Anonymous
01/27/2023 16:05
Subject: Re:URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
I have discussed this with my DD (we are south Asian) and the way we think about it is like this. Schools like Harvard are a lottery. The threshold at which you can reasonably buy a lottery ticket is different for different groups of kids (urms, legacies, etc). But it’s a lottery for everyone. And that is the key point. These “stats” are not what get you into the school - we all knew there are plenty of 4.0/stellar EC/1600 kids who get rejected. All these stats do is make you competitive to have your application read thoroughly. That’s it. And it is true no matter which group you fall into.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 15:54
Subject: URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:My kid is a URM from a middle class family in Fairfax County. A language other than English is often spoken in our house. Both parents are grads of US universities. My kid has high stats, has been admitted to some sought after universities. I feel they are constantly having to prove themselves in front of their non-URM friends. In addition, I often get the “Your kid will have an advantage in college admissions” comments. It irks me to no end! My kid worked very hard for those grades. Non URM kids from their grade were admitted to comprable schools with similar-possibly lower scores.
They are still working hard in their classes (as they should), while some of her classmates are enjoying some senioritis. If you are a parent to a high performing URM, do you notice this as well? It just makes me sad how they still feel the pressure to show they deserve to attend a prestigious university.
I absolutely agree with you that this is not fair. The simplest solution - getting rid of affirmative action, so no one would have any doubt!
Anonymous
01/27/2023 15:50
Subject: Re:URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
This thread has been dominated by two distinct partisan group positions
1. Asian students have to outperform to gain admittance to the top schools
2. URM students are getting into the top schools with scores that wouldn't qualify them for admittance to their local community college
One position is worth humane discussion. The other is pure venom and should be treated as such.
1. Asian students have to outperform to gain admittance to the top schools
2. URM students are getting into the top schools with scores that wouldn't qualify them for admittance to their local community college
One position is worth humane discussion. The other is pure venom and should be treated as such.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 15:38
Subject: Re:URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."
You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.
DP.
The chart doesn’t support that URM students are getting into Harvard (or Yale) with 1090 scores. The chart supports that the scores are at least at the 90% percentile, which is why the OP called BS on the original post. Big difference between 1090 and 1390. The OP didn’t claim that the scores for URM students are the SAME for white and Asian students.
that chart shows what the chart shows.. that the average black students admitted to Harvard have a much lower score than their Asian American counter parts.
You are being obtuse if you don't realize that Asian Americans have to far outperform every single group to be admitted to those schools.
I am not arguing that point- Asian American students are higher and have to outperform. If you reread my post, the data doesn’t support that URM students are getting into Harvard or any Ivy with sub 90% scores, which was asserted on this thread.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 15:25
Subject: Re:URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."
You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.
DP.
The chart doesn’t support that URM students are getting into Harvard (or Yale) with 1090 scores. The chart supports that the scores are at least at the 90% percentile, which is why the OP called BS on the original post. Big difference between 1090 and 1390. The OP didn’t claim that the scores for URM students are the SAME for white and Asian students.
that chart shows what the chart shows.. that the average black students admitted to Harvard have a much lower score than their Asian American counter parts.
You are being obtuse if you don't realize that Asian Americans have to far outperform every single group to be admitted to those schools.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 15:20
Subject: Re:URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."
You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.
DP.
Numbers don't lie.
I’m white. This chart actually shows that Black kids have SATs almost as high the SATs of the white kids and probably have a lot of test score overlap with the white kids, especially after you adjust for high school quality.
Why are you assuming that those black kids aren't coming from privates?
Well, if I’m wrong, adjust for that and show me. But it could well be the Black kids from private schools and UMC have roughly the same stats as the white kids.
Even if that’s incorrect, segregation, racism and race-related poverty are blights on our society that hurt us all. If letting some Black kids get into Harvard with slightly below average SATs can somehow help reduce race-related income, wealth and health gaps, then, seriously, go for it. Any costs related to that are very small when compared with the harm done by race-related poverty.
Race-related poverty *is* a blight on our society. Going to ask you if wealthy black folk and/or African immigrants getting into Harvard is going to change that in your opinion? Because Appalachia surely is still a problem even with all those rich white boys buying their spots at Harvard.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 15:04
Subject: Re:URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."
You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.
DP.
Numbers don't lie.
I’m white. This chart actually shows that Black kids have SATs almost as high the SATs of the white kids and probably have a lot of test score overlap with the white kids, especially after you adjust for high school quality.
Why are you assuming that those black kids aren't coming from privates?
Well, if I’m wrong, adjust for that and show me. But it could well be the Black kids from private schools and UMC have roughly the same stats as the white kids.
Even if that’s incorrect, segregation, racism and race-related poverty are blights on our society that hurt us all. If letting some Black kids get into Harvard with slightly below average SATs can somehow help reduce race-related income, wealth and health gaps, then, seriously, go for it. Any costs related to that are very small when compared with the harm done by race-related poverty.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 14:53
Subject: Re:URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."
You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.
DP.
Numbers don't lie.
I’m white. This chart actually shows that Black kids have SATs almost as high the SATs of the white kids and probably have a lot of test score overlap with the white kids, especially after you adjust for high school quality.
+1 and those test scores for Black students is top 0.5% as compared to the top 5% for white students.
And we don’t have “extraordinary talent and effort” scores. Maybe the Black kids admitted have higher scores in connection with self-driven activities. Maybe the other kids do have a lot of rich kid/rich kid accomplishments, like research papers done at high-cost summer programs, but the lower-SAT Black kids have held responsible paid jobs, cared for special needs siblings, brought important programs to their schools, or done other things that really stand out and were about more than checking a box.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 14:38
Subject: Re:URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."
You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.
DP.
The chart doesn’t support that URM students are getting into Harvard (or Yale) with 1090 scores. The chart supports that the scores are at least at the 90% percentile, which is why the OP called BS on the original post. Big difference between 1090 and 1390. The OP didn’t claim that the scores for URM students are the SAME for white and Asian students.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 11:21
Subject: Re:URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Cry me a River Op.
If you’re not a white, Christian, male in America then you have to prove yourself. Period.
Black, Hispanic, South Asian, East Asian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or a woman. You are marked. You have a stereotype that is woven into the fabric of this country.
Sucks to suck.
- I’m 3 of the above, lucky me.
If you’re not a white, Christian, male in America then you have to prove yourself. Period.
Black, Hispanic, South Asian, East Asian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or a woman. You are marked. You have a stereotype that is woven into the fabric of this country.
Sucks to suck.
- I’m 3 of the above, lucky me.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 11:07
Subject: URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I was a biracial white-passing minority at an elite college in the 90s and knew immediately literally everyone in my class was far smarter and cutthroat. It was awful. And in January of my first year my advisors were trying to get me to consider the easiest majors just because I aced an easy intro class everyone aces. Not try harder and here’s some resources, they just wanted me in an easy department. Being the dumb kid sucks. EVERYONE knows you only got in because of affirmative action. Not to say most peers are mean and won’t socialize with you, it’s just you can tell they know you’re not on their level.
If you didn't have such an inferiority complex, you'd realize that's seasoned advice from academic advisors who have been around the block. They know the dim students never "catch up" to peers from cutthroat magnets and elite prep schools in 3.5 years. Kids are baked in the cake by age 19.
So true, my kid who graduated from TJ few years ago said his top 10 university (STEM double major) was actually easier than TJ and graduated with 4.0 gpa from the university. He never received A- from any classes.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 10:57
Subject: URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:I was a biracial white-passing minority at an elite college in the 90s and knew immediately literally everyone in my class was far smarter and cutthroat. It was awful. And in January of my first year my advisors were trying to get me to consider the easiest majors just because I aced an easy intro class everyone aces. Not try harder and here’s some resources, they just wanted me in an easy department. Being the dumb kid sucks. EVERYONE knows you only got in because of affirmative action. Not to say most peers are mean and won’t socialize with you, it’s just you can tell they know you’re not on their level.
If you didn't have such an inferiority complex, you'd realize that's seasoned advice from academic advisors who have been around the block. They know the dim students never "catch up" to peers from cutthroat magnets and elite prep schools in 3.5 years. Kids are baked in the cake by age 19.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 10:26
Subject: URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:White people exaggerate the benefit of being URM, , and Asian Americans exaggerate the handicap of being Asian.
(And I say this as someone from a family that is mixed Caucasian/Asian).
+1
Spot on.
Asian Americans in general actually understate the harm from the AA since many Asians tend not to complaint.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 10:18
Subject: URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:White people exaggerate the benefit of being URM, , and Asian Americans exaggerate the handicap of being Asian.
(And I say this as someone from a family that is mixed Caucasian/Asian).
+1
Spot on.
Anonymous
01/27/2023 10:01
Subject: Re:URMs Feeling Pressure to Prove Themselves
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:"DP here. URMs absolutely have lower test scores and GPAs for admittance to T25. You have to be really, really, really out of the loop not to know that. White kids and Asian kids would never get admitted with most of the URM scores and GPAs. It is not good or bad, it just is."
You're clueless. Their scores as a group might be lower that those of the wealthy white kids with professional parents who attended college. But no POC at a top school is getting in with a score that low. It would be pretty difficult to keep up with the ultra high achievers if you couldn't at least score in the top quintile, and it's really rare for URM students to flunk out of the most elite schools.
DP.
Numbers don't lie.
I’m white. This chart actually shows that Black kids have SATs almost as high the SATs of the white kids and probably have a lot of test score overlap with the white kids, especially after you adjust for high school quality.
Why are you assuming that those black kids aren't coming from privates?
+1 and have UMC educated parents?
fix.. "And don't have UMC educated parents"?
Around my neighborhood, we have several education, UMC black parents. They have more degrees combined from better univ than my spouse and I (not URM).
Yet you still live in the same neighborhood.
Yes, because we are much older than they are, worked hard, and saved, and moved from a higher col area so for us, the houses here were cheaper.
I went to a cheap no name state u because I came from a poor background.