Anonymous wrote:This thread cracks me up.

Native Americans, who mostly call themselves Indians, aren't a monolithic group of people. Tribes fought tribes and drove tribes off lands and were just as warlike as any people anywhere in the world. So what tribe owned the land in the first place? Because they just replaced whoever was there before.

Nor am I sure why some people think borders are racist. I lived for decades outside the US in non white countries and people were certainty very protective of borders and strong cultural identities.

Why do people say things like this? Who cares? How is this relevant to colonizers? It doesn't excuse it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

You didn't already know that?

I figured it out when I was 3 or 4 and dealing with siblings and classmates.

To the victor go the spoils. I guess people these days want to enjoy the spoils but just don't want the losers to feel bad about it. But, the former have no intention of ever giving up the spoils.

People like Americans and the Brits have the luxury of crying crocodile tears about what our ancestors did because we've typically been on the winning side of history.

Sure, some people will do self-flagellating land acknowledgments and other similar meaningless stuff. But, no, we're not giving American Indians our. That's not how the grown up world works.

So the 523 federally recognized tribes in the US are….not grown-ups? Very white supremacist of you.

The ones who want the colonizers to go home sound pretty childish.

Your viewing this through the wrong lens.

Land-back is not about the colonizers “going home.” It’s about the colonizers giving the land back to its rightful historical heirs - the indigenous peoples of the so-called US. That’s why we have collectively pivoted to Indigenous Peoples day.

Who is "we?" Well-off liberals?

OK, so we give the land back to the tribes. Then what? Do the rest of us live on it like renters or serfs? Do they have to collect the taxes and run the local governments?

We - means just about everybody.

Except you apparently!


https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1087290.page

Still celebrating Columbus Day over here...

An Italian guy, traveling under a Spanish flag, who likely was not the first to land in North America and likely landed in Hispaniola? Don't even start on his atrocities on the people there.

What exactly are you celebrating? And why are you so proud of that?

Anonymous wrote:This thread cracks me up.

Native Americans, who mostly call themselves Indians, aren't a monolithic group of people. Tribes fought tribes and drove tribes off lands and were just as warlike as any people anywhere in the world. So what tribe owned the land in the first place? Because they just replaced whoever was there before.

Nor am I sure why some people think borders are racist. I lived for decades outside the US in non white countries and people were certainty very protective of borders and strong cultural identities.

What does that have to do with the fact that the US government signed treaties with East Coast tribes that said, if you give up you land east of the Mississippi and move to Indian Territory, we will not bother you any more, and then fifty years later passed a law that broke up that tribal territory and sold it off, while the original treaty was still in effect (and is to this day, as recently reaffirmed by the Supreme Court in McGirt v Oklahoma)? This isn't about land won via battle. This is about the US federal government and state governments allowing white settlers to illegally occupy Indian land and then assume title via adverse possession, or to take it via the Dawes Act and parcelization and redistribution which violated the various treaties.

These are legal issues. When you buy a house or property, you have to do a title search. If it belongs to someone else, you can't buy it until it has a clean title. The issue now is that much of the land in dispute are not the unmapped areas held by long-ago tribes that no one can name. They are the territories with borders negotiated by the US government with existing tribes, which were taken in the 19th century, all of which is documented through maps, court decisions, and Congressional hearings. Questions of ownership and compensation can be resolved.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

OMG your reading comprehension is so poor and your knowledge of US history is apparently non-existent. The US didn't annex most territories by fighting wars. The country signed legal agreements with sovereign nations that believed they were negotiating in good faith. The Senate ratified the treaties and the President signed them. This isn't a "winners vs losers" issue. This is "the United States government is refusing to pay its legal debts and honor its promises" issue. If you are a citizen of the US, this is actually your problem.

You are quite foolish if you do not understand that war is fought in many ways. The winners still win and the losers still lose even if a single shot was never fired.

So you support open borders

International borders are inherently racist and not at all progressive.

The right to political self-determination of a people is a highly progressive notion. That's what borders are for.

This thread cracks me up.

Native Americans, who mostly call themselves Indians, aren't a monolithic group of people. Tribes fought tribes and drove tribes off lands and were just as warlike as any people anywhere in the world. So what tribe owned the land in the first place? Because they just replaced whoever was there before.

Nor am I sure why some people think borders are racist. I lived for decades outside the US in non white countries and people were certainty very protective of borders and strong cultural identities.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

You didn't already know that?

I figured it out when I was 3 or 4 and dealing with siblings and classmates.

To the victor go the spoils. I guess people these days want to enjoy the spoils but just don't want the losers to feel bad about it. But, the former have no intention of ever giving up the spoils.

People like Americans and the Brits have the luxury of crying crocodile tears about what our ancestors did because we've typically been on the winning side of history.

Sure, some people will do self-flagellating land acknowledgments and other similar meaningless stuff. But, no, we're not giving American Indians our. That's not how the grown up world works.

So the 523 federally recognized tribes in the US are….not grown-ups? Very white supremacist of you.

The ones who want the colonizers to go home sound pretty childish.

Your viewing this through the wrong lens.

Land-back is not about the colonizers “going home.” It’s about the colonizers giving the land back to its rightful historical heirs - the indigenous peoples of the so-called US. That’s why we have collectively pivoted to Indigenous Peoples day.

Who is "we?" Well-off liberals?

OK, so we give the land back to the tribes. Then what? Do the rest of us live on it like renters or serfs? Do they have to collect the taxes and run the local governments?

We - means just about everybody.

Except you apparently!


https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1087290.page

Still celebrating Columbus Day over here...

Anonymous wrote:For correct land acknowledgment, here is an excellent and useful starting point for knowing which stolen land you currently occupy:

https://www.npr.org/2022/10/10/1127837659/native-land-map-ancestral-tribal-lands-worldwide

I don't occupy anyone else's land. Those people "who didn't believe in owning land" are dead. I laugh at anyone who makes these bizarre pronouncements.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

OMG your reading comprehension is so poor and your knowledge of US history is apparently non-existent. The US didn't annex most territories by fighting wars. The country signed legal agreements with sovereign nations that believed they were negotiating in good faith. The Senate ratified the treaties and the President signed them. This isn't a "winners vs losers" issue. This is "the United States government is refusing to pay its legal debts and honor its promises" issue. If you are a citizen of the US, this is actually your problem.

You are quite foolish if you do not understand that war is fought in many ways. The winners still win and the losers still lose even if a single shot was never fired.

So you support open borders

Open borders seems to conflict with Land-Back, since they want to revert to old borders and enforce them by removing everyone within those borders who do not belong.

Their enforcement mechanism seems to hope and white guilt, in general.

Wait - I thought we had to strive for open trade and open borders, to advance globalization?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

OMG your reading comprehension is so poor and your knowledge of US history is apparently non-existent. The US didn't annex most territories by fighting wars. The country signed legal agreements with sovereign nations that believed they were negotiating in good faith. The Senate ratified the treaties and the President signed them. This isn't a "winners vs losers" issue. This is "the United States government is refusing to pay its legal debts and honor its promises" issue. If you are a citizen of the US, this is actually your problem.

You are quite foolish if you do not understand that war is fought in many ways. The winners still win and the losers still lose even if a single shot was never fired.

So you support open borders

Open borders seems to conflict with Land-Back, since they want to revert to old borders and enforce them by removing everyone within those borders who do not belong.

Their enforcement mechanism seems to hope and white guilt, in general.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

OMG your reading comprehension is so poor and your knowledge of US history is apparently non-existent. The US didn't annex most territories by fighting wars. The country signed legal agreements with sovereign nations that believed they were negotiating in good faith. The Senate ratified the treaties and the President signed them. This isn't a "winners vs losers" issue. This is "the United States government is refusing to pay its legal debts and honor its promises" issue. If you are a citizen of the US, this is actually your problem.

You are quite foolish if you do not understand that war is fought in many ways. The winners still win and the losers still lose even if a single shot was never fired.

So you support open borders

International borders are inherently racist and not at all progressive.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

You didn't already know that?

I figured it out when I was 3 or 4 and dealing with siblings and classmates.

To the victor go the spoils. I guess people these days want to enjoy the spoils but just don't want the losers to feel bad about it. But, the former have no intention of ever giving up the spoils.

People like Americans and the Brits have the luxury of crying crocodile tears about what our ancestors did because we've typically been on the winning side of history.

Sure, some people will do self-flagellating land acknowledgments and other similar meaningless stuff. But, no, we're not giving American Indians our. That's not how the grown up world works.

So the 523 federally recognized tribes in the US are….not grown-ups? Very white supremacist of you.

The ones who want the colonizers to go home sound pretty childish.

Your viewing this through the wrong lens.

Land-back is not about the colonizers “going home.” It’s about the colonizers giving the land back to its rightful historical heirs - the indigenous peoples of the so-called US. That’s why we have collectively pivoted to Indigenous Peoples day.

Good luck with that. No one is giving their land back to anyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

You didn't already know that?

I figured it out when I was 3 or 4 and dealing with siblings and classmates.

To the victor go the spoils. I guess people these days want to enjoy the spoils but just don't want the losers to feel bad about it. But, the former have no intention of ever giving up the spoils.

People like Americans and the Brits have the luxury of crying crocodile tears about what our ancestors did because we've typically been on the winning side of history.

Sure, some people will do self-flagellating land acknowledgments and other similar meaningless stuff. But, no, we're not giving American Indians our. That's not how the grown up world works.

So the 523 federally recognized tribes in the US are….not grown-ups? Very white supremacist of you.

The ones who want the colonizers to go home sound pretty childish.

Your viewing this through the wrong lens.

Land-back is not about the colonizers “going home.” It’s about the colonizers giving the land back to its rightful historical heirs - the indigenous peoples of the so-called US. That’s why we have collectively pivoted to Indigenous Peoples day.

Who is "we?" Well-off liberals?

OK, so we give the land back to the tribes. Then what? Do the rest of us live on it like renters or serfs? Do they have to collect the taxes and run the local governments?

We - means just about everybody.

Except you apparently!


https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1087290.page

Ah, people on DCUM. So well-off liberals after all?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

OMG your reading comprehension is so poor and your knowledge of US history is apparently non-existent. The US didn't annex most territories by fighting wars. The country signed legal agreements with sovereign nations that believed they were negotiating in good faith. The Senate ratified the treaties and the President signed them. This isn't a "winners vs losers" issue. This is "the United States government is refusing to pay its legal debts and honor its promises" issue. If you are a citizen of the US, this is actually your problem.

You are quite foolish if you do not understand that war is fought in many ways. The winners still win and the losers still lose even if a single shot was never fired.

So you support open borders

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

You didn't already know that?

I figured it out when I was 3 or 4 and dealing with siblings and classmates.

To the victor go the spoils. I guess people these days want to enjoy the spoils but just don't want the losers to feel bad about it. But, the former have no intention of ever giving up the spoils.

People like Americans and the Brits have the luxury of crying crocodile tears about what our ancestors did because we've typically been on the winning side of history.

Sure, some people will do self-flagellating land acknowledgments and other similar meaningless stuff. But, no, we're not giving American Indians our. That's not how the grown up world works.

So the 523 federally recognized tribes in the US are….not grown-ups? Very white supremacist of you.

The ones who want the colonizers to go home sound pretty childish.

Your viewing this through the wrong lens.

Land-back is not about the colonizers “going home.” It’s about the colonizers giving the land back to its rightful historical heirs - the indigenous peoples of the so-called US. That’s why we have collectively pivoted to Indigenous Peoples day.

Who is "we?" Well-off liberals?

OK, so we give the land back to the tribes. Then what? Do the rest of us live on it like renters or serfs? Do they have to collect the taxes and run the local governments?

We - means just about everybody.

Except you apparently!


https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1087290.page

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My ancestors once owned most of Europe and then got pushed to the edge of the North Atlantic and dominated by England for 1500 years. I seek to know what they did wrong.

That’s probably irrelevant, but if you are a citizen of a country like the UK, which still has colonies, or the US, which is currently violating treaties with tribal governments, you are—as a current citizen of a democratic government—responsible for what *your* country is doing *now* and to address prior wrongs of the country you are a citizen of. You can’t inherit guilt but you do inherit the responsibilities of your country.

I think I have learned that rule number one in human history is don’t lose wars.

You didn't already know that?

I figured it out when I was 3 or 4 and dealing with siblings and classmates.

To the victor go the spoils. I guess people these days want to enjoy the spoils but just don't want the losers to feel bad about it. But, the former have no intention of ever giving up the spoils.

People like Americans and the Brits have the luxury of crying crocodile tears about what our ancestors did because we've typically been on the winning side of history.

Sure, some people will do self-flagellating land acknowledgments and other similar meaningless stuff. But, no, we're not giving American Indians our. That's not how the grown up world works.

So the 523 federally recognized tribes in the US are….not grown-ups? Very white supremacist of you.

The ones who want the colonizers to go home sound pretty childish.

Your viewing this through the wrong lens.

Land-back is not about the colonizers “going home.” It’s about the colonizers giving the land back to its rightful historical heirs - the indigenous peoples of the so-called US. That’s why we have collectively pivoted to Indigenous Peoples day.

Keep dreaming the impossible dream. They are never getting "their" land back.

Ok, then just pay for it—outright, or rent. The boundaries of many territories are clearly mapped and the tribal governments have been in continuous existence since the agreements were signed, so it’s not impossible to figure out.

You will get the value of the unimproved land that the government was practically giving away at the time. Not the value of the improved land that other's blood, sweat, and tears, made into what it was today. That windfall you were expecting isn't going to happen.