Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:We had great experience w APS re class size. However my kid who transitioned from Arlington public to private found he was ahead in math and behind in reading/writing.

My sibling who is a college professor says it’s shocking how many kids at selective colleges can’t write these days. APS should up it’s game in that regard.

I’m the attorney who posted
about our interns at Georgetown law. I feel that it is imperative that colleges begin communicating this to schools. Schools need to know that even their brightest aren’t prepared for college.

How are you hiring? Are they submitting writing from the law school year?

Are you looking beyond Georgetown or just relying on the reputation of the school? These students aren’t the brightest if they can’t write, no matter what school they come from. The smartest lawyers I know didn’t come out of the big-name schools- that’s just an anecdote of course.

Then there also must be something wrong with Georgetown's legal writing program.

PP here. The thing is, their writing samples are excellent. So clearly they have been edited well. The bigger issue I feel is that the interns I am thinking of seem to be under the impression that it is ok to turn a very rough draft in. Drafts still need to be well written. This isn’t a an email to a friend. I don’t want to completely bash Georgetown Law. As I explained in my previous post, the interns from Georgetown seem to be part of a pattern. I just picked on them because their school is quite reputable and we had three interns from them that had terrible writing skills. To be fair, we’ve had great interns from Georgetown as well. But in general, the quality of writing we are getting is becoming worse and worse.

I’ve seen this in my personal life as well. I’ve reviewed college application essays for my husband’s nephews and nieces. They are all super smart smart but their writing skills are terrible. They are all applying to med school, dental school, PA school etc. where writing doesn’t matter as much. But I feel that high school graduates should still be able to write a decent paper. I read a good article by Natalie Wexler and Judith Hochman. What they are saying makes a lot of sense. Kids need to be explicitly taught how to write starting at the sentence level. When I read it it’s like a lightbulb went off. This is the problem. Students no longer know how to construct complex sentences.

https://www.aft.org/ae/summer2017/hochman_wexler

Yeah that sounds like a combo of can’t write, plus an overly causal attitude towards assignments. This generation is way too casual.

What is the solution though? Take a look at this other article by Natalie Wexler who I love. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2023/01/04/to-improve-students-writing-teach-them-to-construct-sentences-and-outline-paragraphs/?sh=4307e8b37e70

She is saying that only 27% of 8th and 12th graders are proficient in writing as measured by national tests. That’s insane. This isn’t just an Arlington problem. It is a nationwide issue.

I don’t know the solution, but I will say that I learned to write with the linear outline that’s suggested in the article. Thanks for posting.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We had great experience w APS re class size. However my kid who transitioned from Arlington public to private found he was ahead in math and behind in reading/writing.

My sibling who is a college professor says it’s shocking how many kids at selective colleges can’t write these days. APS should up it’s game in that regard.

Its

Yes. I’m an attorney and we have interns coming to us from Georgetown Law and they can barely write a paragraph.

Seems like that's an even bigger problem. Their 4-years college didn't fix the problem either?

PP here. I guess not. I just don’t understand how someone can get into law school with such poor writing skills. My worry is that if these are the “best of the best” when it comes to writing, what is everyone else’s writing like? Maybe students come to college with such poor writing skills that colleges have to dumb down the curriculum? I honestly have no idea what’s going on.

Writing for law is not taught until law school, and yes it is a totally different skill set. Then, writing the way your firm wants you to write is yet another skill set. There is also a generational divide in how drafts are created, and some old school lawyers do not understand the process of the current generation. For example, associates are frustrated with older partners who nitpick on the polish when the brief is in the idea and supporting evidence phase. The current generation of writers have been taught a process that puts the polish last, not that it never comes.

Perhaps you are right (hence my comment on how drafts should still be polished). But I wish that was the only problem. I’m talking about interns who can’t construct a proper paragraph. Actually to be fair, they can but it just sounds so basic, like something I would have written in 8th or 9th grade. The sad thing is that these students are super smart. They know so much and are exposed to so many different ideas. It’s just that they can’t write. They definitely have better presentation skills than I did at that age, but they can’t write.

Anonymous wrote:I just can't get super worked up about this. A bunch of things going on. A huge factor is Arlington is getting wealthier and wealthier. More people CAN afford private school than ever before. Covid, some left and won't ever come back. And yes, the equity dog whistle. There is a lot of misrepresentation I see on this board about how there is no homework (not true), no one is allowed to fail any more (not true), everyone gets an A (not true), no rigorous content for more advanced students (not true), blah, blah. High school is plenty rigorous in APS if your student is capable and on that track. Intensified content is back in middle school. And if you want your kid pulled out for gifted services in APS, well we never did that so move to Fairfax and enjoy all that comes with that.

Many kids are still going public in Arlington and my genuine reaction is I'm glad for anyone to leave. More space for my kids and I hope it siphons off the more extreme wealth, which I don't want my kids around anyway.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We had great experience w APS re class size. However my kid who transitioned from Arlington public to private found he was ahead in math and behind in reading/writing.

My sibling who is a college professor says it’s shocking how many kids at selective colleges can’t write these days. APS should up it’s game in that regard.

I’m the attorney who posted
about our interns at Georgetown law. I feel that it is imperative that colleges begin communicating this to schools. Schools need to know that even their brightest aren’t prepared for college.

How are you hiring? Are they submitting writing from the law school year?

Are you looking beyond Georgetown or just relying on the reputation of the school? These students aren’t the brightest if they can’t write, no matter what school they come from. The smartest lawyers I know didn’t come out of the big-name schools- that’s just an anecdote of course.

Then there also must be something wrong with Georgetown's legal writing program.

PP here. The thing is, their writing samples are excellent. So clearly they have been edited well. The bigger issue I feel is that the interns I am thinking of seem to be under the impression that it is ok to turn a very rough draft in. Drafts still need to be well written. This isn’t a an email to a friend. I don’t want to completely bash Georgetown Law. As I explained in my previous post, the interns from Georgetown seem to be part of a pattern. I just picked on them because their school is quite reputable and we had three interns from them that had terrible writing skills. To be fair, we’ve had great interns from Georgetown as well. But in general, the quality of writing we are getting is becoming worse and worse.

I’ve seen this in my personal life as well. I’ve reviewed college application essays for my husband’s nephews and nieces. They are all super smart smart but their writing skills are terrible. They are all applying to med school, dental school, PA school etc. where writing doesn’t matter as much. But I feel that high school graduates should still be able to write a decent paper. I read a good article by Natalie Wexler and Judith Hochman. What they are saying makes a lot of sense. Kids need to be explicitly taught how to write starting at the sentence level. When I read it it’s like a lightbulb went off. This is the problem. Students no longer know how to construct complex sentences.

https://www.aft.org/ae/summer2017/hochman_wexler

Yeah that sounds like a combo of can’t write, plus an overly causal attitude towards assignments. This generation is way too casual.

What is the solution though? Take a look at this other article by Natalie Wexler who I love. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2023/01/04/to-improve-students-writing-teach-them-to-construct-sentences-and-outline-paragraphs/?sh=4307e8b37e70

She is saying that only 27% of 8th and 12th graders are proficient in writing as measured by national tests. That’s insane. This isn’t just an Arlington problem. It is a nationwide issue.