Anonymous wrote:I mean are there tons of people who WANT to dedicate the next 40 yrs of their lives to ear infections and having to make small talk with 4 year olds??

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those who want to do pediatrics but the money is a turn off or a non starter in the case of those with a few hundred k in debt, would they not just do neonatology? Wouldn't that be a high paid specialty that still gets you around kids and away from adults? Or is it somehow not high paid?

I mean are there tons of people who WANT to dedicate the next 40 yrs of their lives to ear infections and having to make small talk with 4 year olds??

I’m not a physician so wondering why pediatrics pay lower? Why less love for the poor pediatrician? I always appreciated our pediatrician with our three kids.

1. Pediatricians skew more heavily female than other specialties.
2. Their practice is less driven by procedures, which is how American doctors make money.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a quip about lawyers a few pages back, and being that I am one, I do feel the need to highlight that many people don’t even get to BigLaw and if they do, they don’t last long. BigLaw is generally reserved for graduates from top schools and the valedictorian of lower ranked schools. I was shocked when a friend from UVA Law told me she had multiple unemployed classmates.

I lasted in BigLaw for 6 years after graduating from HYS - well past the typical stint of 2-3 years. I paid back my loans, bought a house and furnished it, and piled up savings. I knew going in those would be my highest earning years. Now I make $200k in house and here’s the thing - I still work hard. The law isn’t an easy job.

I used to think doctors just had it made. $300k+ guaranteed for life! Now I see all the trade offs. Not making any real money until you are 30-35. Facing down $300k in loans at that point. Maybe moving to an undesirable suburban or rural location because they’ll pay you more and hey, maybe that’s a temporary sacrifice worth making. Challenges with making partner etc. Some specialties are better than others (Derm, ortho, surgery), but it’s not like everyone gets those.

I guess it just seems to me like no one has much of guarantee anymore, though doctors have it better than others. I look at my MD/JD/MBA friends and at 35, I can’t tell you that one path was necessarily more financially lucrative than the other. if anything the biz and legal folks had time to pay down loans before having kids and buying houses. The docs will have to tackle both sinualtenously. Maybe at 45 they’ll pull ahead? And even that probably depends heavily on the specialty and location.

I see where you are coming from but it completely depends on your speciality. I agree with you if you are talking peds but most doctors marry other doctors and most doctors now are specialized. The worst part is the training but if you are looking to specialize the average salary is above 250k and you make that money for the rest of your life. The problem is that medicine is stressful and leads to burn out but I wouldn’t feel bad for everyone in medicine. Many of the dual physician families can make over 500k easy.

Anonymous wrote:There was a quip about lawyers a few pages back, and being that I am one, I do feel the need to highlight that many people don’t even get to BigLaw and if they do, they don’t last long. BigLaw is generally reserved for graduates from top schools and the valedictorian of lower ranked schools. I was shocked when a friend from UVA Law told me she had multiple unemployed classmates.

I lasted in BigLaw for 6 years after graduating from HYS - well past the typical stint of 2-3 years. I paid back my loans, bought a house and furnished it, and piled up savings. I knew going in those would be my highest earning years. Now I make $200k in house and here’s the thing - I still work hard. The law isn’t an easy job.

I used to think doctors just had it made. $300k+ guaranteed for life! Now I see all the trade offs. Not making any real money until you are 30-35. Facing down $300k in loans at that point. Maybe moving to an undesirable suburban or rural location because they’ll pay you more and hey, maybe that’s a temporary sacrifice worth making. Challenges with making partner etc. Some specialties are better than others (Derm, ortho, surgery), but it’s not like everyone gets those.

I guess it just seems to me like no one has much of guarantee anymore, though doctors have it better than others. I look at my MD/JD/MBA friends and at 35, I can’t tell you that one path was necessarily more financially lucrative than the other. if anything the biz and legal folks had time to pay down loans before having kids and buying houses. The docs will have to tackle both sinualtenously. Maybe at 45 they’ll pull ahead? And even that probably depends heavily on the specialty and location.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those who want to do pediatrics but the money is a turn off or a non starter in the case of those with a few hundred k in debt, would they not just do neonatology? Wouldn't that be a high paid specialty that still gets you around kids and away from adults? Or is it somehow not high paid?

I mean are there tons of people who WANT to dedicate the next 40 yrs of their lives to ear infections and having to make small talk with 4 year olds??

I’m not a physician so wondering why pediatrics pay lower? Why less love for the poor pediatrician? I always appreciated our pediatrician with our three kids.

1. Pediatricians skew more heavily female than other specialties.
2. Their practice is less driven by procedures, which is how American doctors make money.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those who want to do pediatrics but the money is a turn off or a non starter in the case of those with a few hundred k in debt, would they not just do neonatology? Wouldn't that be a high paid specialty that still gets you around kids and away from adults? Or is it somehow not high paid?

I mean are there tons of people who WANT to dedicate the next 40 yrs of their lives to ear infections and having to make small talk with 4 year olds??

I’m not a physician so wondering why pediatrics pay lower? Why less love for the poor pediatrician? I always appreciated our pediatrician with our three kids.

1. Pediatricians skew more heavily female than other specialties.
2. Their practice is less driven by procedures, which is how American doctors make money.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those who want to do pediatrics but the money is a turn off or a non starter in the case of those with a few hundred k in debt, would they not just do neonatology? Wouldn't that be a high paid specialty that still gets you around kids and away from adults? Or is it somehow not high paid?

I mean are there tons of people who WANT to dedicate the next 40 yrs of their lives to ear infections and having to make small talk with 4 year olds??

I’m not a physician so wondering why pediatrics pay lower? Why less love for the poor pediatrician? I always appreciated our pediatrician with our three kids.

Anonymous wrote:For those who want to do pediatrics but the money is a turn off or a non starter in the case of those with a few hundred k in debt, would they not just do neonatology? Wouldn't that be a high paid specialty that still gets you around kids and away from adults? Or is it somehow not high paid?

I mean are there tons of people who WANT to dedicate the next 40 yrs of their lives to ear infections and having to make small talk with 4 year olds??

Anonymous wrote:For those who want to do pediatrics but the money is a turn off or a non starter in the case of those with a few hundred k in debt, would they not just do neonatology? Wouldn't that be a high paid specialty that still gets you around kids and away from adults? Or is it somehow not high paid?

I mean are there tons of people who WANT to dedicate the next 40 yrs of their lives to ear infections and having to make small talk with 4 year olds??

Anonymous wrote:For those who want to do pediatrics but the money is a turn off or a non starter in the case of those with a few hundred k in debt, would they not just do neonatology? Wouldn't that be a high paid specialty that still gets you around kids and away from adults? Or is it somehow not high paid?

I mean are there tons of people who WANT to dedicate the next 40 yrs of their lives to ear infections and having to make small talk with 4 year olds??

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is true for life in general, not specific to medicine. Those working harder to get into top tier schools, be it law, medicine, athletics, etc will have an easier path to professional opportunities vs. those with lower schooling pedigree will have a rougher path.....

This is simply not true. *All* of my degrees (undergrad and multiple grad degrees) are HYPS, and I have no delusions that this is 100% due to my merit alone. I did work hard, but I also had excellent private pre-K-12 education (paid for by my interventional cardiologist father and neonatologist mother) that made it much easier to get into a highly-selective college...and the opportunities I had there made it easier to get into a highly-selective grad program. I agree that people sometimes make choices that limit their future opportunity, but it's arrogant and ignorant to pretend that everyone has the same opportunity to begin with.

As for the discussion about relative salaries within various sub-specialties, the real discussion should be around whether they are fair. Yes, my dad is a good doctor who worked hard to become an interventional cardiologist. This includes studying late nights to get the interventional certification, which was introduced after he was trained, while he had his own private practice to run and three small kids at home. But I know pediatricians and internists who work just as hard as he does and just as good doctors, who earn much less. Do we really only want the second tier med students treating our kids? Luckily, that's not the current situation...but mocking pediatricians as being less capable or as having made bad life choices is ridiculous. We should be more concerned about how to make sure pediatricians are paid adequately to make it an attractive specialty.

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Anonymous wrote:All of the MDs should make more than these overpaid attorneys running around here. Thinking of attorneys in large firms and independent financial regulatory agencies.

And more than all of the hedge fund jerks too.

Gov't lawyers top out at what 225-240k if you're at a financial regulator? How many drs do you know or do you see on this thread making less than 240k? The ones who've posted here making less than 240k all seem to work part time so presumably make about 1/2 of a regular salary. I feel like you'd have to affirmatively TRY to be a dr. and make less than 250k -- like go part time, go to some underserved community clinic gig in the northeast etc. Though I do agree there's no reason for drs. to be making less than a quarter million.

You don’t sound very familiar with salaries. Like at all. Underserved gigs are where they pay well. Tons of doctors in this area making less than $250 and working full time. What do you think pediatricians make?
Military drs top out at just under $200K (my husband is one in what would be extremely lucrative out of the military). So comparatively still making less than government lawyers. And, we’d love to get out. Being general practice or pediatrics in the military is sometimes better pay than civilian, because their pay scale is based more on rank. Being one of the higher paid specialities is far less in the military.

I just don’t agree with this at all. We’ll have to agree to disagree. Basically you’re saying if you didn’t choose a high paying specialty like surgery, you’re trying make under $250K?

Basically -- yes. These numbers aren't a secret. No one is saying everyone has to be a surgeon. But if you affirmatively choose things like pediatrics or family med (and know that you are not ok moving to places like the Dakotas where you can choose those things and still make $$$ due to lack of supply; and know that you are from the northeast and will stay there), then yeah you are CHOOSING to make under 250k. You didn't have to be a surgeon as that skillset and that life isn't for everyone, but you could have just as easily gone done many many other higher paying roads -- anything from cardiology to nephrology to optho to many other things.

You are clueless. Like someone said MANY, probably most, drs are making less than 250. Peds, internal med, family practice..are there areas of practice with the most physicians and they are making less than 250. Specialties have very limited spots for training. If you want to make a million per yr as a spinal surgeon you better be in the top of your class and have some family connections.

+1
Not everyone can be in the specialities. Nor should they be.

This. Family of drs. here and this "argument" comes up a lot. My sister went to the highest ranked med school among all of us -- UPenn -- usually ranks in the top 5. So for her and all of her classmates there, honestly it wasn't challenging at all to end up in a specialty; sure not everyone got there #1 choice specialty as that would depend on scores/boards etc. and frankly not everyone can be a surgeon or cardiologist, but if you were open about it, you COULD carve out your career in such a way that you would end up in a specialty and NOT end up in one of the lower paid primary care areas like peds, family med, or internal med (w/ no subsequent fellowship to make you a specialist - rather just doing IM and being a primary care doc).

So she is very unsympathetic to another sibling and several of our cousins (I went research track so no dog in this fight) -- who complain about salaries being low on the east coast + high student loan payments. She says the same types of things as the PP -- well you CHOSE to go into pediatrics etc. Reality is though for those going to regular med schools -- not top 5-10 in the country -- and working hard just to do average at those schools (so outside the top 10-15%), the vast majority of the residency spots are going to be in peds, family med, and internal med. The doors aren't wide open for you to be a cardiologist after your prestigious IM residency at a big name hospital just because you want to be. So yeah it's choices but it's also about your own abilities/grades/potential and the doors opened by your school and those doors do vary across schools. I think sometimes the people coming out of Hopkins, Penn, etc. for whom match is fairly easy as they write their own ticket just don't inherently get that -- because they and ALL of their classmates essentially wrote their own ticket. So I guess the lesson is -- if it's important to you/your kid to make $$$ and end up in a specialty, only go to med school if you can get into a top 20 because outside of that there are no "guarantees"; you can go to a lesser school, blow boards etc. out of the water and end up a nephrologist, but there's a better than even chance that you end up in the middle of the pack and in pediatrics.

But then -- isn't that what people say about law/b school -- only go if you're going to get into the very very top bc that's what "guarantees" the $$$ (as much as anything in life is a guarantee)?

100% Disagree. I know plenty who are in the coveted "specialties" who graduated from lower tier US med schools with some who actually "earned" their med degrees overseas (Caribbean, India, Ireland, etc). My own daughter graduated from MCV med school few years back and currently finishing up a Optho surgery fellowship at a coveted clinic.

I get what PP is saying and working in this space, I largely agree with "writing your own ticket" out of certain schools more than the rest.

Sure there are plenty of MCV grads and the like who get into optho etc. ,but it's not writing your ticket the way it is for Hopkins or Columbia or Harvard grads. Those at lower tier schools are working HARD to stay at the top to get those spots, whereas those at the top tier schools (some of which have no grades) are just not having to kill themselves the same way for the same spots. Don't believe me -- pull up a residency list from a top program in a top specialty. Guaranteed if that class has say 20 people (which is big for upper end specialties), at least 14 will be from ivys/UCSF/Hopkins/Mayo/etc. 5 will be from the "regular" med schools like MCV, UMDNJ or wherever, and 1 will be a foreign medical grad. And let's be real these programs are now having to think about diversity after years and years of all the residents in an entire class looking exactly the same; so then they use those 6 other spots to show some diversity as well . . . . I work in this space, yes it is more "strategic" than you think. I'm not saying your kid CAN'T go to MCV and end up a tippy top cardiologist, I'm just saying the road will be harder for that kid than the kid who went to Harvard and wants to be a tippy top cardiologist. Frankly more credit to your kid for rising to the top when the odds weren't all stacked in their favor.

This is true for life in general, not specific to medicine. Those working harder to get into top tier schools, be it law, medicine, athletics, etc will have an easier path to professional opportunities vs. those with lower schooling pedigree will have a rougher path.....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is true for life in general, not specific to medicine. Those working harder to get into top tier schools, be it law, medicine, athletics, etc will have an easier path to professional opportunities vs. those with lower schooling pedigree will have a rougher path.....

This is simply not true. *All* of my degrees (undergrad and multiple grad degrees) are HYPS, and I have no delusions that this is 100% due to my merit alone. I did work hard, but I also had excellent private pre-K-12 education (paid for by my interventional cardiologist father and neonatologist mother) that made it much easier to get into a highly-selective college...and the opportunities I had there made it easier to get into a highly-selective grad program. I agree that people sometimes make choices that limit their future opportunity, but it's arrogant and ignorant to pretend that everyone has the same opportunity to begin with.

As for the discussion about relative salaries within various sub-specialties, the real discussion should be around whether they are fair. Yes, my dad is a good doctor who worked hard to become an interventional cardiologist. This includes studying late nights to get the interventional certification, which was introduced after he was trained, while he had his own private practice to run and three small kids at home. But I know pediatricians and internists who work just as hard as he does and just as good doctors, who earn much less. Do we really only want the second tier med students treating our kids? Luckily, that's not the current situation...but mocking pediatricians as being less capable or as having made bad life choices is ridiculous. We should be more concerned about how to make sure pediatricians are paid adequately to make it an attractive specialty.