Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The SB's job is not to build affordable housing. That belongs to the supervisors.
The SB's job is to educate the children in the most effective way with the resources they are given. We can talk all day about building affordable housing,but that is the future--just as building a new high school.

For now, the boundaries should reflect in this order:
proximity/commute time
community (keeping feeder schools together as much as possible)
SES should be considered when possible--but not to require busing past other communities


Obviously, schools like Langley which is at the edge of the county will have strange boundaries. There is no way to draw a circle around Langley--because then you are in Arlington. That is just a fact.

I mostly agree with this post, although I can’t figure out if you omitted capacity in your list or if it is implied in your resources comment and you felt it unnecessary to list? Because capacity needs to be utilize Id as much as possible as the rest of the factors are considered. Obviously long bus rides are NOT the ideal way to deal with school boundary issues.

PP here. I just assumed that consideration of capacity is a given.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to a better job of focusing on economic development and housing policy to combat SES-based segregation. You can do some modest level of redistricting and bussing to improve balance at schools wherever reasonable/feasible, but unless you address the underlying root issue you're just going to have to contort these strategies farther and farther over time to achieve some semblance of balance or equity, and we're already basically at the point where the costs begin to outweigh the benefits in many cases.

This is a long-term issue, and instead we're debating over which band-aids are the right ones to apply. That's not to say you can't have both long-term AND short-term strategies, but overall the policy focus for addressing these challenges seems terribly myopic and neglecting the changes we'd need to make for sustainable solutions.

Face it, most of the really needy kids are a result of our lack of border control. There were lots that came in when Obama ordered DACA. Those were unaccompanied. Do you really think Fairfax should be providing condos for them?

PP... I am open to "facing that" if someone can show me some stats to support the assertion... but my instinct is that disparity amongst schools based on SES segregation is a far, far larger issue than whatever volume of kids have been / are entering the country (and settling in Fairfax County, VA). Furthermore the geographic segregation has been going on for decades, and while it's not like we need to strive to attain some strawman notion of perfectly even distribution, there's certainly some common sense things we can be doing such as policy to direct new AH developments proximal to areas with >median income (rather than locating new AH in areas that would exacerbate already-concentrated povery / low-income), etc.

Dear LORD, out here in Western FFX county, SES and illegal immigration are one and the same

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone is completely fine with the 16+ mile bus rides in Langley district, they should be more than fine bussing in some high FARM apartment complexes from Herndon to Langley high school.

Langley can take some apartment complexes zoned to crowded McLean and Marshall that are a lot closer than 16 miles from the school.

Yup. And I can tell you Great Falls residents have no issues with that.

Anonymous wrote:The SB's job is not to build affordable housing. That belongs to the supervisors.
The SB's job is to educate the children in the most effective way with the resources they are given. We can talk all day about building affordable housing,but that is the future--just as building a new high school.

For now, the boundaries should reflect in this order:
proximity/commute time
community (keeping feeder schools together as much as possible)
SES should be considered when possible--but not to require busing past other communities


Obviously, schools like Langley which is at the edge of the county will have strange boundaries. There is no way to draw a circle around Langley--because then you are in Arlington. That is just a fact.

I mostly agree with this post, although I can’t figure out if you omitted capacity in your list or if it is implied in your resources comment and you felt it unnecessary to list? Because capacity needs to be utilized as much as possible as the rest of the factors are considered. Obviously long bus rides are NOT the ideal way to deal with school boundary issues.

Yup, certainly can!

Anonymous wrote:If everyone is completely fine with the 16+ mile bus rides in Langley district, they should be more than fine bussing in some high FARM apartment complexes from Herndon to Langley high school.

Langley can take some apartment complexes zoned to crowded McLean and Marshall that are a lot closer than 16 miles from the school.

Anonymous wrote:If everyone is completely fine with the 16+ mile bus rides in Langley district, they should be more than fine bussing in some high FARM apartment complexes from Herndon to Langley high school.

Do you think the FARMs kids want to be bused to Langley? I went to a school were kids were bused and the bused kids were barely seen at the school. They did not aprticipate in extra curriculars, they didn’t have the time. There were no real oppertunities to socialize outside of school because they had an hour commute. I suspect that most of those kids woud have prefered to stay at their base school. We talk about bussing as a solution when there is evidence that it is not.

I am not going to pretend that I have the solution but the kids who you are talking about might prefer to stay in a school where their friends are located, they have oppertunities to participate in other activities, and were they don’t feel ike they are a social experiment of some sort.

If everyone is completely fine with the 16+ mile bus rides in Langley district, they should be more than fine bussing in some high FARM apartment complexes from Herndon to Langley high school.

The SB's job is not to build affordable housing. That belongs to the supervisors.
The SB's job is to educate the children in the most effective way with the resources they are given. We can talk all day about building affordable housing,but that is the future--just as building a new high school.

For now, the boundaries should reflect in this order:
proximity/commute time
community (keeping feeder schools together as much as possible)
SES should be considered when possible--but not to require busing past other communities


Obviously, schools like Langley which is at the edge of the county will have strange boundaries. There is no way to draw a circle around Langley--because then you are in Arlington. That is just a fact.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to a better job of focusing on economic development and housing policy to combat SES-based segregation. You can do some modest level of redistricting and bussing to improve balance at schools wherever reasonable/feasible, but unless you address the underlying root issue you're just going to have to contort these strategies farther and farther over time to achieve some semblance of balance or equity, and we're already basically at the point where the costs begin to outweigh the benefits in many cases.

This is a long-term issue, and instead we're debating over which band-aids are the right ones to apply. That's not to say you can't have both long-term AND short-term strategies, but overall the policy focus for addressing these challenges seems terribly myopic and neglecting the changes we'd need to make for sustainable solutions.

Face it, most of the really needy kids are a result of our lack of border control. There were lots that came in when Obama ordered DACA. Those were unaccompanied. Do you really think Fairfax should be providing condos for them?

PP... I am open to "facing that" if someone can show me some stats to support the assertion... but my instinct is that disparity amongst schools based on SES segregation is a far, far larger issue than whatever volume of kids have been / are entering the country (and settling in Fairfax County, VA). Furthermore the geographic segregation has been going on for decades, and while it's not like we need to strive to attain some strawman notion of perfectly even distribution, there's certainly some common sense things we can be doing such as policy to direct new AH developments proximal to areas with >median income (rather than locating new AH in areas that would exacerbate already-concentrated povery / low-income), etc.

Do you have any idea of the immigrant volume some Fairfax schools have seen in the last 10-15 years? Lee's poverty rate did not go up over 30% (most for a high school in the county) because we imported a bunch of poor US citizens. So much of the SES segregation is because of the students entering the county.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to a better job of focusing on economic development and housing policy to combat SES-based segregation. You can do some modest level of redistricting and bussing to improve balance at schools wherever reasonable/feasible, but unless you address the underlying root issue you're just going to have to contort these strategies farther and farther over time to achieve some semblance of balance or equity, and we're already basically at the point where the costs begin to outweigh the benefits in many cases.

This is a long-term issue, and instead we're debating over which band-aids are the right ones to apply. That's not to say you can't have both long-term AND short-term strategies, but overall the policy focus for addressing these challenges seems terribly myopic and neglecting the changes we'd need to make for sustainable solutions.

Face it, most of the really needy kids are a result of our lack of border control. There were lots that came in when Obama ordered DACA. Those were unaccompanied. Do you really think Fairfax should be providing condos for them?

PP... I am open to "facing that" if someone can show me some stats to support the assertion... but my instinct is that disparity amongst schools based on SES segregation is a far, far larger issue than whatever volume of kids have been / are entering the country (and settling in Fairfax County, VA). Furthermore the geographic segregation has been going on for decades, and while it's not like we need to strive to attain some strawman notion of perfectly even distribution, there's certainly some common sense things we can be doing such as policy to direct new AH developments proximal to areas with >median income (rather than locating new AH in areas that would exacerbate already-concentrated povery / low-income), etc.

DP, but it would help if you could articulate the problem you are trying to solve and then explain how your solution addresses that problem.

How would putting AH developments in the middle of Great Falls or Fairfax Station help anyone? Would tearing down the slum-like garden apartments in Culmore sufficiently improve the lives of those uprooted to justify the significant cost?

It’s hard to avoid concluding that you may really just be looking for government action intended to subsidize middle-income homeowners who live near lower SES families at the expense of those who have invested in other, more expensive areas. What you call “common sense” likely is tantamount to “theft” in the eyes of others, at least not accompanied by a compelling rationale for doing what you’re proposing.

What about when wealthier neighborhoods get moved out of poorer schools? Aren't we giving those people value? Aren't the people left behind getting robbed? It works both ways. In Fairfax recently this is the only way it has worked.

No one is entitled to a particular school. Close proximity and capacity numbers should dominate the decisions, but after that there should be some attempt at avoiding making any particular school a pariah (by say, concentrating poverty).

And affordable housing can be put in areas that would feed the wealthier schools. It wouldn't be in the heart of Great Falls, but it would be in Tysons where Langley could pull some students to bring its F/R rate up from 1.5%. Woodson's rate has remained pretty low all these years despite the fact that it sits on a main thoroughfare where you think they might build more affordable housing to take advantage of potential bus routes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to a better job of focusing on economic development and housing policy to combat SES-based segregation. You can do some modest level of redistricting and bussing to improve balance at schools wherever reasonable/feasible, but unless you address the underlying root issue you're just going to have to contort these strategies farther and farther over time to achieve some semblance of balance or equity, and we're already basically at the point where the costs begin to outweigh the benefits in many cases.

This is a long-term issue, and instead we're debating over which band-aids are the right ones to apply. That's not to say you can't have both long-term AND short-term strategies, but overall the policy focus for addressing these challenges seems terribly myopic and neglecting the changes we'd need to make for sustainable solutions.

Face it, most of the really needy kids are a result of our lack of border control. There were lots that came in when Obama ordered DACA. Those were unaccompanied. Do you really think Fairfax should be providing condos for them?

PP... I am open to "facing that" if someone can show me some stats to support the assertion... but my instinct is that disparity amongst schools based on SES segregation is a far, far larger issue than whatever volume of kids have been / are entering the country (and settling in Fairfax County, VA). Furthermore the geographic segregation has been going on for decades, and while it's not like we need to strive to attain some strawman notion of perfectly even distribution, there's certainly some common sense things we can be doing such as policy to direct new AH developments proximal to areas with >median income (rather than locating new AH in areas that would exacerbate already-concentrated povery / low-income), etc.

DP, but it would help if you could articulate the problem you are trying to solve and then explain how your solution addresses that problem.

How would putting AH developments in the middle of Great Falls or Fairfax Station help anyone? Would tearing down the slum-like garden apartments in Culmore sufficiently improve the lives of those uprooted to justify the significant cost?

It’s hard to avoid concluding that you may really just be looking for government action intended to subsidize middle-income homeowners who live near lower SES families at the expense of those who have invested in other, more expensive areas. What you call “common sense” likely is tantamount to “theft” in the eyes of others, at least not accompanied by a compelling rationale for doing what you’re proposing.

I agree with the poster who is saying that the SES segregation needs to be dealt with systemically.

I generally support community schools, but of course, I also wish our schools were diverse utopias where people of all income levels and abilities came together. I realize this isn't anywhere CLOSE to reality.

Yes, housing policy and economic development would help. And I certainly don't think starting a busing program is going to work. The school board certainly should first address capacity/space issues. And if there is a way to do a little rearranging of boundaries to change the SES distribution of the student body, I think that should be a consideration.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to a better job of focusing on economic development and housing policy to combat SES-based segregation. You can do some modest level of redistricting and bussing to improve balance at schools wherever reasonable/feasible, but unless you address the underlying root issue you're just going to have to contort these strategies farther and farther over time to achieve some semblance of balance or equity, and we're already basically at the point where the costs begin to outweigh the benefits in many cases.

This is a long-term issue, and instead we're debating over which band-aids are the right ones to apply. That's not to say you can't have both long-term AND short-term strategies, but overall the policy focus for addressing these challenges seems terribly myopic and neglecting the changes we'd need to make for sustainable solutions.

Face it, most of the really needy kids are a result of our lack of border control. There were lots that came in when Obama ordered DACA. Those were unaccompanied. Do you really think Fairfax should be providing condos for them?

PP... I am open to "facing that" if someone can show me some stats to support the assertion... but my instinct is that disparity amongst schools based on SES segregation is a far, far larger issue than whatever volume of kids have been / are entering the country (and settling in Fairfax County, VA). Furthermore the geographic segregation has been going on for decades, and while it's not like we need to strive to attain some strawman notion of perfectly even distribution, there's certainly some common sense things we can be doing such as policy to direct new AH developments proximal to areas with >median income (rather than locating new AH in areas that would exacerbate already-concentrated povery / low-income), etc.

I have a friend who teaches at one of the high FARMS ESL schools in FCPS. He/She will tell you all about the fact that the kids coming from Honduras struggle in school for a variety of reasons. 1) They tend to start school later then we do in the US so they are being put in a higher grade then they would have been at home 2) Most of the kids have missed a lot of school while traveling to the US and are not in a position to do well in the grade they would have been at their home ES, never mind a grade a head. 3) Most of the kids are in a certain degree of shock from having to leave their country, come to a new country and start school. And He/She says most of the new kids at his/her school are seeking to legally stay in the US based on a refugee case.

So while there has been a history of economic segregation, the increasing number of ESL kids coming from Latin America is an issue and one that schools are trying their hardest to address.

I get that the above is anecdotal in nature and not hard facts but the increase in the number of students in the high FARMS/ESL schools compared to other schools is pretty stark.

And I don't think that the solution is busing kids. I don't know what the solution is but I seriously doubt that redrawing boundaries will provide the solution that some people think that it will. There might be a small uptick in the percentage of FARMS/ESL kids that end up in the low FARMs/ESL schools but it will not be close to an even distribution. And I don't think that it is a problem that is solved by throwing money at it. And it is a problem that we are going to have to deal with because no one on the School Board or in the local governments is going to be able to change Federal Policy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to a better job of focusing on economic development and housing policy to combat SES-based segregation. You can do some modest level of redistricting and bussing to improve balance at schools wherever reasonable/feasible, but unless you address the underlying root issue you're just going to have to contort these strategies farther and farther over time to achieve some semblance of balance or equity, and we're already basically at the point where the costs begin to outweigh the benefits in many cases.

This is a long-term issue, and instead we're debating over which band-aids are the right ones to apply. That's not to say you can't have both long-term AND short-term strategies, but overall the policy focus for addressing these challenges seems terribly myopic and neglecting the changes we'd need to make for sustainable solutions.

Face it, most of the really needy kids are a result of our lack of border control. There were lots that came in when Obama ordered DACA. Those were unaccompanied. Do you really think Fairfax should be providing condos for them?

PP... I am open to "facing that" if someone can show me some stats to support the assertion... but my instinct is that disparity amongst schools based on SES segregation is a far, far larger issue than whatever volume of kids have been / are entering the country (and settling in Fairfax County, VA). Furthermore the geographic segregation has been going on for decades, and while it's not like we need to strive to attain some strawman notion of perfectly even distribution, there's certainly some common sense things we can be doing such as policy to direct new AH developments proximal to areas with >median income (rather than locating new AH in areas that would exacerbate already-concentrated povery / low-income), etc.