course not, I think PP just meant to say that it is terribly difficult to choose either way, and each choice holds serious consequences, when the information IS available.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 14:00     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Not everyone knows before birth that they are going to have an SN child....wearing the martyr badge is not always one's decision to make. Autism, ADHD, cerebral palsy, traumatic brain injury, stroke, anoxia...all surprises.

Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 13:54     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
11:31 here. Let me clarify.

1. I must apologize. I think any of us that receives such bad news can have the martyr badge. I do not expect anyone else to choose the same way I did. I do expect those who do choose to go through to also respect my decision. I feel like the OP expected me to act like her sister. And more frustrating is the former presidential candidate Rick Santorum, whose youngest is T18, and he does act like a martyr that expects all to follow his lead. sorry to confuse the two.

2. I actually count my blessings that we didn't have a diagnosis of a condition that was, for lack of a better term, "compatible with life.". It would have been a tougher decision. This baby actually had a sex chromo anomaly as well. Had the baby just had that, or t21 or sb, I am not sure what I would have done. It very likely DH and I would have disagreed.

3. The ability to terminate needs to stay legal just because of the distinctions in para 2 unless we want to get on the slippery slopemof having the law, and not medicine, define the difference between what is and what isn't compatible with life. This is where a doctor and a patient are the best to assess what is right.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 13:49     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:^^^^^calling a person who doesn't terminate a "martyr" involves a judgement, wouldn't you agree?


I would agree, PP. What I am trying to say is the moms who are judging in my opinion come across as trying to be martyrs when they compare themselves to other moms who have chosen a different path for themselves and their families. They don't come from the position of respecting that the sacrifices they have decided to make are not what others have chosen for their families. What I hear them say is, if I can handle a special needs child (severe special needs), so can you and you should because aborting a SN child is so wrong, and they are people too with a lot to offer, how dare you think otherwise..so on and so forth.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2012 13:33     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
^^^^^calling a person who doesn't terminate a "martyr" involves a judgement, wouldn't you agree?