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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

You sound like a parent of a middle school student that doesn’t fully understand how AP, math placement, high school and dual enrollment credit works. You really seem very ignorant of the topic.

As it was mentioned before, the are no AP/DE combined courses. AP is a designation given by a private organization College Board if a course passes an audit. DE are classes taken for both high school and college while the student is enrolled at both institutions. Sometimes magnet schools call their advanced courses DE, but they are just electives and will not get any credit anywhere.

The reality is that if the school requests AP before BC taken at the school, there’s not much you can do, they are not obligated to accept outside courses and examinations.

That’s assuming you can find a school that will agree to accept your kid for the exam. There are stories of homeschooling parents calling all high school within a three hour driving radius and still not being able to find a spot because high schools are not obligated to accommodate your child.

You seem to be very confident of your kids abilities to pass the AP Calculus AB in 9th grade, even before finishing precalculus. That’s not a given, but hope dies last.

For dual enrollment at local community colleges, there may be age restrictions and your child might not be able to enroll until 11th grade and there are prerequisite to meet, again you’ll have to complete precalculus and trigonometry before enrolling in Calculus 1.

You know very little, but I love your confidence in telling others that what colleges say on their admissions websites doesn’t matter, offering advice on what MIT wants etc. You are in need of a generous portion of humility, because your only qualification is your kid takes algebra in 6th grade.

Thank you for enlightening me. I must have imagined that the school cashed our check, provided the 6-digit join code and now the AB exam shows up in my child AP classroom.
Thank you correcting my hallucinations.

Also thank you for clarifying that there are no combined AP/DE courses. I must have imagined the big letters that say "DE/AP" on the LMS website of the class our child is enrolled in.

For sure you’re hallucinating, because there are no combined AP/DE classes where a college undersigns the DE portion of the class. What does that even mean?

Link to the website if you have it.

For reasons of anonymity, I'm not going to share the district I'm in, just an example of it:
CORONA DEL SOL HIGH SCHOOL offers:

AP Calculus BC taught by <name elided> is the same as dual-enrollment
Calculus with Analytic Geometry I MAT221 + Calculus with Analytic Geometry II MAT231.

That's in Arizona, local districts have similar arrangements.

Sigh. Sure, for anonymity reasons. Is that all you could find googling frantically? These are not “combined AP/DE courses”. That’s just a sheet telling students what community college classes have similar content with equivalent AP classes.

I’m baffled why you are making this all up, you’re such an idiot to think you can fool anyone.

That's good to know. I then also hallucinated talking to the teacher who explained that they are both accredited as an AP school as well hold an adjunct appointment at the college.
The course follows the syllabus of the AP curriculum, mostly, but they also must include units that are part of the college curriculum for the equivalent course. In Virginia's CC system, btw, AP Precalculus is combined with MTH 167.
They are audited yearly by the college to ensure that (the few things) MTH 167 has that AP Precalculus doesn't are included. Calculus AB is MTH 263, btw.

I have only imagined all of this. Let me wake up from my dream.

"Accredited as an AP school" is a nonsensical string of words. Schools aren't accredited as "AP schools", rather individual classes are approved by the College Board as being in line with the AP standards. For a class to be both AP and DE, the professor teaching the course would need to submit their course outline/curriculum to the college board for approval, which isn't something I've ever heard of happening. In fact, I'm pretty sure the college board only approves high school classes in this way, not college classes

Of course that never happens because the community college classes are approved by the chancellor or board. DE are college classes taken while the students also enroll in the college. AP classes are college level courses available for high school students.

Claiming that a parent can ask the high school administrator to “list” a high school class at the local community college is completely insane and it shows the poster has no idea about what he’s talking about.

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

You sound like a parent of a middle school student that doesn’t fully understand how AP, math placement, high school and dual enrollment credit works. You really seem very ignorant of the topic.

As it was mentioned before, the are no AP/DE combined courses. AP is a designation given by a private organization College Board if a course passes an audit. DE are classes taken for both high school and college while the student is enrolled at both institutions. Sometimes magnet schools call their advanced courses DE, but they are just electives and will not get any credit anywhere.

The reality is that if the school requests AP before BC taken at the school, there’s not much you can do, they are not obligated to accept outside courses and examinations.

That’s assuming you can find a school that will agree to accept your kid for the exam. There are stories of homeschooling parents calling all high school within a three hour driving radius and still not being able to find a spot because high schools are not obligated to accommodate your child.

You seem to be very confident of your kids abilities to pass the AP Calculus AB in 9th grade, even before finishing precalculus. That’s not a given, but hope dies last.

For dual enrollment at local community colleges, there may be age restrictions and your child might not be able to enroll until 11th grade and there are prerequisite to meet, again you’ll have to complete precalculus and trigonometry before enrolling in Calculus 1.

You know very little, but I love your confidence in telling others that what colleges say on their admissions websites doesn’t matter, offering advice on what MIT wants etc. You are in need of a generous portion of humility, because your only qualification is your kid takes algebra in 6th grade.

Thank you for enlightening me. I must have imagined that the school cashed our check, provided the 6-digit join code and now the AB exam shows up in my child AP classroom.
Thank you correcting my hallucinations.

Also thank you for clarifying that there are no combined AP/DE courses. I must have imagined the big letters that say "DE/AP" on the LMS website of the class our child is enrolled in.

For sure you’re hallucinating, because there are no combined AP/DE classes where a college undersigns the DE portion of the class. What does that even mean?

Link to the website if you have it.

For reasons of anonymity, I'm not going to share the district I'm in, just an example of it:
CORONA DEL SOL HIGH SCHOOL offers:

AP Calculus BC taught by <name elided> is the same as dual-enrollment
Calculus with Analytic Geometry I MAT221 + Calculus with Analytic Geometry II MAT231.

That's in Arizona, local districts have similar arrangements.

Sigh. Sure, for anonymity reasons. Is that all you could find googling frantically? These are not “combined AP/DE courses”. That’s just a sheet telling students what community college classes have similar content with equivalent AP classes.

I’m baffled why you are making this all up, you’re such an idiot to think you can fool anyone.

That's good to know. I then also hallucinated talking to the teacher who explained that they are both accredited as an AP school as well hold an adjunct appointment at the college.
The course follows the syllabus of the AP curriculum, mostly, but they also must include units that are part of the college curriculum for the equivalent course. In Virginia's CC system, btw, AP Precalculus is combined with MTH 167.
They are audited yearly by the college to ensure that (the few things) MTH 167 has that AP Precalculus doesn't are included. Calculus AB is MTH 263, btw.

I have only imagined all of this. Let me wake up from my dream.

"Accredited as an AP school" is a nonsensical string of words. Schools aren't accredited as "AP schools", rather individual classes are approved by the College Board as being in line with the AP standards. For a class to be both AP and DE, the professor teaching the course would need to submit their course outline/curriculum to the college board for approval, which isn't something I've ever heard of happening. In fact, I'm pretty sure the college board only approves high school classes in this way, not college classes

I'm a different poster and can confirm this. FCPS has "approved" courses that are taught at community colleges as DE, though on the FCPS transcript, the "DE/AP" indicates that the high school has authorized the AP exam and will provide AP course validation.

Additionally, I can confirm that several students in LMS are already taking BC Calculus. The TJ session was this past week, where the advisor specifically mentioned that "all the students who are currently taking BC Calc at LMS ..." clearly indicating that LMS has this group of students. So, students are doing it, and it's not just a one-off case of a math genius. Sometimes it's because of tiger parenting, sometimes due to genuine interest and intent from the students, and sometimes both. It's happening. And these are the same students that others will compete against. There are many colleges to choose from, but claiming it's not happening is simply inaccurate.

On the FCPS website course catalogue there are no DE/AP classes, only DE or AP.

The high school allowing the student to register for the AP exam as independent study, does not make that course AP, and does not provide any “AP course validation”. A class can be called AP only after College Board approves an audit on the course submitted by the teacher with lesson plans, syllabus etc. High schools can't put the AP label arbitrarily on a course without CB fighting to protect the intellectual property of their AP course designation.

So annoying when posters sock puppet as another poster that “confirms” preposterous claims that are so clearly false.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

Even if you meet the college's prerequisites, the high school can still refuse to let you skip into a DE course by refusing to issue high school credit for any college classes taken without their permission.

Also, as others have said, AP courses are not DE courses. Community colleges do not get their curriculum approved by the college board which is what is required to call a class and AP class.

Just curious, when would you have your child take the AB exam independently? The same year they're enrolled in precalc?

Yep. This year. I pointed him at Khan's AP Calculus AB material and he's completed in a few weeks. That's when we both realized that sitting for an entire year through school-level Calc AB would be cruel and unusual punishment. One year for BC would more appropriate, if for nothing else getting more practice.

In our district, it's odd. At the elementary level, they are completely anti-gifted. At the middle school level, they are gifted-friendly: kids can test into Algebra I/H in 6th, etc. At the high school level, they revert back to being anti-gifted: for instance, they don't have a deeper Precalculus BC style course the way some FCPS schools have, and in fact they even allow students who have taken only Algebra 2 non-Honors into AP Precalculus, and they attempt to stretch the Calculus/BC curriculum over 2 years by trying to enforce AB as a prerequisite. So, enrichment remains needed; which is another reason we don't want DC to having to commit to a full year of Calculus AB in school if we can avoid it.

To clarify your confusion about "community colleges getting their curriculum approved by the college board" - I've explained it in another post. It's not the community college. The HS teacher submits their courses to the college board for an audit, so that it becomes an AP course. Similarly and simultaneously, they are working with the community college and get approval from them for the dual-enrollment listing of the course because it matches the CC's syllabus. I actually checked both myself because I wanted to convince the teacher to expand it a little bit; but in AP Precalculus with unit 4 being optional (and very little additional material coming from the CC syllabus) it's an uphill battle. As I mentioned, they also have non-Honors Algebra 2 students in the class so they're spending time reviewing material from Alg 2/H. Basically, they entire course is focused on covering the minimal number of material so that kids get a 5 on the AP Precalc exam (which is even easier than the AB exam). But that's a different topic.

That’s not how it works. By the same stupid argument, any high school offering AP Calculus BC could work with UVA to list the course for dual enrollment because it matches the syllabus for Math 1310 and Math 1320. Each institution must have its own course, open to the entire student body if they meet prerequisites. You can’t bar students from enrolling in a class offered by the college they attend. An AP high school class doesn’t allow community college students to enroll, because it’s a high school class, open only to the students at that high school. Thats why it can’t be both AP and DE.

It’s jarring that you’d lie to this extent about the courses your child is taking. And to what purpose?

You don't seem to be bright, uninformed at the least. Arrogant in demeanor, unfortunately. Get informed first, before running your mouth.

Our school, Loudoun County High School offers courses that are both AP and DE:
6551DE AP Biology DE
6651DE AP Chemistry DE
https://sites.google.com/lcps.org/lch-course-selection/other/dual-enrollment

You mean the NVCC courses Bio 101, Bio 102, CHEM 111 and CHEM 112, because these are the classes students take regardless of how they are labeled by the high school.

Again, the AP label the high school puts on the course name is just to give an idea about what courses are closest in content with AP equivalents.

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

Even if you meet the college's prerequisites, the high school can still refuse to let you skip into a DE course by refusing to issue high school credit for any college classes taken without their permission.

Also, as others have said, AP courses are not DE courses. Community colleges do not get their curriculum approved by the college board which is what is required to call a class and AP class.

Just curious, when would you have your child take the AB exam independently? The same year they're enrolled in precalc?

Yep. This year. I pointed him at Khan's AP Calculus AB material and he's completed in a few weeks. That's when we both realized that sitting for an entire year through school-level Calc AB would be cruel and unusual punishment. One year for BC would more appropriate, if for nothing else getting more practice.

In our district, it's odd. At the elementary level, they are completely anti-gifted. At the middle school level, they are gifted-friendly: kids can test into Algebra I/H in 6th, etc. At the high school level, they revert back to being anti-gifted: for instance, they don't have a deeper Precalculus BC style course the way some FCPS schools have, and in fact they even allow students who have taken only Algebra 2 non-Honors into AP Precalculus, and they attempt to stretch the Calculus/BC curriculum over 2 years by trying to enforce AB as a prerequisite. So, enrichment remains needed; which is another reason we don't want DC to having to commit to a full year of Calculus AB in school if we can avoid it.

To clarify your confusion about "community colleges getting their curriculum approved by the college board" - I've explained it in another post. It's not the community college. The HS teacher submits their courses to the college board for an audit, so that it becomes an AP course. Similarly and simultaneously, they are working with the community college and get approval from them for the dual-enrollment listing of the course because it matches the CC's syllabus. I actually checked both myself because I wanted to convince the teacher to expand it a little bit; but in AP Precalculus with unit 4 being optional (and very little additional material coming from the CC syllabus) it's an uphill battle. As I mentioned, they also have non-Honors Algebra 2 students in the class so they're spending time reviewing material from Alg 2/H. Basically, they entire course is focused on covering the minimal number of material so that kids get a 5 on the AP Precalc exam (which is even easier than the AB exam). But that's a different topic.

That’s not how it works. By the same stupid argument, any high school offering AP Calculus BC could work with UVA to list the course for dual enrollment because it matches the syllabus for Math 1310 and Math 1320. Each institution must have its own course, open to the entire student body if they meet prerequisites. You can’t bar students from enrolling in a class offered by the college they attend. An AP high school class doesn’t allow community college students to enroll, because it’s a high school class, open only to the students at that high school. Thats why it can’t be both AP and DE.

It’s jarring that you’d lie to this extent about the courses your child is taking. And to what purpose?

You don't seem to be bright, uninformed at the least. Arrogant in demeanor, unfortunately. Get informed first, before running your mouth.

Our school, Loudoun County High School offers courses that are both AP and DE:
6551DE AP Biology DE
6651DE AP Chemistry DE
https://sites.google.com/lcps.org/lch-course-selection/other/dual-enrollment

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

You sound like a parent of a middle school student that doesn’t fully understand how AP, math placement, high school and dual enrollment credit works. You really seem very ignorant of the topic.

As it was mentioned before, the are no AP/DE combined courses. AP is a designation given by a private organization College Board if a course passes an audit. DE are classes taken for both high school and college while the student is enrolled at both institutions. Sometimes magnet schools call their advanced courses DE, but they are just electives and will not get any credit anywhere.

The reality is that if the school requests AP before BC taken at the school, there’s not much you can do, they are not obligated to accept outside courses and examinations.

That’s assuming you can find a school that will agree to accept your kid for the exam. There are stories of homeschooling parents calling all high school within a three hour driving radius and still not being able to find a spot because high schools are not obligated to accommodate your child.

You seem to be very confident of your kids abilities to pass the AP Calculus AB in 9th grade, even before finishing precalculus. That’s not a given, but hope dies last.

For dual enrollment at local community colleges, there may be age restrictions and your child might not be able to enroll until 11th grade and there are prerequisite to meet, again you’ll have to complete precalculus and trigonometry before enrolling in Calculus 1.

You know very little, but I love your confidence in telling others that what colleges say on their admissions websites doesn’t matter, offering advice on what MIT wants etc. You are in need of a generous portion of humility, because your only qualification is your kid takes algebra in 6th grade.

Thank you for enlightening me. I must have imagined that the school cashed our check, provided the 6-digit join code and now the AB exam shows up in my child AP classroom.
Thank you correcting my hallucinations.

Also thank you for clarifying that there are no combined AP/DE courses. I must have imagined the big letters that say "DE/AP" on the LMS website of the class our child is enrolled in.

Is your child taught by a high school teacher or a college professor? Do they travel to a CC to take the course? Which CC course code is the course and does the CC's course description of that course mention anything about it being AP?

By high school teachers. These are first and foremost AP courses. AP Precalc, AP Calculus AB, and AP Calculus BC. They use the AP collegeboard facilities like their AP website and other curricula materials for CRs, etc.

They are, however, listed as DE/AP courses because in addition to being AP courses, students must also enroll in the local community college and receive dual-enrollment credit. For example, in Virginia, a student taking DE/AP Precalculus receives the AP credit and also DE credit for MTH 167. (Different numbers for Calc AB/BC.)

You may wonder why this system is in place. I'm actually not sure why, but I have some guesses. For one, it's a matter of personnel. They don't have enough teachers to offer separate AP and DE classes. Second, the AP curriculum is typically a superset (or mostly a superset) of the matching CC syllabus. They're maybe a couple of items that are on the CC syllabus that aren't on the AP curriculum.

For students, it brings advantages as well. Students, like in any AP course, can take the AP exam to earn the university-dependent placement that comes with AP scores; but unlike in a non-combined DE/AP, they now also have the opportunity to transfer college credit even if they don't take the AP exam, thanks to Transfer Virginia. Of course, for the students it also means more paperwork - in addition to creating a college board account (and paying the AP exam fee) they now also have to enroll into the CC as a student (and fill out extra paperwork if they are freshman or sophomore). As is customary in DE courses offered through a high school, no tuition or fees are charged.

So overall it seems like an ok system, even if it's not (yet?) as widely used.
If your district doesn't offer it, bring it up with administrators and ask why they haven't considered it.

Sounds like it’s an AP class taught at the high school. Community colleges, just like regular colleges, accept AP scores for credit.

I don’t think you’re truthful about dual enrollment part, to be polite about it. What you are describing is the process and benefits for taking a DE class. On the FCPS course catalogue, the only dual enrollment class is Precalculus w/Trig DE (3160DE). None of the schools it’s offered at is listing it as dual AP/DE, only DE.

Name the school and the course to have any credibility instead of claiming privacy concerns and linking documents from random Arizona schools. It’s so weird writing these long posts making up stuff about what classes your child is taking.

This is not FCPS. This forum is for discussion of AAP and similar programs elsewhere. Like I said, if you want this at FCPS, talk to your administrator and point them at districts that do that.

I found two additional examples in Virginia; so it's perhaps not as rare as I thought.

One is Roanoke, see here. For many of their AP courses dual-enrollment is available via VWCC, including Precalculus, Calc AB, Calc BC, English Literature, etc. Page 5 has "How to read course descriptions". Page 9 explains the dual-enrollment process.

Or MCPS (VA), see here. Let me quote what they must have written for doubters like yourself:

DE/AP ENGLISH 11
LANGUAGE & COMPOSITION

Course Description: This course combines 1196A and DE1600A.

There are not two different groups of students (DE and AP) within a DE/AP course. All students in this combined course will be
required to enroll as an NRCC student and must be registered for the corresponding NRCC course(s) by the end of the drop/add
period established by NRCC. In order to enroll in a DE course, students must meet all admission and course placement
requirements established by NRCC.

DE/AP courses are taught by MCPS high school faculty who have met both the qualifications to teach at the college level and to
teach the AP course. The content of combined DE/AP courses will follow the syllabus of the College Board Advanced Placement
Program for the AP course. The AP curriculum contains the same components as the syllabi of the corresponding NRCC course(s)
as well as additional requirements beyond NRCC's course. Following the AP curriculum will ensure that the combined course is
equivalent to the corresponding NRCC course(s). Upon successful completion of a DE/AP course, students receive college credit
from NRCC and will be prepared for the AP exam which corresponds to this course.

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

You sound like a parent of a middle school student that doesn’t fully understand how AP, math placement, high school and dual enrollment credit works. You really seem very ignorant of the topic.

As it was mentioned before, the are no AP/DE combined courses. AP is a designation given by a private organization College Board if a course passes an audit. DE are classes taken for both high school and college while the student is enrolled at both institutions. Sometimes magnet schools call their advanced courses DE, but they are just electives and will not get any credit anywhere.

The reality is that if the school requests AP before BC taken at the school, there’s not much you can do, they are not obligated to accept outside courses and examinations.

That’s assuming you can find a school that will agree to accept your kid for the exam. There are stories of homeschooling parents calling all high school within a three hour driving radius and still not being able to find a spot because high schools are not obligated to accommodate your child.

You seem to be very confident of your kids abilities to pass the AP Calculus AB in 9th grade, even before finishing precalculus. That’s not a given, but hope dies last.

For dual enrollment at local community colleges, there may be age restrictions and your child might not be able to enroll until 11th grade and there are prerequisite to meet, again you’ll have to complete precalculus and trigonometry before enrolling in Calculus 1.

You know very little, but I love your confidence in telling others that what colleges say on their admissions websites doesn’t matter, offering advice on what MIT wants etc. You are in need of a generous portion of humility, because your only qualification is your kid takes algebra in 6th grade.

Thank you for enlightening me. I must have imagined that the school cashed our check, provided the 6-digit join code and now the AB exam shows up in my child AP classroom.
Thank you correcting my hallucinations.

Also thank you for clarifying that there are no combined AP/DE courses. I must have imagined the big letters that say "DE/AP" on the LMS website of the class our child is enrolled in.

Is your child taught by a high school teacher or a college professor? Do they travel to a CC to take the course? Which CC course code is the course and does the CC's course description of that course mention anything about it being AP?

By high school teachers. These are first and foremost AP courses. AP Precalc, AP Calculus AB, and AP Calculus BC. They use the AP collegeboard facilities like their AP website and other curricula materials for CRs, etc.

They are, however, listed as DE/AP courses because in addition to being AP courses, students must also enroll in the local community college and receive dual-enrollment credit. For example, in Virginia, a student taking DE/AP Precalculus receives the AP credit and also DE credit for MTH 167. (Different numbers for Calc AB/BC.)

You may wonder why this system is in place. I'm actually not sure why, but I have some guesses. For one, it's a matter of personnel. They don't have enough teachers to offer separate AP and DE classes. Second, the AP curriculum is typically a superset (or mostly a superset) of the matching CC syllabus. They're maybe a couple of items that are on the CC syllabus that aren't on the AP curriculum.

For students, it brings advantages as well. Students, like in any AP course, can take the AP exam to earn the university-dependent placement that comes with AP scores; but unlike in a non-combined DE/AP, they now also have the opportunity to transfer college credit even if they don't take the AP exam, thanks to Transfer Virginia. Of course, for the students it also means more paperwork - in addition to creating a college board account (and paying the AP exam fee) they now also have to enroll into the CC as a student (and fill out extra paperwork if they are freshman or sophomore). As is customary in DE courses offered through a high school, no tuition or fees are charged.

So overall it seems like an ok system, even if it's not (yet?) as widely used.
If your district doesn't offer it, bring it up with administrators and ask why they haven't considered it.

But then my original point still stands: if the high school does not want to let students skip from precalculus to BC, they can refuse to allow students to enroll in BC until they have completed AB, regardless of any testing results. There is no higher power compelling FCPS schools to let students skip from precalc into BC.

I thought at FCPS you had the Precalculus BC path that is designed so that students can go directly into Calculus BC? Is this only offered at some schools but not all?

PP is not in FCPS

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

You sound like a parent of a middle school student that doesn’t fully understand how AP, math placement, high school and dual enrollment credit works. You really seem very ignorant of the topic.

As it was mentioned before, the are no AP/DE combined courses. AP is a designation given by a private organization College Board if a course passes an audit. DE are classes taken for both high school and college while the student is enrolled at both institutions. Sometimes magnet schools call their advanced courses DE, but they are just electives and will not get any credit anywhere.

The reality is that if the school requests AP before BC taken at the school, there’s not much you can do, they are not obligated to accept outside courses and examinations.

That’s assuming you can find a school that will agree to accept your kid for the exam. There are stories of homeschooling parents calling all high school within a three hour driving radius and still not being able to find a spot because high schools are not obligated to accommodate your child.

You seem to be very confident of your kids abilities to pass the AP Calculus AB in 9th grade, even before finishing precalculus. That’s not a given, but hope dies last.

For dual enrollment at local community colleges, there may be age restrictions and your child might not be able to enroll until 11th grade and there are prerequisite to meet, again you’ll have to complete precalculus and trigonometry before enrolling in Calculus 1.

You know very little, but I love your confidence in telling others that what colleges say on their admissions websites doesn’t matter, offering advice on what MIT wants etc. You are in need of a generous portion of humility, because your only qualification is your kid takes algebra in 6th grade.

Thank you for enlightening me. I must have imagined that the school cashed our check, provided the 6-digit join code and now the AB exam shows up in my child AP classroom.
Thank you correcting my hallucinations.

Also thank you for clarifying that there are no combined AP/DE courses. I must have imagined the big letters that say "DE/AP" on the LMS website of the class our child is enrolled in.

Is your child taught by a high school teacher or a college professor? Do they travel to a CC to take the course? Which CC course code is the course and does the CC's course description of that course mention anything about it being AP?

By high school teachers. These are first and foremost AP courses. AP Precalc, AP Calculus AB, and AP Calculus BC. They use the AP collegeboard facilities like their AP website and other curricula materials for CRs, etc.

They are, however, listed as DE/AP courses because in addition to being AP courses, students must also enroll in the local community college and receive dual-enrollment credit. For example, in Virginia, a student taking DE/AP Precalculus receives the AP credit and also DE credit for MTH 167. (Different numbers for Calc AB/BC.)

You may wonder why this system is in place. I'm actually not sure why, but I have some guesses. For one, it's a matter of personnel. They don't have enough teachers to offer separate AP and DE classes. Second, the AP curriculum is typically a superset (or mostly a superset) of the matching CC syllabus. They're maybe a couple of items that are on the CC syllabus that aren't on the AP curriculum.

For students, it brings advantages as well. Students, like in any AP course, can take the AP exam to earn the university-dependent placement that comes with AP scores; but unlike in a non-combined DE/AP, they now also have the opportunity to transfer college credit even if they don't take the AP exam, thanks to Transfer Virginia. Of course, for the students it also means more paperwork - in addition to creating a college board account (and paying the AP exam fee) they now also have to enroll into the CC as a student (and fill out extra paperwork if they are freshman or sophomore). As is customary in DE courses offered through a high school, no tuition or fees are charged.

So overall it seems like an ok system, even if it's not (yet?) as widely used.
If your district doesn't offer it, bring it up with administrators and ask why they haven't considered it.

But then my original point still stands: if the high school does not want to let students skip from precalculus to BC, they can refuse to allow students to enroll in BC until they have completed AB, regardless of any testing results. There is no higher power compelling FCPS schools to let students skip from precalc into BC.

I thought at FCPS you had the Precalculus BC path that is designed so that students can go directly into Calculus BC? Is this only offered at some schools but not all?

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

Even if you meet the college's prerequisites, the high school can still refuse to let you skip into a DE course by refusing to issue high school credit for any college classes taken without their permission.

Also, as others have said, AP courses are not DE courses. Community colleges do not get their curriculum approved by the college board which is what is required to call a class and AP class.

Just curious, when would you have your child take the AB exam independently? The same year they're enrolled in precalc?

Yep. This year. I pointed him at Khan's AP Calculus AB material and he's completed in a few weeks. That's when we both realized that sitting for an entire year through school-level Calc AB would be cruel and unusual punishment. One year for BC would more appropriate, if for nothing else getting more practice.

In our district, it's odd. At the elementary level, they are completely anti-gifted. At the middle school level, they are gifted-friendly: kids can test into Algebra I/H in 6th, etc. At the high school level, they revert back to being anti-gifted: for instance, they don't have a deeper Precalculus BC style course the way some FCPS schools have, and in fact they even allow students who have taken only Algebra 2 non-Honors into AP Precalculus, and they attempt to stretch the Calculus/BC curriculum over 2 years by trying to enforce AB as a prerequisite. So, enrichment remains needed; which is another reason we don't want DC to having to commit to a full year of Calculus AB in school if we can avoid it.

To clarify your confusion about "community colleges getting their curriculum approved by the college board" - I've explained it in another post. It's not the community college. The HS teacher submits their courses to the college board for an audit, so that it becomes an AP course. Similarly and simultaneously, they are working with the community college and get approval from them for the dual-enrollment listing of the course because it matches the CC's syllabus. I actually checked both myself because I wanted to convince the teacher to expand it a little bit; but in AP Precalculus with unit 4 being optional (and very little additional material coming from the CC syllabus) it's an uphill battle. As I mentioned, they also have non-Honors Algebra 2 students in the class so they're spending time reviewing material from Alg 2/H. Basically, they entire course is focused on covering the minimal number of material so that kids get a 5 on the AP Precalc exam (which is even easier than the AB exam). But that's a different topic.

That’s not how it works. By the same stupid argument, any high school offering AP Calculus BC could work with UVA to list the course for dual enrollment because it matches the syllabus for Math 1310 and Math 1320. Each institution must have its own course, open to the entire student body if they meet prerequisites. You can’t bar students from enrolling in a class offered by the college they attend. An AP high school class doesn’t allow community college students to enroll, because it’s a high school class, open only to the students at that high school. Thats why it can’t be both AP and DE.

It’s jarring that you’d lie to this extent about the courses your child is taking. And to what purpose?

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

You sound like a parent of a middle school student that doesn’t fully understand how AP, math placement, high school and dual enrollment credit works. You really seem very ignorant of the topic.

As it was mentioned before, the are no AP/DE combined courses. AP is a designation given by a private organization College Board if a course passes an audit. DE are classes taken for both high school and college while the student is enrolled at both institutions. Sometimes magnet schools call their advanced courses DE, but they are just electives and will not get any credit anywhere.

The reality is that if the school requests AP before BC taken at the school, there’s not much you can do, they are not obligated to accept outside courses and examinations.

That’s assuming you can find a school that will agree to accept your kid for the exam. There are stories of homeschooling parents calling all high school within a three hour driving radius and still not being able to find a spot because high schools are not obligated to accommodate your child.

You seem to be very confident of your kids abilities to pass the AP Calculus AB in 9th grade, even before finishing precalculus. That’s not a given, but hope dies last.

For dual enrollment at local community colleges, there may be age restrictions and your child might not be able to enroll until 11th grade and there are prerequisite to meet, again you’ll have to complete precalculus and trigonometry before enrolling in Calculus 1.

You know very little, but I love your confidence in telling others that what colleges say on their admissions websites doesn’t matter, offering advice on what MIT wants etc. You are in need of a generous portion of humility, because your only qualification is your kid takes algebra in 6th grade.

Thank you for enlightening me. I must have imagined that the school cashed our check, provided the 6-digit join code and now the AB exam shows up in my child AP classroom.
Thank you correcting my hallucinations.

Also thank you for clarifying that there are no combined AP/DE courses. I must have imagined the big letters that say "DE/AP" on the LMS website of the class our child is enrolled in.

Is your child taught by a high school teacher or a college professor? Do they travel to a CC to take the course? Which CC course code is the course and does the CC's course description of that course mention anything about it being AP?

By high school teachers. These are first and foremost AP courses. AP Precalc, AP Calculus AB, and AP Calculus BC. They use the AP collegeboard facilities like their AP website and other curricula materials for CRs, etc.

They are, however, listed as DE/AP courses because in addition to being AP courses, students must also enroll in the local community college and receive dual-enrollment credit. For example, in Virginia, a student taking DE/AP Precalculus receives the AP credit and also DE credit for MTH 167. (Different numbers for Calc AB/BC.)

You may wonder why this system is in place. I'm actually not sure why, but I have some guesses. For one, it's a matter of personnel. They don't have enough teachers to offer separate AP and DE classes. Second, the AP curriculum is typically a superset (or mostly a superset) of the matching CC syllabus. They're maybe a couple of items that are on the CC syllabus that aren't on the AP curriculum.

For students, it brings advantages as well. Students, like in any AP course, can take the AP exam to earn the university-dependent placement that comes with AP scores; but unlike in a non-combined DE/AP, they now also have the opportunity to transfer college credit even if they don't take the AP exam, thanks to Transfer Virginia. Of course, for the students it also means more paperwork - in addition to creating a college board account (and paying the AP exam fee) they now also have to enroll into the CC as a student (and fill out extra paperwork if they are freshman or sophomore). As is customary in DE courses offered through a high school, no tuition or fees are charged.

So overall it seems like an ok system, even if it's not (yet?) as widely used.
If your district doesn't offer it, bring it up with administrators and ask why they haven't considered it.

Sounds like it’s an AP class taught at the high school. Community colleges, just like regular colleges, accept AP scores for credit.

I don’t think you’re truthful about dual enrollment part, to be polite about it. What you are describing is the process and benefits for taking a DE class. On the FCPS course catalogue, the only dual enrollment class is Precalculus w/Trig DE (3160DE). None of the schools it’s offered at is listing it as dual AP/DE, only DE.

Name the school and the course to have any credibility instead of claiming privacy concerns and linking documents from random Arizona schools. It’s so weird writing these long posts making up stuff about what classes your child is taking.

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

Even if you meet the college's prerequisites, the high school can still refuse to let you skip into a DE course by refusing to issue high school credit for any college classes taken without their permission.

Also, as others have said, AP courses are not DE courses. Community colleges do not get their curriculum approved by the college board which is what is required to call a class and AP class.

Just curious, when would you have your child take the AB exam independently? The same year they're enrolled in precalc?

Yep. This year. I pointed him at Khan's AP Calculus AB material and he's completed in a few weeks. That's when we both realized that sitting for an entire year through school-level Calc AB would be cruel and unusual punishment. One year for BC would more appropriate, if for nothing else getting more practice.

In our district, it's odd. At the elementary level, they are completely anti-gifted. At the middle school level, they are gifted-friendly: kids can test into Algebra I/H in 6th, etc. At the high school level, they revert back to being anti-gifted: for instance, they don't have a deeper Precalculus BC style course the way some FCPS schools have, and in fact they even allow students who have taken only Algebra 2 non-Honors into AP Precalculus, and they attempt to stretch the Calculus/BC curriculum over 2 years by trying to enforce AB as a prerequisite. So, enrichment remains needed; which is another reason we don't want DC to having to commit to a full year of Calculus AB in school if we can avoid it.

To clarify your confusion about "community colleges getting their curriculum approved by the college board" - I've explained it in another post. It's not the community college. The HS teacher submits their courses to the college board for an audit, so that it becomes an AP course. Similarly and simultaneously, they are working with the community college and get approval from them for the dual-enrollment listing of the course because it matches the CC's syllabus. I actually checked both myself because I wanted to convince the teacher to expand it a little bit; but in AP Precalculus with unit 4 being optional (and very little additional material coming from the CC syllabus) it's an uphill battle. As I mentioned, they also have non-Honors Algebra 2 students in the class so they're spending time reviewing material from Alg 2/H. Basically, they entire course is focused on covering the minimal number of material so that kids get a 5 on the AP Precalc exam (which is even easier than the AB exam). But that's a different topic.

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

You sound like a parent of a middle school student that doesn’t fully understand how AP, math placement, high school and dual enrollment credit works. You really seem very ignorant of the topic.

As it was mentioned before, the are no AP/DE combined courses. AP is a designation given by a private organization College Board if a course passes an audit. DE are classes taken for both high school and college while the student is enrolled at both institutions. Sometimes magnet schools call their advanced courses DE, but they are just electives and will not get any credit anywhere.

The reality is that if the school requests AP before BC taken at the school, there’s not much you can do, they are not obligated to accept outside courses and examinations.

That’s assuming you can find a school that will agree to accept your kid for the exam. There are stories of homeschooling parents calling all high school within a three hour driving radius and still not being able to find a spot because high schools are not obligated to accommodate your child.

You seem to be very confident of your kids abilities to pass the AP Calculus AB in 9th grade, even before finishing precalculus. That’s not a given, but hope dies last.

For dual enrollment at local community colleges, there may be age restrictions and your child might not be able to enroll until 11th grade and there are prerequisite to meet, again you’ll have to complete precalculus and trigonometry before enrolling in Calculus 1.

You know very little, but I love your confidence in telling others that what colleges say on their admissions websites doesn’t matter, offering advice on what MIT wants etc. You are in need of a generous portion of humility, because your only qualification is your kid takes algebra in 6th grade.

Thank you for enlightening me. I must have imagined that the school cashed our check, provided the 6-digit join code and now the AB exam shows up in my child AP classroom.
Thank you correcting my hallucinations.

Also thank you for clarifying that there are no combined AP/DE courses. I must have imagined the big letters that say "DE/AP" on the LMS website of the class our child is enrolled in.

Is your child taught by a high school teacher or a college professor? Do they travel to a CC to take the course? Which CC course code is the course and does the CC's course description of that course mention anything about it being AP?

By high school teachers. These are first and foremost AP courses. AP Precalc, AP Calculus AB, and AP Calculus BC. They use the AP collegeboard facilities like their AP website and other curricula materials for CRs, etc.

They are, however, listed as DE/AP courses because in addition to being AP courses, students must also enroll in the local community college and receive dual-enrollment credit. For example, in Virginia, a student taking DE/AP Precalculus receives the AP credit and also DE credit for MTH 167. (Different numbers for Calc AB/BC.)

You may wonder why this system is in place. I'm actually not sure why, but I have some guesses. For one, it's a matter of personnel. They don't have enough teachers to offer separate AP and DE classes. Second, the AP curriculum is typically a superset (or mostly a superset) of the matching CC syllabus. They're maybe a couple of items that are on the CC syllabus that aren't on the AP curriculum.

For students, it brings advantages as well. Students, like in any AP course, can take the AP exam to earn the university-dependent placement that comes with AP scores; but unlike in a non-combined DE/AP, they now also have the opportunity to transfer college credit even if they don't take the AP exam, thanks to Transfer Virginia. Of course, for the students it also means more paperwork - in addition to creating a college board account (and paying the AP exam fee) they now also have to enroll into the CC as a student (and fill out extra paperwork if they are freshman or sophomore). As is customary in DE courses offered through a high school, no tuition or fees are charged.

So overall it seems like an ok system, even if it's not (yet?) as widely used.
If your district doesn't offer it, bring it up with administrators and ask why they haven't considered it.

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

You sound like a parent of a middle school student that doesn’t fully understand how AP, math placement, high school and dual enrollment credit works. You really seem very ignorant of the topic.

As it was mentioned before, the are no AP/DE combined courses. AP is a designation given by a private organization College Board if a course passes an audit. DE are classes taken for both high school and college while the student is enrolled at both institutions. Sometimes magnet schools call their advanced courses DE, but they are just electives and will not get any credit anywhere.

The reality is that if the school requests AP before BC taken at the school, there’s not much you can do, they are not obligated to accept outside courses and examinations.

That’s assuming you can find a school that will agree to accept your kid for the exam. There are stories of homeschooling parents calling all high school within a three hour driving radius and still not being able to find a spot because high schools are not obligated to accommodate your child.

You seem to be very confident of your kids abilities to pass the AP Calculus AB in 9th grade, even before finishing precalculus. That’s not a given, but hope dies last.

For dual enrollment at local community colleges, there may be age restrictions and your child might not be able to enroll until 11th grade and there are prerequisite to meet, again you’ll have to complete precalculus and trigonometry before enrolling in Calculus 1.

You know very little, but I love your confidence in telling others that what colleges say on their admissions websites doesn’t matter, offering advice on what MIT wants etc. You are in need of a generous portion of humility, because your only qualification is your kid takes algebra in 6th grade.

Thank you for enlightening me. I must have imagined that the school cashed our check, provided the 6-digit join code and now the AB exam shows up in my child AP classroom.
Thank you correcting my hallucinations.

Also thank you for clarifying that there are no combined AP/DE courses. I must have imagined the big letters that say "DE/AP" on the LMS website of the class our child is enrolled in.

Is your child taught by a high school teacher or a college professor? Do they travel to a CC to take the course? Which CC course code is the course and does the CC's course description of that course mention anything about it being AP?

By high school teachers. These are first and foremost AP courses. AP Precalc, AP Calculus AB, and AP Calculus BC. They use the AP collegeboard facilities like their AP website and other curricula materials for CRs, etc.

They are, however, listed as DE/AP courses because in addition to being AP courses, students must also enroll in the local community college and receive dual-enrollment credit. For example, in Virginia, a student taking DE/AP Precalculus receives the AP credit and also DE credit for MTH 167. (Different numbers for Calc AB/BC.)

You may wonder why this system is in place. I'm actually not sure why, but I have some guesses. For one, it's a matter of personnel. They don't have enough teachers to offer separate AP and DE classes. Second, the AP curriculum is typically a superset (or mostly a superset) of the matching CC syllabus. They're maybe a couple of items that are on the CC syllabus that aren't on the AP curriculum.

For students, it brings advantages as well. Students, like in any AP course, can take the AP exam to earn the university-dependent placement that comes with AP scores; but unlike in a non-combined DE/AP, they now also have the opportunity to transfer college credit even if they don't take the AP exam, thanks to Transfer Virginia. Of course, for the students it also means more paperwork - in addition to creating a college board account (and paying the AP exam fee) they now also have to enroll into the CC as a student (and fill out extra paperwork if they are freshman or sophomore). As is customary in DE courses offered through a high school, no tuition or fees are charged.

So overall it seems like an ok system, even if it's not (yet?) as widely used.
If your district doesn't offer it, bring it up with administrators and ask why they haven't considered it.

But then my original point still stands: if the high school does not want to let students skip from precalculus to BC, they can refuse to allow students to enroll in BC until they have completed AB, regardless of any testing results. There is no higher power compelling FCPS schools to let students skip from precalc into BC.

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Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.

Where would the advanced students go if not to top colleges? Of course not all, but a good number get offers from best colleges.

If 700 kids take Algebra in 6 in one district alone, it’s not possible that half of it will make it to top colleges. Probably not even 10%.

Colleges want to see a rigorous coursework and evidence the student can handle the classes for intended major. A kid entering high school at geometry, getting A, and completing AP calculus BC with 5, will check the most rigorous mark, and there’s no reason to believe they can’t handle more advanced college classes.

Taking more math classes won’t change that, it just means the kid was set on that path from elementary school because the parents put in the effort. Look up details in Harvard vs. Fair Admissions, at no point the DE math came out as a factor.

It’s going to be down to other things first and DE math has a negligible impact.

Colleges won't know that when they need to admit. They'll at most see the grades for the first quarter of Calc BC, and they won't have an AP score in the application packet for a kid taking BC in 12th. Kids who take BC in 11th will have both a full course grade and the AP score available in their application packet.

For the second bolded point, that depends entirely on the school district. In FCPS and LCPS, 7th grade Algebra has very little to do with parental effort and a lot more to do with natural math aptitude. The bar is not high, and many kids clear the bar with nothing more than the math taught in their schools.

If a student enters high school at precalculus, it is expected they’ll keep taking math over the years, and that implies math offered at high school or outside, and will include Calculus, Statistics, and others like Multivariable.

If a student enters high school at geometry, taking a regular progression of one math class per year they’ll end up at Calculus in senior year. While AP exam is not available, grades in first semester are.

Both are taking full advantage of what’s available to them in high school, colleges won’t be looking at what was done in middle school. It’s not expected students use their summers to advance in math.

One caveat is that students advanced in math often do other activities that make them better applicants, but that a classic example of correlation without causation.

People are so invested in believing their kid has a leg up, there’s nothing to convince them otherwise.

If your high school offers through multivariable calculus and your student enters high school in geometry and takes up through calc AB…no, they aren’t taking advantage of what is available to them. They are taking what’s appropriate for them, but that’s different from what’s available

Ok, somehow you know better than colleges themselves, but haven’t provided anything to substantiate your deeply held belief:

Here is what MIT says about the coursework in high school:

“To be clear, we do not expect students do anything above and beyond what is required to demonstrate their readiness for the MIT education. However, we also know that many of our applicants have interests, aptitudes, and curiosities that may carry themselves beyond what is offered at their local high school, and the resources here may help you explore those further if you wish.⁠”

Readiness is detailed in this link, Calculus being highest level of math that’s expected:
https://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/foundations/

You’re so enamored of the idea that your kid has a leg up from taking algebra in 6th grade that there’s nothing that could change your mind about it.

If your interest in math is leading to taking dual enrollment classes, that’s great. If your thing is being part of math club and tutor other students, doing research, or whatever floats your boat, that’s equally good. You won’t be dinged because you “only” took Calculus.

Please realize “readiness” for applicants is the minimum to apply. If you like at who is actually admitted and attends, the vast majority have had math beyond calc BC

If they took Statistics they'd understand the difference between correlation and causation.

MIT smirks at the "rigor" of a high school / dual Enrollment Multivariable Calc / Linear Algebra class. That's not what impresses them.

+1

What are you talking about? It isn’t what impresses them per se, but the majority of applicants getting accepted are going to have post BC calc math (among other impressive things).

That’s likely true for math majors, not sure you can generalize to all admits.

If you read what MIT says about post BC Calculus it’s clear those classes don’t carry as much weight as APs in Physics and Chemistry.

The rigor in DE varies widely, just from my kid taking Multivariable at the local community college, it’s easy to get an A without mastery and they don’t even cover the entire material. Colleges know this very well, yes, it adds something, but it won’t be the determining factor. And it’s not required, someone getting a 5 in Calculus BC would have absolutely no problem acing the community college Multivariable, so it’s not really a significant differentiator.

Since the acceleration occurs mostly in middle school, it says very little about talent and ability and more about socioeconomic status, it’s mostly parents buying enrichment and pushing for higher math placement. Again colleges know this, it’s not a secret to anyone, and it’s not the back door to top colleges as some claim.

The colleges know your socioeconomic status. Obviously, they’ll treat FGLI kids differently from UMC ones. If you’re a UMC kid, and most of the top kids from your school are in multivariable, you’ll look like a kid who is less motivated or less intelligent than your peer group.

You won’t look less motivated and less intelligent because your parents weren’t pushy enough to place you in Algebra in 6th grade. So much cope and wishful thinking from tiger parents.

You can still do Algebra in 7th and have no dual enrollment math if the school enforces Calculus AB then BC sequence or the student chooses to take AP Statistics in senior year. It’s not going to be looked down at.

Easy fix: take the AP AB exam as external student, then they have to admit you to BC directly.

No they don't. And good luck finding a spot

They do if the class is AP/DE and the participating college through which the class is offered accepts AP credit for Calc AB.

AP, which is what you were talking about, is not offered through a college.

Suppose the school says they won't offer high school credit for an AB score. What would your next steps be?

We don't need or want high school credit for AB. There's just not enough room in the schedule for AB given all the other AP courses DC will have to take in their sophomore year. Plus there needs to be room for fun classes like band/orchestra, foreign languages, and perhaps another elective like Robotics.

We just insist on being placed into the DE/AP Calculus BC course since we meet the prerequisites as posed by the college undersigning the DE portion.
Again, the courses are AP/DE (combined), not just AP. Students receive both DE credit and can take the AP exam.

Even if you meet the college's prerequisites, the high school can still refuse to let you skip into a DE course by refusing to issue high school credit for any college classes taken without their permission.

Also, as others have said, AP courses are not DE courses. Community colleges do not get their curriculum approved by the college board which is what is required to call a class and AP class.

Just curious, when would you have your child take the AB exam independently? The same year they're enrolled in precalc?

Yep. This year. I pointed him at Khan's AP Calculus AB material and he's completed in a few weeks. That's when we both realized that sitting for an entire year through school-level Calc AB would be cruel and unusual punishment. One year for BC would more appropriate, if for nothing else getting more practice.

In our district, it's odd. At the elementary level, they are completely anti-gifted. At the middle school level, they are gifted-friendly: kids can test into Algebra I/H in 6th, etc. At the high school level, they revert back to being anti-gifted: for instance, they don't have a deeper Precalculus BC style course the way some FCPS schools have, and in fact they even allow students who have taken only Algebra 2 non-Honors into AP Precalculus, and they attempt to stretch the Calculus/BC curriculum over 2 years by trying to enforce AB as a prerequisite. So, enrichment remains needed; which is another reason we don't want DC to having to commit to a full year of Calculus AB in school if we can avoid it.

To clarify your confusion about "community colleges getting their curriculum approved by the college board" - I've explained it in another post. It's not the community college. The HS teacher submits their courses to the college board for an audit, so that it becomes an AP course. Similarly and simultaneously, they are working with the community college and get approval from them for the dual-enrollment listing of the course because it matches the CC's syllabus. I actually checked both myself because I wanted to convince the teacher to expand it a little bit; but in AP Precalculus with unit 4 being optional (and very little additional material coming from the CC syllabus) it's an uphill battle. As I mentioned, they also have non-Honors Algebra 2 students in the class so they're spending time reviewing material from Alg 2/H. Basically, they entire course is focused on covering the minimal number of material so that kids get a 5 on the AP Precalc exam (which is even easier than the AB exam). But that's a different topic.

How exactly do you get around them enforcing AB as a prereq? Even if your kid has 5s on all the AP math exams, even if he meets the college's prerequisite for calc 2, that still doesn't compel the school to let him take BC after precalc.

Also get him some AoPS books and have him take the AMC.