Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a wohm. I admit that it’s a constant struggle between wanting to spend time with kids but also working. I want both! I spent so many years in school and am excited about my career. I also love my kids! I look for flexible jobs that will allow me to be home early to pick them up from preschool.

I sometimes feel guilty when sahms say, “i want to be there for my kids,” “family first,” “i could never send them to daycare/nanny,” “can’t trust anyone,” etc.

At work, I feel bad for having to draw the line and say I can’t do certain things bc of my kids.

It would be amazing if the sahms and wohms, non parents - EVERYONE- understood that raising good kids is a benefit to society. If that means wohms who have more flexible schedules offer other wohms to carpool more or sahms offer to help the wahms bc they have more time, that would be great! Employers understanding that parents (not just moms) need flexibility is amaing. We need everyone to help each other and not just focus on our nuclear family. If we did this, society would be so mich better off

I don't. Seriously, I don't care what you do, but the minute a woman says something suggesting that women who work don't love their kids as much, I write them off as a piece of shit. Seriously. I don't care what you do, but insinuating that other mothers don't love their kids makes you a garbage person. Period. It's worse, IMO, than thinking that women who stay at home are lazy or whatever.

Do whatever you want--work, don't--but keep your sanctimonious self-justification to yourself.

Yep.

Your reaction is an eye-opener. If someone suggested that I am not a good mom, I would just laugh. Your reaction suggests that you are well aware that you fall short in giving your time to your child. That's why even a perceived suggestion makes you mad.

And who are you to decide that calling a SAHM as lazy is less egregious? I think a woman who leaves her high paying job to put in the effort to raise her child herself is far better than one who pays someone else a low salary to look after her child. It shows what you value. You are able to put a low dollar amount to the effort of spending the time with your own child. Unless your salary is being earned so that you can put a roof over your head and feed your family, you have no moral high ground to stand on.

As a WOHM, how are you helping other WOHMs? How are you fighting for better conditions for all parents at your workplace? Oh, you are doing nothing? I thought so.

Anonymous wrote:Why not just give adult women the credit of being able to make good choices for their own circumstances, whatever those might be?

For some, that is working. For others, it is staying home. For many, it is a combination.

For many women, it's deciding not to have kids at all!

All choices are valid.

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a wohm. I admit that it’s a constant struggle between wanting to spend time with kids but also working. I want both! I spent so many years in school and am excited about my career. I also love my kids! I look for flexible jobs that will allow me to be home early to pick them up from preschool.

I sometimes feel guilty when sahms say, “i want to be there for my kids,” “family first,” “i could never send them to daycare/nanny,” “can’t trust anyone,” etc.

At work, I feel bad for having to draw the line and say I can’t do certain things bc of my kids.

It would be amazing if the sahms and wohms, non parents - EVERYONE- understood that raising good kids is a benefit to society. If that means wohms who have more flexible schedules offer other wohms to carpool more or sahms offer to help the wahms bc they have more time, that would be great! Employers understanding that parents (not just moms) need flexibility is amaing. We need everyone to help each other and not just focus on our nuclear family. If we did this, society would be so mich better off

I don't. Seriously, I don't care what you do, but the minute a woman says something suggesting that women who work don't love their kids as much, I write them off as a piece of shit. Seriously. I don't care what you do, but insinuating that other mothers don't love their kids makes you a garbage person. Period. It's worse, IMO, than thinking that women who stay at home are lazy or whatever.

Do whatever you want--work, don't--but keep your sanctimonious self-justification to yourself.

Yep.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a wohm. I admit that it’s a constant struggle between wanting to spend time with kids but also working. I want both! I spent so many years in school and am excited about my career. I also love my kids! I look for flexible jobs that will allow me to be home early to pick them up from preschool.

I sometimes feel guilty when sahms say, “i want to be there for my kids,” “family first,” “i could never send them to daycare/nanny,” “can’t trust anyone,” etc.

At work, I feel bad for having to draw the line and say I can’t do certain things bc of my kids.

It would be amazing if the sahms and wohms, non parents - EVERYONE- understood that raising good kids is a benefit to society. If that means wohms who have more flexible schedules offer other wohms to carpool more or sahms offer to help the wahms bc they have more time, that would be great! Employers understanding that parents (not just moms) need flexibility is amaing. We need everyone to help each other and not just focus on our nuclear family. If we did this, society would be so mich better off

I don't. Seriously, I don't care what you do, but the minute a woman says something suggesting that women who work don't love their kids as much, I write them off as a piece of shit. Seriously. I don't care what you do, but insinuating that other mothers don't love their kids makes you a garbage person. Period. It's worse, IMO, than thinking that women who stay at home are lazy or whatever.

Do whatever you want--work, don't--but keep your sanctimonious self-justification to yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a wohm. I admit that it’s a constant struggle between wanting to spend time with kids but also working. I want both! I spent so many years in school and am excited about my career. I also love my kids! I look for flexible jobs that will allow me to be home early to pick them up from preschool.

I sometimes feel guilty when sahms say, “i want to be there for my kids,” “family first,” “i could never send them to daycare/nanny,” “can’t trust anyone,” etc.

At work, I feel bad for having to draw the line and say I can’t do certain things bc of my kids.

It would be amazing if the sahms and wohms, non parents - EVERYONE- understood that raising good kids is a benefit to society. If that means wohms who have more flexible schedules offer other wohms to carpool more or sahms offer to help the wahms bc they have more time, that would be great! Employers understanding that parents (not just moms) need flexibility is amaing. We need everyone to help each other and not just focus on our nuclear family. If we did this, society would be so mich better off

I don't. Seriously, I don't care what you do, but the minute a woman says something suggesting that women who work don't love their kids as much, I write them off as a piece of shit. Seriously. I don't care what you do, but insinuating that other mothers don't love their kids makes you a garbage person. Period. It's worse, IMO, than thinking that women who stay at home are lazy or whatever.

Do whatever you want--work, don't--but keep your sanctimonious self-justification to yourself.

Anonymous wrote:I am a wohm. I admit that it’s a constant struggle between wanting to spend time with kids but also working. I want both! I spent so many years in school and am excited about my career. I also love my kids! I look for flexible jobs that will allow me to be home early to pick them up from preschool.

I sometimes feel guilty when sahms say, “i want to be there for my kids,” “family first,” “i could never send them to daycare/nanny,” “can’t trust anyone,” etc.

At work, I feel bad for having to draw the line and say I can’t do certain things bc of my kids.

It would be amazing if the sahms and wohms, non parents - EVERYONE- understood that raising good kids is a benefit to society. If that means wohms who have more flexible schedules offer other wohms to carpool more or sahms offer to help the wahms bc they have more time, that would be great! Employers understanding that parents (not just moms) need flexibility is amaing. We need everyone to help each other and not just focus on our nuclear family. If we did this, society would be so mich better off

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t care that some people SAHM. I expect the same and not getting judgement for WOHM. I also expect that we live and let live about expectations. I don’t bake things for the bake sale at school but I appreciate the people who organize it and the warmth and spirit it adds. I buy a lot of baked goods at the sales. I also hope that SAHMs will try to coordinate with me on play dates and try to find a time to either meet with my nanny during the week or find a time on weekends. In SAHM families in my experience the Dad usually does the playdates on weekends and of course that is totally cool.

I totally agree. FWIW, I've worked bake sales from time to time and there seems to be an even mix of SAHPs, WAHPs and WOHMs involved in those fund raisers. They are easy to organize and are a simple way to bring money in. I think there are parents who do bake sales and those that do not. It's not really a SAHM or WOHM issue.

Play dates are usually hosted by the moms. Dads will take kids to the playground or swimming pool to play with the neighborhood kids who happen to be there. There are exceptions, but that is usually the way it works.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

Mic drop, girl. And this is the fundamental issue I have with SAHMs. They are so freaking selfish and narrow-minded. THIS IS WHAT THE WOMEN WHO CAME BEFORE US FOUGHT FOR. but they can’t see the societal consequences (which you so brilliantly outlined).

Eye roll. This feminist crap makes me ill.

That's because you are selfish.

eh, you've just substituted where a woman's place is. It used to be that a woman's place was in the home. Now, you're saying that the only valid place for a woman is on the job.

You are just as rigid in your views towards women but you're not seeing it.

No, I’m not. You are over-reaching. I was responding only to the “feminism makes me ill” PP. Never said anything about a woman’s place. I find women and men who give no thought to anything but themselves and their immediate families nauseating. That selfishness is the root of so many societal ills, more than just women’s rights.

You basically are saying that you don't believe that women should be able to make the decision to SAH because that is selfish of them. I think that women are smart enough to figure these things out for themselves.

No, again you are over-reaching. My only contribution to this string was the "that's because you're selfish". That's it. It was a reaction to someone who would say feminist crap makes them ill rather than actually addressing the previous PPs points. You cannot and should not infer opinions about SAHMs. Don't project your own sh*t and put words in people's mouths.

O.k. I was following along with the conversation and did not realize that you were just responding to that one line. The full context of the conversation and what prompted that "feminism makes me ill" statement did, in fact, involve labeling the decision to be a SAHM as "selfish" and "narrow minded".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

Mic drop, girl. And this is the fundamental issue I have with SAHMs. They are so freaking selfish and narrow-minded. THIS IS WHAT THE WOMEN WHO CAME BEFORE US FOUGHT FOR. but they can’t see the societal consequences (which you so brilliantly outlined).

Eye roll. This feminist crap makes me ill.

That's because you are selfish.

eh, you've just substituted where a woman's place is. It used to be that a woman's place was in the home. Now, you're saying that the only valid place for a woman is on the job.

You are just as rigid in your views towards women but you're not seeing it.

No, I’m not. You are over-reaching. I was responding only to the “feminism makes me ill” PP. Never said anything about a woman’s place. I find women and men who give no thought to anything but themselves and their immediate families nauseating. That selfishness is the root of so many societal ills, more than just women’s rights.

You basically are saying that you don't believe that women should be able to make the decision to SAH because that is selfish of them. I think that women are smart enough to figure these things out for themselves.

No, again you are over-reaching. My only contribution to this string was the "that's because you're selfish". That's it. It was a reaction to someone who would say feminist crap makes them ill rather than actually addressing the previous PPs points. You cannot and should not infer opinions about SAHMs. Don't project your own sh*t and put words in people's mouths.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

Mic drop, girl. And this is the fundamental issue I have with SAHMs. They are so freaking selfish and narrow-minded. THIS IS WHAT THE WOMEN WHO CAME BEFORE US FOUGHT FOR. but they can’t see the societal consequences (which you so brilliantly outlined).

Eye roll. This feminist crap makes me ill.

That's because you are selfish.

eh, you've just substituted where a woman's place is. It used to be that a woman's place was in the home. Now, you're saying that the only valid place for a woman is on the job.

You are just as rigid in your views towards women but you're not seeing it.

No, I’m not. You are over-reaching. I was responding only to the “feminism makes me ill” PP. Never said anything about a woman’s place. I find women and men who give no thought to anything but themselves and their immediate families nauseating. That selfishness is the root of so many societal ills, more than just women’s rights.

You basically are saying that you don't believe that women should be able to make the decision to SAH because that is selfish of them. I think that women are smart enough to figure these things out for themselves.