Anonymous
12/20/2018 11:19
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don’t get this. Wilson feeder system is overcrowded so it can’t be changed?
No one is saying it can't be changed. However, no one can agree on how to resolve the issue - i.e., who wins and who loses.
This is always the point of contention in these voluminous threads.
That's what I don't get. Nobody loses with a reborn Western High (location TBD). Every other suggestion seems to be contingent on people losing.
A new MS is needed EOTP AND a new HS is needed WOTP. Both of these things used to be there but were taken away a generation or two ago.
Nobody loses....except the taxpayers who have to foot a $100 million+ bill and who lose out on whatever tax revenue the site otherwise could have supported.
Here's an idea....let's rename Roosevelt HS "Western High" and route Oyster and Bancroft there. And we can call New North and Coolidge "Deal 2" and "Wilson 2" and send Shepherd and Lafayette there. Nobody loses!
Better yet, let's just get rid of public schools altogether. Amirite!
That's a lot of hate for first thing in the morning. Your "plan" will destroy the tax base and lead to the imposition of a city wide lottery for all schools. We'd be back in the 90's. Good job.
Anonymous
12/20/2018 11:15
Subject: Re:Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
EOTP is about 5-10 years behind capitol hill which is about 5-10 years behind WOTP/Wilson Pyramid
The cycle is decent elementary schools which all three regions have
Next is tracking/honors in middle school to convince higher SES folks to attend the neighborhood schools (See Stuart Hobson on Capitol Hill)
The final piece is building enough momentum in middle school that people embrace the high school aka Deal to Wilson feeder
Additionally as neighborhood schools are fully embraced OOB spots decrease so highly motivated folks in-bound elsewhere bringing up the next middle school
As Deal and Hardy become full more folks transition to Stuart Hobson which accelerates performance
As Wilson becomes full more folks transition to other high school options (this is tough esp with the application HS sucking out high quality folks) It remains to be seen what is the next high school to rise up. Eastern still has a ways to go. Hopefully people locked out of Wilson start flocking to Eastern
The cycle is decent elementary schools which all three regions have
Next is tracking/honors in middle school to convince higher SES folks to attend the neighborhood schools (See Stuart Hobson on Capitol Hill)
The final piece is building enough momentum in middle school that people embrace the high school aka Deal to Wilson feeder
Additionally as neighborhood schools are fully embraced OOB spots decrease so highly motivated folks in-bound elsewhere bringing up the next middle school
As Deal and Hardy become full more folks transition to Stuart Hobson which accelerates performance
As Wilson becomes full more folks transition to other high school options (this is tough esp with the application HS sucking out high quality folks) It remains to be seen what is the next high school to rise up. Eastern still has a ways to go. Hopefully people locked out of Wilson start flocking to Eastern
Anonymous
12/20/2018 10:42
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don’t get this. Wilson feeder system is overcrowded so it can’t be changed?
No one is saying it can't be changed. However, no one can agree on how to resolve the issue - i.e., who wins and who loses.
This is always the point of contention in these voluminous threads.
That's what I don't get. Nobody loses with a reborn Western High (location TBD). Every other suggestion seems to be contingent on people losing.
A new MS is needed EOTP AND a new HS is needed WOTP. Both of these things used to be there but were taken away a generation or two ago.
Nobody loses....except the taxpayers who have to foot a $100 million+ bill and who lose out on whatever tax revenue the site otherwise could have supported.
Here's an idea....let's rename Roosevelt HS "Western High" and route Oyster and Bancroft there. And we can call New North and Coolidge "Deal 2" and "Wilson 2" and send Shepherd and Lafayette there. Nobody loses!
Anonymous
12/20/2018 10:32
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So - - - Petworth parents "not having Wilson as an option" does not mean those parents should go to Georgetown, or Palisades or Glover Park. They should be in Petworth, because the things you want in Georgetown should be in Petworth or Columbia Heights instead.
Those things already ARE in those neighborhoods. They are just woefully under-utilized by the UMC white Petworth and Columbia Heights contingent:
Cardozo
CHEC
Roosevelt
Coolidge
Four large facilities are not bursting at the seams, unlike Wilson.
I guarantee that another WOTP high school will be at full capacity the first day it opens. And hence why it should be built - it relieves overcrowding at Wilson, it provides a 2nd viable option for a large cohort of great students, and it opens up more options for OOB folks all over the city (freeing up seats at Banneker, SWW, etc).
The city has already built so much EOTP and the high SES families simply are not showing up. I don't know how this can be any clearer.
But what's the reason why they would come to your second high school west of Rock Creek Park?
Why do well-to-do, politically connected families in Hillcrest shlep their kids to Wilson and Duke Ellington everyday? Because they want their kids surrounded by a similar UMC cohort. They seem willing to make the sacrifice and drive across the city. In fact, we know many parents across the city are willing to make the drive because JKLMM and Deal/Wilson waitlists are so incredibly long.
UMC parents want an UMC cohort for their kids. Those in lower SES groups also wanted their kids surrounded by a higher SES cohort because they know it translates into more resources and better results for their own kid. There's an insane amount of demand for a rapidly shrinking amount of supply of WOTP seats. So our two options are: increase supply WOTP or block access to WOTP schools for families in other areas of the city. It's a binary choice. I'm of the opinion that people respond better to carrots than sticks, so I advocate building more WOTP in addition to building magnets or other specialized programs in other areas of the city.
Yes this is all true.
But the UMC cohort is growing in DC. And many of those folks don't live WOTP.
I know you can't create an UMC only cohort school but Wilson/Deal are not that today. Surely there is a creative and legal way to draw an EOTP boundary that incorporates the many neighborhoods with growing UMC numbers and simultaneously transition some of the lower middle class kids from those same neighborhoods to Deal/Wilson by changing who gets OOB slots?
This should be getting easier, not harder, to pull off.
But as the OP stated something has to give and it has to give soon because Wilson high school cannot handle 3200 students and that is the reality we are barreling towards.
If I understand you, you want to creat an UMC cohort EOTP and move the lower and middle class kids to Wilson rather than have them enjoy the benefits of that UMC cohort in their neighborhood school? Did I get that right?
Well there would still be an UMC cohort at at Wilson. The point was if it helps to get the SES mix right at the new EOTP school (and we are really talking about a new MS) then you continue to have access at Wilson/Deal. This should make such a change more politically palatable and allows Deal/Wilson to continue to be diverse. Optimally everyone will prefer to attend their neighborhood school, at least eventually. But until that happens make sure the kids who most benefit still have access to Deal/Wilson even if they are OOB.
No. DC can't afford K-12 feeder rights anymore. The WOTP schools are too crowded already. End feeder rights after grade 5 altogether or at least cull those performing below grade average, the lazy and the discipline problems from going on to Deal and Wilson.
Gross. Those are the kids a *public* school system most needs to help. You don't have a property right to a high school with no difficult students because you bought an expensive house.
And I agree with ending feeder rights! You may have changed my mind though.
Anonymous
12/20/2018 10:19
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So - - - Petworth parents "not having Wilson as an option" does not mean those parents should go to Georgetown, or Palisades or Glover Park. They should be in Petworth, because the things you want in Georgetown should be in Petworth or Columbia Heights instead.
Those things already ARE in those neighborhoods. They are just woefully under-utilized by the UMC white Petworth and Columbia Heights contingent:
Cardozo
CHEC
Roosevelt
Coolidge
Four large facilities are not bursting at the seams, unlike Wilson.
I guarantee that another WOTP high school will be at full capacity the first day it opens. And hence why it should be built - it relieves overcrowding at Wilson, it provides a 2nd viable option for a large cohort of great students, and it opens up more options for OOB folks all over the city (freeing up seats at Banneker, SWW, etc).
The city has already built so much EOTP and the high SES families simply are not showing up. I don't know how this can be any clearer.
But what's the reason why they would come to your second high school west of Rock Creek Park?
Why do well-to-do, politically connected families in Hillcrest shlep their kids to Wilson and Duke Ellington everyday? Because they want their kids surrounded by a similar UMC cohort. They seem willing to make the sacrifice and drive across the city. In fact, we know many parents across the city are willing to make the drive because JKLMM and Deal/Wilson waitlists are so incredibly long.
UMC parents want an UMC cohort for their kids. Those in lower SES groups also wanted their kids surrounded by a higher SES cohort because they know it translates into more resources and better results for their own kid. There's an insane amount of demand for a rapidly shrinking amount of supply of WOTP seats. So our two options are: increase supply WOTP or block access to WOTP schools for families in other areas of the city. It's a binary choice. I'm of the opinion that people respond better to carrots than sticks, so I advocate building more WOTP in addition to building magnets or other specialized programs in other areas of the city.
Yes this is all true.
But the UMC cohort is growing in DC. And many of those folks don't live WOTP.
I know you can't create an UMC only cohort school but Wilson/Deal are not that today. Surely there is a creative and legal way to draw an EOTP boundary that incorporates the many neighborhoods with growing UMC numbers and simultaneously transition some of the lower middle class kids from those same neighborhoods to Deal/Wilson by changing who gets OOB slots?
This should be getting easier, not harder, to pull off.
But as the OP stated something has to give and it has to give soon because Wilson high school cannot handle 3200 students and that is the reality we are barreling towards.
If I understand you, you want to creat an UMC cohort EOTP and move the lower and middle class kids to Wilson rather than have them enjoy the benefits of that UMC cohort in their neighborhood school? Did I get that right?
Well there would still be an UMC cohort at at Wilson. The point was if it helps to get the SES mix right at the new EOTP school (and we are really talking about a new MS) then you continue to have access at Wilson/Deal. This should make such a change more politically palatable and allows Deal/Wilson to continue to be diverse. Optimally everyone will prefer to attend their neighborhood school, at least eventually. But until that happens make sure the kids who most benefit still have access to Deal/Wilson even if they are OOB.
No. DC can't afford K-12 feeder rights anymore. The WOTP schools are too crowded already. End feeder rights after grade 5 altogether or at least cull those performing below grade average, the lazy and the discipline problems from going on to Deal and Wilson.
Anonymous
12/20/2018 10:16
Subject: Re:Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:There is no PK3 WOTP and never has been. And only Deal has trailers at this point. Let me guess - you just overpaid for an AU Park Colonial and are shocked to find out that the neighborhood upper schools are both crowded and diverse?
Key and Stoddert have trailers too.
And yet Stoddert has a substantial OOB population. This is crazy. Manage down the OOB as IB increases and right-size the school to its building (which was modernized and expanded already).
Anonymous
12/20/2018 10:13
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Then why don’t parents in these days ther parts of the city use their IB schools and their relative wealth to improve them? Why are they still trying to get their kids into an OOB school instead of going to school with their relatively wealthy neighbors?
Honestly, it’s because they fear poor minorities. They believe poor is contagious despite studies that show rich kids in low performing schools have the same outcomes as rich kids in high performing schools. If DCPS really wanted to attract these families, they would start G&T pull out services in those schools. Wealthy parents wrongly assume their kid is somehow being cheated out of something. They aren’t. My child is in an upper grade at a predominantly AA school. It has been a great experience. It has also opened my eyes to the profound gap between the haves and have nots, which leads to lower test scores.
G&T is a mixed bag and not a lot of parents are clamoring for it (despite some full-throated DCUM proponents). On the other hand, many parents would welcome tracking and having students needs met with the necessary academic rigor.
Tracking and rigor are not inclusive.
Anonymous
12/20/2018 09:50
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Then why don’t parents in these days ther parts of the city use their IB schools and their relative wealth to improve them? Why are they still trying to get their kids into an OOB school instead of going to school with their relatively wealthy neighbors?
Honestly, it’s because they fear poor minorities. They believe poor is contagious despite studies that show rich kids in low performing schools have the same outcomes as rich kids in high performing schools. If DCPS really wanted to attract these families, they would start G&T pull out services in those schools. Wealthy parents wrongly assume their kid is somehow being cheated out of something. They aren’t. My child is in an upper grade at a predominantly AA school. It has been a great experience. It has also opened my eyes to the profound gap between the haves and have nots, which leads to lower test scores.
G&T is a mixed bag and not a lot of parents are clamoring for it (despite some full-throated DCUM proponents). On the other hand, many parents would welcome tracking and having students needs met with the necessary academic rigor.
Anonymous
12/20/2018 09:46
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Then why don’t parents in these days ther parts of the city use their IB schools and their relative wealth to improve them? Why are they still trying to get their kids into an OOB school instead of going to school with their relatively wealthy neighbors?
Well, outside of the hollow cries of racism, it's in part because DCPS as a whole is addicted to incompetence, averse to listening to UMC families, but when they do listen they are extremely slow to respond. Plus rapid principal turnover harms stability; and the very demonstrated need to serve the personal and academic needs of low-income students is a logical priority. That last part explains why the middle-and-UMC families aren't getting what they want, and frankly it's hard to argue with that. [/quote
+100. Yes, exactly.
Anonymous
12/20/2018 09:46
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Come on now, "fear poor minorities"? Well off and highly educated black families, like everyone else, don't want to send their kids to those schools either.
The underlying problem is the test scores. Look at the math and English proficiency numbers. They are shockingly low. People are concerned about their kids being in classes where a majority of students are well below grade level. What that means in terms of the lesson plans and the level of information being taught is a real concern. No one wants their kids to be the initial ones that lose out. So while it is easy to say that, over the long term, it would be ok,.the short term is a huge cost for people to bear for something they will not benefit from..
The underlying problem is the test scores. Look at the math and English proficiency numbers. They are shockingly low. People are concerned about their kids being in classes where a majority of students are well below grade level. What that means in terms of the lesson plans and the level of information being taught is a real concern. No one wants their kids to be the initial ones that lose out. So while it is easy to say that, over the long term, it would be ok,.the short term is a huge cost for people to bear for something they will not benefit from..
Anonymous
12/20/2018 09:45
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Then why don’t parents in these days ther parts of the city use their IB schools and their relative wealth to improve them? Why are they still trying to get their kids into an OOB school instead of going to school with their relatively wealthy neighbors?
Honestly, it’s because they fear poor minorities. They believe poor is contagious despite studies that show rich kids in low performing schools have the same outcomes as rich kids in high performing schools. If DCPS really wanted to attract these families, they would start G&T pull out services in those schools. Wealthy parents wrongly assume their kid is somehow being cheated out of something. They aren’t. My child is in an upper grade at a predominantly AA school. It has been a great experience. It has also opened my eyes to the profound gap between the haves and have nots, which leads to lower test scores. [/quote
Oh, come, this post drips with pie in the sky. My child is at a strong DCPS EotP. If the PTA didn't pay for teachers aides who work with advanced learners, we wouldn't have enrolled our child, because s/he would have been bored at school half the time, really bored. We don't fear poor minorities, we fear that our children won't be engaged, challenged and yes, pushed, in class. There are several low SES AA kids in my child's 3rd grade class who work at least two grade levels behind the other students. From where I sit, these kids would be much better off in a strong year-round school program in the neighborhood with extended day academics. Such a program doesn't exist. A lot of the teachers' energy clearly goes into helping these kids, vs. into pushing mine. So we pay for tutors and a variety of academic enrichment outside of school. It works, but that profound gap doesn't just lead to lower test scores, it leads to lack of challenge for advanced students, even with excellent teacher at the helm.
Anonymous
12/20/2018 09:44
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Then why don’t parents in these days ther parts of the city use their IB schools and their relative wealth to improve them? Why are they still trying to get their kids into an OOB school instead of going to school with their relatively wealthy neighbors?
Well, outside of the hollow cries of racism, it's in part because DCPS as a whole is addicted to incompetence, averse to listening to UMC families, but when they do listen they are extremely slow to respond. Plus rapid principal turnover harms stability; and the very demonstrated need to serve the personal and academic needs of low-income students is a logical priority. That last part explains why the middle-and-UMC families aren't getting what they want, and frankly it's hard to argue with that.
Anonymous
12/20/2018 09:38
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don’t get this. Wilson feeder system is overcrowded so it can’t be changed?
No one is saying it can't be changed. However, no one can agree on how to resolve the issue - i.e., who wins and who loses.
This is always the point of contention in these voluminous threads.
That's what I don't get. Nobody loses with a reborn Western High (location TBD). Every other suggestion seems to be contingent on people losing.
A new MS is needed EOTP AND a new HS is needed WOTP. Both of these things used to be there but were taken away a generation or two ago.
We have plenty of DCPS middle schools EotP, all of them mediocre, weak or disastrous. What we need EotP are a lot more at and above grade-level classes,and richer and academic extra curricular offerings, to meet the needs of in-boundary families. It's a dirty word, but we need academic tracking EotP, like crazy. We actually don't need more middle schools, or high schools. We need by-right middle schools and high schools most EotP parents are excited about enrolling their children in!
Anonymous
12/20/2018 08:37
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Anonymous wrote:Then why don’t parents in these days ther parts of the city use their IB schools and their relative wealth to improve them? Why are they still trying to get their kids into an OOB school instead of going to school with their relatively wealthy neighbors?
Honestly, it’s because they fear poor minorities. They believe poor is contagious despite studies that show rich kids in low performing schools have the same outcomes as rich kids in high performing schools. If DCPS really wanted to attract these families, they would start G&T pull out services in those schools. Wealthy parents wrongly assume their kid is somehow being cheated out of something. They aren’t. My child is in an upper grade at a predominantly AA school. It has been a great experience. It has also opened my eyes to the profound gap between the haves and have nots, which leads to lower test scores.
Anonymous
12/20/2018 07:09
Subject: Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give
Then why don’t parents in these days ther parts of the city use their IB schools and their relative wealth to improve them? Why are they still trying to get their kids into an OOB school instead of going to school with their relatively wealthy neighbors?