Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God did create that utopia you guys are thinking about. That was Eden. The problem was, humans were not satisfied with it and wanted more. Deep down, you and I all know that we would never be satisfied. So God is teaching us about what is really important, communion with him, not satisfying our own bottomless appetites.

So because people thousands of years ago were ungrateful a-holes, we now have kids dying of cancer and in car accidents and drowning and born into abuse? None of us asked to be born but are here in a world of suffering because people before us sinned?

The present human condition *if you believe in God* is the result of original sin. If you don’t believe in God, it’s just life. People get diseases, have accidents, fall off ladders, get bitten by mosquitoes and contract malaria, take too many drugs and overdose, get sick and die. People have accidents and don’t mean hurt themselves or others; some people absolutely mean to hurt others and take great pleasure in the pain of others. I don’t know how people who don’t believe in God think the universe works, but it seems many think everything is random. Nobody is trying to convince those people to believe in God.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Either God doesn't exist. Or God is incredibly cruel.

That is simplistic and a misunderstanding of what God is and is not. If the world must be your literal Garden of Eden in order for God to exist, you have a ways to go on your path of understanding. Even Jesus suffered in Human form.

But this whole Garden of Eden story does not make sense when you consider what we know about the Big Bang theory. Humans weren’t around at the start of the formation of life on earth so who is recording these stories. And how are we not all now genetically related to 2 people? How did we get different races on different continents just from Adam and Eve. Most reasonably educated Christians I know do not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Also, why is the Christian Bible with Eden the true religion and not any of the 4,200 world religions? Are the people who were born into Christianity just lucky to be have raised into the one true religion unlike those kids in remote villages who will never have the opportunity to be baptized? Why would God give some people a leg up on having the correct beliefs and not others?

The only logical conclusion is thar humans have made up stories to make sense of the world. Where you were born determines which set of stories you believe. And then in turn people go cause wars over these made up stories in the name of some God who would want them to murder people in His name? (Hint: the terrorists we hate also think they’re doing the Lord’s work).

I’ll add though that I’m not 100% sure there is no God or intelligent creator or something more out there we don’t understand. I just think the religious stories about the Garden of Eden and Noah’s Ark, etc. can be disproven by modern day genetics. Perhaps there is a God who loves us out there, but we humans sure like the weaponize our religious beliefs against women, gays, people with other beliefs, etc. and then vote to give ourselves a tax break for it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Either God doesn't exist. Or God is incredibly cruel.

That is simplistic and a misunderstanding of what God is and is not. If the world must be your literal Garden of Eden in order for God to exist, you have a ways to go on your path of understanding. Even Jesus suffered in Human form.

You can spin it however you want, but there has never been a convincing way to reconcile an omnipotent god, a loving god, and infant mortality

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If God can’t save an innocent person from suffering, then he isn’t omnipotent, is he? He can’t be both benevolent and omnipotent. The two are mutually exclusive in this case.

So in your view, God should exist to please us? Keep us safe, happy, help us achieve our desires?

I think any objective observer can see that there is something deeply flawed with humanity. We do things we know are wrong. Not just do things that are wrong but we often enjoy doing things that we know are wrong and hurtful to others. We have an internal consciousness but fight it at times. Animals don't do this. Everything in this world follows the "rules" put upon them. Rocks, on earth, will drop because they follow the laws of gravity. Lions are vicious and kill but do not do so for pure enjoyment. anyone would recognize that human evil goes way beyond. It is not a matter of linear progression from the animal world but a totally different plane.

So in this context, do you think God should aim to please us, who are greatly flawed? Any correction from God will feel horrible to us because it is not because God is mean or evil, but because we are flawed. Think of real life. Anything worth achieving requires a huge amount of sacrifice, pain, and sometimes suffering. Those who live a sheltered life often do not gain the wisdom and maturity of those who have been through difficult period of life. This is just how things are.

This is actually not true. Have you seen what Orcas can do? There is absolutely thrill killing (ever seen a cat play with a bird), rape, infanticide, etc. in the animal kingdom. They do not have a consciousness to the level that humans do, but many display intelligence, empathy, ability to help or harm others, etc. Let’s not pretend animals are just out there following some set of rules for survival and never do anything like kill or maim for fun.

I agree with you humanity is deeply flawed (and we have more tools, language, etc. than any other animal to overcome these flaws if we wanted). But we aren’t alone in the universe as far as doing some messed up stuff.

Animals do not sin. They are incapable of sin because they were not created as independent moral agents.

Sin does not begin with the act; it originates in a soul that has the law of God written upon it (Romans 2:15; James 1:14). Human beings are created in the image of God with an everlasting soul (Genesis 1:27). Animals are not created in the image of God.

Animals can choose to do things others want them to do, but that is trained into them using treats. Unfortunately, some people train animals to react in aggressive or harmful ways by physically punishment and pain.

The moral laws of God do not apply to animals.


Now if you do not believe in God, this will not make sense to you. Nobody here is asking anyone to believe in God or believe any of this stuff. The people who don’t believe in God and don’t believe this stuff, that’s perfectly fine. You have no need to believe anything. However, lots of people do believe this stuff. Their belief should be respected, the same as someone’s disbelief.

Anonymous wrote:God did create that utopia you guys are thinking about. That was Eden. The problem was, humans were not satisfied with it and wanted more. Deep down, you and I all know that we would never be satisfied. So God is teaching us about what is really important, communion with him, not satisfying our own bottomless appetites.

So because people thousands of years ago were ungrateful a-holes, we now have kids dying of cancer and in car accidents and drowning and born into abuse? None of us asked to be born but are here in a world of suffering because people before us sinned?

Anonymous wrote:Either God doesn't exist. Or God is incredibly cruel.

That is simplistic and a misunderstanding of what God is and is not. If the world must be your literal Garden of Eden in order for God to exist, you have a ways to go on your path of understanding. Even Jesus suffered in Human form.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:*So you would create non-humans without their own thoughts and feelings.*

Sorry, the first sentence was mistyped.

I never said that. God can’t create a space or people with free will but no evil?

Well then heaven is gonna SUCK.

So how can people have free will if God takes the ability of humans to choose for themselves away?


Free will is free. Totally free. Free will is not predetermined, programmed, AI creatures that look like humans, talk like humans, but aren’t human. Humans are individual beings.


We are unable to fully serve God in this life due to sin, but in heaven "every curse will no longer be" (Revelation 22:3). We will not be under the curse of sin any longer, so everything we do will be worship in heaven. We will never be motivated by anything other than our love for God. Everything we do will be out of our love for God, untainted by our sin nature.

Heaven is a different place than earth. But really since you don’t believe in God, why do you care? You don’t believe in any of this stuff; why are you so worried about it?

This has zero bearing on your life, why is it so important you endlessly debate things you don’t believe in?

Answer this question: Is there free will in heaven?

Answer this question: Do you believe in God?

regarding your question: Adam and Eve had a choice to make in the Garden of Eden, and that shows beyond all doubt that mankind was created with a free will.


Humans has retained his free will, and we will retain free will in heaven.

In heaven we are completely conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28–30). We will not want to sin. In heaven there will be no temptation to lure us and no devil to deceive us. We will face no test; our moral state will be secure. Jesus has a truly free will yet is without sin, so will we retain a free will yet be without sin. We will be like Him.

(1 John 3:2).

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If God can’t save an innocent person from suffering, then he isn’t omnipotent, is he? He can’t be both benevolent and omnipotent. The two are mutually exclusive in this case.

So in your view, God should exist to please us? Keep us safe, happy, help us achieve our desires?

I think any objective observer can see that there is something deeply flawed with humanity. We do things we know are wrong. Not just do things that are wrong but we often enjoy doing things that we know are wrong and hurtful to others. We have an internal consciousness but fight it at times. Animals don't do this. Everything in this world follows the "rules" put upon them. Rocks, on earth, will drop because they follow the laws of gravity. Lions are vicious and kill but do not do so for pure enjoyment. anyone would recognize that human evil goes way beyond. It is not a matter of linear progression from the animal world but a totally different plane.

So in this context, do you think God should aim to please us, who are greatly flawed? Any correction from God will feel horrible to us because it is not because God is mean or evil, but because we are flawed. Think of real life. Anything worth achieving requires a huge amount of sacrifice, pain, and sometimes suffering. Those who live a sheltered life often do not gain the wisdom and maturity of those who have been through difficult period of life. This is just how things are.

This is actually not true. Have you seen what Orcas can do? There is absolutely thrill killing (ever seen a cat play with a bird), rape, infanticide, etc. in the animal kingdom. They do not have a consciousness to the level that humans do, but many display intelligence, empathy, ability to help or harm others, etc. Let’s not pretend animals are just out there following some set of rules for survival and never do anything like kill or maim for fun.

I agree with you humanity is deeply flawed (and we have more tools, language, etc. than any other animal to overcome these flaws if we wanted). But we aren’t alone in the universe as far as doing some messed up stuff.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:*So you would create non-humans without their own thoughts and feelings.*

Sorry, the first sentence was mistyped.

I never said that. God can’t create a space or people with free will but no evil?

Well then heaven is gonna SUCK.

So how can people have free will if God takes the ability of humans to choose for themselves away?


Free will is free. Totally free. Free will is not predetermined, programmed, AI creatures that look like humans, talk like humans, but aren’t human. Humans are individual beings.


We are unable to fully serve God in this life due to sin, but in heaven "every curse will no longer be" (Revelation 22:3). We will not be under the curse of sin any longer, so everything we do will be worship in heaven. We will never be motivated by anything other than our love for God. Everything we do will be out of our love for God, untainted by our sin nature.

Heaven is a different place than earth. But really since you don’t believe in God, why do you care? You don’t believe in any of this stuff; why are you so worried about it?

This has zero bearing on your life, why is it so important you endlessly debate things you don’t believe in?

Answer this question: Is there free will in heaven?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:*So you would create non-humans without their own thoughts and feelings.*

Sorry, the first sentence was mistyped.

I never said that. God can’t create a space or people with free will but no evil?

Well then heaven is gonna SUCK.

So how can people have free will if God takes the ability of humans to choose for themselves away?


Free will is free. Totally free. Free will is not predetermined, programmed, AI creatures that look like humans, talk like humans, but aren’t human. Humans are individual beings.


We are unable to fully serve God in this life due to sin, but in heaven "every curse will no longer be" (Revelation 22:3). We will not be under the curse of sin any longer, so everything we do will be worship in heaven. We will never be motivated by anything other than our love for God. Everything we do will be out of our love for God, untainted by our sin nature.

Heaven is a different place than earth. But really since you don’t believe in God, why do you care? You don’t believe in any of this stuff; why are you so worried about it?

This has zero bearing on your life, why is it so important you endlessly debate things you don’t believe in?

Why ask why? It's like asking the Wizard of Oz. All conjecture.

Anonymous wrote:*So you would create non-humans without their own thoughts and feelings.*

Sorry, the first sentence was mistyped.

I never said that. God can’t create a space or people with free will but no evil?

Well then heaven is gonna SUCK.

*So you would create non-humans without their own thoughts and feelings.*

Sorry, the first sentence was mistyped.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So in your view, God should exist to please us? Keep us safe, happy, help us achieve our desires?

Yes.

That’s what I would do if I were God and loved people. Wouldn’t you? Wouldn’t you heal those children if you could?

Would you make everyone a millionaire too?

And make everyone happy 24/7/365?

Sure if i had the power. Why not?

Ok. Everyone lives for a very long time as millionaires. Since everyone is a happy millionaire, who be police officers, fire fighters, who will grow food for humanity?

There will be more people to feed so we will need more food. Will you give everyone their food everyday? Everyone has a fully stocked kitchen every day magically?

Then they can go get their meth and take vacations however I don’t know how they will fly on a plane because everyone is a millionaire and nobody is being a commercial pilot as a millionaire; especially if they have a fully stocked kitchen and don’t have to worry about money. I doubt anyone will be a garbage man; I hope you remove our trash daily too. I don’t know who is going to manufacture things because no millionaire is going to work in a factory. You can give us all a new car every year. If we wreck it you need to have a new vehicle placed in our garages. You will have to make our bodies different because when people fall off a ladder or wreck their car our bodies will become injured. Make sure we have invincible bodies that heal automatically.

More silliness. I am GOD. There are no fires thus no need for firefighters. Food will be plentiful and natural. Sure, why not magic refrigerators? Why can’t I do that? Why can’t I make it that way?

So when people want to rape, murder, sexually abuse other humans, animals, etc, how will you deal with that?

I honestly can’t believe I am being asked these questions. It’s kinda sick, or sickening at least.

I am frickin’ GOD. Why would I create anyone who wanted to do those things?

So you would create non-humans with their own thoughts and feelings. You would create creatures that only did what you programmed them to do. There would only be pre-programmed creatures that resembled humans, but not humans. Like AI people.

They would he like the robots people on Westworld. You would control their thoughts and actions.

Humans now have free will. You would have to take that away to guarantee your perfect society and perfect humans. You would take away the bad, but also all the things that make humans individuals and have thought and power to control their lives.

Anonymous wrote:I suggest you atheist actually think about what you are saying. Will you ever be satisfied? No. It doesn't stop at pediatric cancer. Humans will always want more. Also consider the hubris in trying to think you as a mere human can design a better existence.

Ultimately you only have two choices. Either decide that there is no God and everything is random and live with the consequences of that conclusion, or accept that there is a God but he clearly places more importance on something beyond our earthly comfort. Then if you really care to, figure out what God wants yourself. I honestly don't think it is that hard for anyone who is willing to pursue the question honestly.

There's a third option. There is a god but he is either apathetic or evil