The problem is the primary system. We need open primaries to stop extremists from being nominated every time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A better question: where are the liberals who have winsome arguments and know how to win elections?

Where are the liberals who know how to avoid hitching their party to things that the electorate abhors. Where did they go?

Not seeing them anywhere.

So the problem is isn't "liberal policies or politics" but rather the center and left have allowed the right to frame EVERY issue in such a way that the right sounds reasonable when the reality is so different. The majority of the country agrees:
-abortion should be legal and safe in the first trimester and then thereafter under conditions
-sensible gun laws to keep weapons out of the hands of felons and people with mental illness
-taxation is ok if the money is well managed and spent
-federal responsibility for clean air and water, safe food and drugs are a good thing
-NATO and our western alliances have made lives better for Americans since the end of WW2 and they should remain intact

The above issues used to be consensus between both parties and now it is only one party that shares those values eventhough over 65% and in some cases over 85% share the above positions. But when the right is able to hammer and weaponize: 'states rights" "second Amendment" CRT, DEI, Defund the Police, Pro-Life as slogans that are either for their position or against the other side, and the nuance to debate and policy is lost, we end up with the lowest common denominator.

It isn’t framing. The problem with your bolded list is that:

1. In Democrat controlled states unfettered abortion access is real. Not the European-style consensus you describe.

2. If they had the power Democrats absolutely would disarm the country.

3. Federal responsibility for clean air and water is great until overreach happens like happened with the navigable waters case or when environmental policy is used as an economic hammer (the clean power plan).

4. Our nato allies have absolutely been free riders (Obama was saying as much 12 years ago). And Ukraine is not a nato ally. And it hasn’t been part of a western alliance, either.

This is not about framing but about substance. Trump just usually picks the eaiswr to frame side.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ideology is dead in America. Todays Democrats stand for nothing at all except performance theater - pink dresses and paddles, anyone? Or how about Black Lives Matter Plaza? Or Trans reading hour at the library? Meanwhile, when was the last time a Democrat talked about health care? Or the environment? They don't because there is nothing there. Anti-Trump theater is the only thing that animates Democrats.

And Republicans are even worse. It's nothing but a cult of personality. There's no ideological underpinning anywhere. Just blind submission to an absurd narcissist in makeup. It's not even about returning to 19th Century Great Power politics since Republicans are doing everything possible to destroy America's national security. Republicans are beyond pathetic with their frightening devotion to a reality tv character.

So both traditional liberals and conservatives are politically homeless these days. I'd venture to guess at least 60 percent of the country hates both parties.

As a liberal leftist I agree with this. The problem is that I don’t think there is much consensus between my core views (raising my taxes is ok with me if the money goes to helping others and not war / defense spending and no one should make decisions over my body) and traditional conservatives (constitution above all, anti choice, Russia and Communism bad in all instances, let’s spend more on war, taxes must be cut, and we need to balance the budget by cutting services to people).

Maybe we can agree that some programs designed to help people are either not working or inefficient? I’m ok with reevaluating but I’m not okay with letting a kid go hungry or not lending a helping hand to an older adult at risk of homelessness (and I do agree there has been too much silly language like “unhoused” rather than homeless or “pregnant people”. And I am also not okay with support for wars in cases where the US is not directly attacked (and that in those cases we attack the attacker NOT an uninvolved country like Iraq).

Do you still strongly believe that “no one should make decisions over my body” when it comes to vaccines? Or only when you want to be allowed to physically cut and rip apart a baby that’s growing in your womb?

Yes in fact I do. The issue of vaccines is more complex because as we've seen in TX the unvaccinated impact more than just their own lives so I understand vaccine mandates. However, at the end of the day speaking for myself I still believe in individual's right to choice.

I just can’t understand people who want to force someone to inject something into their body to ostensibly try to save a newborn over here, while over there they are fighting to allow someone to rip apart a baby that’s about to be born but still a few days to go, even when there aren’t necessarily any medical reasons for doing it. How can a baby only have value after it comes out but not the day before?

I’m glad that you see the hypocrisy anyway.

FWIW I agree that neither abortion nor vaccines should be politicized. They should both be medical decisions that are made privately. I do think that anyone who aborts a baby after 20 weeks without a serious genetic or life risking medical issue should be sterilized at the same time though. It seems reasonable to prevent it from happening again. Democrats defending abortion in all cases constantly claim that this “never happens” so nobody should have a problem with that policy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a traditional, pro-family values, pro-America, church-going conservative.

While I find Trump’s blunt, NYC-style of talk rather distasteful, and no one admires his family history of infidelity and divorce, his policies are the opposite of what you progressives have put in place over the THREE (3) terms of President Obama.

And let’s stop pretending it was demented Biden directing the country; Obama ran things from behind the curtain.

You cheered on the invasion of our country, demonized our police, and rammed through a truly weird transgender agenda in our public schools, which even my gay friends find really weird.

BTW - I do agree with you progressives in favor war in Ukraine until victory; I want to see Putin’s evil-empire 2.0 completely collapse because I have family in Europe, and I know there will never be peace or real security in Europe until the Putin / puppet Medvedev regime collapses. Putin can’t be trusted.

I oddly mostly agree with you. Things got weird after the pandemic, there was a lot of shrinking of opposing opinions bc the kids/youth had us all scared that they would finally crack . I d k. Things got really, weird really fast.

Thanks. Good to know there are a few like-minded people still on DCUMAD.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Traditional anti-war Democrats are now MAGA.

One issue I am with Trump
The Ukraine war.
When did the democrats become neocon?

Exactly.

Democrats did not cheer for it want the war to begin. They wan(Ed) Ukraine to prevail. They know the consequences if Russia keeps up incursions into that part of the world. Non maga Republicans know it too.

Not wanting Ukraine to surrender is not the same as being a hawk, no matter how you try to spin it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ideology is dead in America. Todays Democrats stand for nothing at all except performance theater - pink dresses and paddles, anyone? Or how about Black Lives Matter Plaza? Or Trans reading hour at the library? Meanwhile, when was the last time a Democrat talked about health care? Or the environment? They don't because there is nothing there. Anti-Trump theater is the only thing that animates Democrats.

And Republicans are even worse. It's nothing but a cult of personality. There's no ideological underpinning anywhere. Just blind submission to an absurd narcissist in makeup. It's not even about returning to 19th Century Great Power politics since Republicans are doing everything possible to destroy America's national security. Republicans are beyond pathetic with their frightening devotion to a reality tv character.

So both traditional liberals and conservatives are politically homeless these days. I'd venture to guess at least 60 percent of the country hates both parties.

As a liberal leftist I agree with this. The problem is that I don’t think there is much consensus between my core views (raising my taxes is ok with me if the money goes to helping others and not war / defense spending and no one should make decisions over my body) and traditional conservatives (constitution above all, anti choice, Russia and Communism bad in all instances, let’s spend more on war, taxes must be cut, and we need to balance the budget by cutting services to people).

Maybe we can agree that some programs designed to help people are either not working or inefficient? I’m ok with reevaluating but I’m not okay with letting a kid go hungry or not lending a helping hand to an older adult at risk of homelessness (and I do agree there has been too much silly language like “unhoused” rather than homeless or “pregnant people”. And I am also not okay with support for wars in cases where the US is not directly attacked (and that in those cases we attack the attacker NOT an uninvolved country like Iraq).

Do you still strongly believe that “no one should make decisions over my body” when it comes to vaccines? Or only when you want to be allowed to physically cut and rip apart a baby that’s growing in your womb?

Yes in fact I do. The issue of vaccines is more complex because as we've seen in TX the unvaccinated impact more than just their own lives so I understand vaccine mandates. However, at the end of the day speaking for myself I still believe in individual's right to choice.

DP and it would be so much easier to tolerate the choice regarding vaccines if it were not politicized and a virtual signal, but based on real information and personal health.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Traditional anti-war Democrats are now MAGA.

One issue I am with Trump
The Ukraine war.
When did the democrats become neocon?

Exactly.

If you two don’t understand the difference between invading Iraq and Afghanistan and helping Ukraine defend itself, you should probably stop voting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Traditional anti-war Democrats are now MAGA.

One issue I am with Trump
The Ukraine war.
When did the democrats become neocon?

Exactly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ideology is dead in America. Todays Democrats stand for nothing at all except performance theater - pink dresses and paddles, anyone? Or how about Black Lives Matter Plaza? Or Trans reading hour at the library? Meanwhile, when was the last time a Democrat talked about health care? Or the environment? They don't because there is nothing there. Anti-Trump theater is the only thing that animates Democrats.

And Republicans are even worse. It's nothing but a cult of personality. There's no ideological underpinning anywhere. Just blind submission to an absurd narcissist in makeup. It's not even about returning to 19th Century Great Power politics since Republicans are doing everything possible to destroy America's national security. Republicans are beyond pathetic with their frightening devotion to a reality tv character.

So both traditional liberals and conservatives are politically homeless these days. I'd venture to guess at least 60 percent of the country hates both parties.

As a liberal leftist I agree with this. The problem is that I don’t think there is much consensus between my core views (raising my taxes is ok with me if the money goes to helping others and not war / defense spending and no one should make decisions over my body) and traditional conservatives (constitution above all, anti choice, Russia and Communism bad in all instances, let’s spend more on war, taxes must be cut, and we need to balance the budget by cutting services to people).

Maybe we can agree that some programs designed to help people are either not working or inefficient? I’m ok with reevaluating but I’m not okay with letting a kid go hungry or not lending a helping hand to an older adult at risk of homelessness (and I do agree there has been too much silly language like “unhoused” rather than homeless or “pregnant people”. And I am also not okay with support for wars in cases where the US is not directly attacked (and that in those cases we attack the attacker NOT an uninvolved country like Iraq).

Do you still strongly believe that “no one should make decisions over my body” when it comes to vaccines? Or only when you want to be allowed to physically cut and rip apart a baby that’s growing in your womb?

Yes in fact I do. The issue of vaccines is more complex because as we've seen in TX the unvaccinated impact more than just their own lives so I understand vaccine mandates. However, at the end of the day speaking for myself I still believe in individual's right to choice.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Traditional anti-war Democrats are now MAGA.

One issue I am with Trump
The Ukraine war.
When did the democrats become neocon?

I’m not against finding peace for the Ukrainians, but I’m also not for helping Russia. That outburst at the meeting, calling Zelensky a dictator, and swiftly cutting off US intelligence and aid to Ukraine prior to any ceasefires or agreements tells me that’s not what Trump is about.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a traditional, pro-family values, pro-America, church-going conservative.

While I find Trump’s blunt, NYC-style of talk rather distasteful, and no one admires his family history of infidelity and divorce, his policies are the opposite of what you progressives have put in place over the THREE (3) terms of President Obama.

And let’s stop pretending it was demented Biden directing the country; Obama ran things from behind the curtain.

You cheered on the invasion of our country, demonized our police, and rammed through a truly weird transgender agenda in our public schools, which even my gay friends find really weird.

BTW - I do agree with you progressives in favor war in Ukraine until victory; I want to see Putin’s evil-empire 2.0 completely collapse because I have family in Europe, and I know there will never be peace or real security in Europe until the Putin / puppet Medvedev regime collapses. Putin can’t be trusted.

And I meant to add: you created a multi-billion dollar DEI or DEIA “industry.” The fact is:

DEI = racism. I cannot and will not support racism; will you?

DEI means I have an equal chance at landing the same job for the same pay as my male counterparts.

Do you trust Bloomberg news?

- 94% of jobs recently given EXCLUSIVELY to BIPOC Americans.

Does 94% given to ONE group sound like there was (as you put it) an “equal chance” in hiring? Read it yourself:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/#:~:text=While%20the%20biggest%20shifts%20in,went%20to%20workers%20of%20color.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/#:~:text=While%20the%20biggest%20shifts%20in,went%20to%20workers%20of%20color.

Yeah, so why don’t you provider the full detail? Most of these jobs for BIPOC hires were lower paying, entry level. The managerial hires were still a majority white. Moreover, white people still dominate higher paying / executive jobs.

Don’t worry, white people still have the advantage.

Not to mention that, when you are acknowledging and trying to recitfy a past injustice (not hiring people of color), well, yes the new hires are obviously going to be people of color. That was the point.

Fight racism with more racism.

And people wonder why young white males took a hard right.

I guess they should just "be cool" about being punished for stuff that happened before they were born. That's not realistic.

Privilege galore above. The "bad things happened before I was born" whining is so old.

No one's saying white males should "be cool" about "being punished." Punished how? Because you don't get preferential treatment? Is it best to just continue letting white males have unearned advantages over everybody else because they're white and male?

White males have been explicitly discriminated against in college admissions for the past several decades PP.

There are also numerous examples of them being explicitly denied roles in corporations because the corporation was seeking “diversity”.

I know that you are in favor of this discrimination but you no better than the racist who discriminates against black people or sexist who discriminates against women or homophobe who discriminates against gay people. Take a look in the mirror.

Umm there are not numerous real examples of the above. The reality is college is more competitive. Like it or not there are plenty of non white males who are just as qualified or more so to attend schools. It’s not discrimination that a university tries to build a diverse class instead of just mostly white males. Further college admissions is. It just grades and test scores. Those alone don’t constitute merit.

Females now make up a greater portion of those admit to university and yet they are not a greater portion of those in executive and C-Suite positions. Why is that?

This idea that finally leveling the playing field and balancing the scales is somehow discriminatory to males and in particular white males is ridiculous.

Anonymous wrote:Traditional anti-war Democrats are now MAGA.

One issue I am with Trump
The Ukraine war.
When did the democrats become neocon?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ideology is dead in America. Todays Democrats stand for nothing at all except performance theater - pink dresses and paddles, anyone? Or how about Black Lives Matter Plaza? Or Trans reading hour at the library? Meanwhile, when was the last time a Democrat talked about health care? Or the environment? They don't because there is nothing there. Anti-Trump theater is the only thing that animates Democrats.

And Republicans are even worse. It's nothing but a cult of personality. There's no ideological underpinning anywhere. Just blind submission to an absurd narcissist in makeup. It's not even about returning to 19th Century Great Power politics since Republicans are doing everything possible to destroy America's national security. Republicans are beyond pathetic with their frightening devotion to a reality tv character.

So both traditional liberals and conservatives are politically homeless these days. I'd venture to guess at least 60 percent of the country hates both parties.

As a liberal leftist I agree with this. The problem is that I don’t think there is much consensus between my core views (raising my taxes is ok with me if the money goes to helping others and not war / defense spending and no one should make decisions over my body) and traditional conservatives (constitution above all, anti choice, Russia and Communism bad in all instances, let’s spend more on war, taxes must be cut, and we need to balance the budget by cutting services to people).

Maybe we can agree that some programs designed to help people are either not working or inefficient? I’m ok with reevaluating but I’m not okay with letting a kid go hungry or not lending a helping hand to an older adult at risk of homelessness (and I do agree there has been too much silly language like “unhoused” rather than homeless or “pregnant people”. And I am also not okay with support for wars in cases where the US is not directly attacked (and that in those cases we attack the attacker NOT an uninvolved country like Iraq).

Do you still strongly believe that “no one should make decisions over my body” when it comes to vaccines? Or only when you want to be allowed to physically cut and rip apart a baby that’s growing in your womb?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I keep reading that traditional conservatives are appalled by this administration, but I'm not seeing any of them make statements or take any action. Has anyone seen this? I sincerely hope it is happening and wish it was more visible.

I have not read this thread but my opinion is that Democrats are now the traditional conservation party (hate Russia. Love defensive spending. States rights. Settled precedent) and MAGA (are corrupt but don’t want to kill people). .

As a leftist I am confused. I imagine traditions Republicans are too.

In terms of speaking out and taking action, Democrats are filling the void.

But I don't see traditional Republicans doing that. The folks I know who were traditional Republicans decades ago are either just blindly following Trump or are silent

Anonymous wrote:A better question: where are the liberals who have winsome arguments and know how to win elections?

Where are the liberals who know how to avoid hitching their party to things that the electorate abhors. Where did they go?

Not seeing them anywhere.

So the problem is isn't "liberal policies or politics" but rather the center and left have allowed the right to frame EVERY issue in such a way that the right sounds reasonable when the reality is so different. The majority of the country agrees:
-abortion should be legal and safe in the first trimester and then thereafter under conditions
-sensible gun laws to keep weapons out of the hands of felons and people with mental illness
-taxation is ok if the money is well managed and spent
-federal responsibility for clean air and water, safe food and drugs are a good thing
-NATO and our western alliances have made lives better for Americans since the end of WW2 and they should remain intact

The above issues used to be consensus between both parties and now it is only one party that shares those values eventhough over 65% and in some cases over 85% share the above positions. But when the right is able to hammer and weaponize: 'states rights" "second Amendment" CRT, DEI, Defund the Police, Pro-Life as slogans that are either for their position or against the other side, and the nuance to debate and policy is lost, we end up with the lowest common denominator.