Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

So let's be very clear: Your true and honest advice to men is that they should never make any "appearance-related comments" to anyone in the world/office? I assume you'd exclude my wife and daughters from that broad rule, but would you exclude anyone else?

Please don't dodge the question again by calling me "obtuse" or otherwise ducking. Please answer the question clearly: Are you saying that men should simply never offer any comment - no matter how innocuous and innocent they might consider it - to any other person?

You say "It's really not that difficult," but I'm wondering if you truly are suggesting all men follow such a broad guideline. Interested to hear if you'll stand by what you wrote or not.

Yes, I think it's a good rule of thumb not to comment on your colleague's appearance unless you are absolutely certain they won't mind. How hard is that? There's a huge range of other small talk you can make. And if you're not telling Fred that his mustache looks great, you should not be telling Frieda that you like her haircut. Commenting on appearance is something between intimates, not coworkers.

Anonymous wrote:

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

So let's be very clear: Your true and honest advice to men is that they should never make any "appearance-related comments" to anyone in the world/office? I assume you'd exclude my wife and daughters from that broad rule, but would you exclude anyone else?

Please don't dodge the question again by calling me "obtuse" or otherwise ducking. Please answer the question clearly: Are you saying that men should simply never offer any comment - no matter how innocuous and innocent they might consider it - to any other person?

You say "It's really not that difficult," but I'm wondering if you truly are suggesting all men follow such a broad guideline. Interested to hear if you'll stand by what you wrote or not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

So let's be very clear: Your true and honest advice to men is that they should never make any "appearance-related comments" to anyone in the world/office? I assume you'd exclude my wife and daughters from that broad rule, but would you exclude anyone else?

Please don't dodge the question again by calling me "obtuse" or otherwise ducking. Please answer the question clearly: Are you saying that men should simply never offer any comment - no matter how innocuous and innocent they might consider it - to any other person?

You say "It's really not that difficult," but I'm wondering if you truly are suggesting all men follow such a broad guideline. Interested to hear if you'll stand by what you wrote or not.

Actually, many of us women have stopped commenting on appearances at least a few years ago. I’ve learned to try to compliment people on things other than their appearance. Even if it’s positive, my complimenting their appearance just shows I’m judging them in that way. On at least a few ocassionally I realize I’ve stuck my foot in my mouth by doing that.

There are more interesting things to comment on.

Anonymous wrote:

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

So let's be very clear: Your true and honest advice to men is that they should never make any "appearance-related comments" to anyone in the world/office? I assume you'd exclude my wife and daughters from that broad rule, but would you exclude anyone else?

Please don't dodge the question again by calling me "obtuse" or otherwise ducking. Please answer the question clearly: Are you saying that men should simply never offer any comment - no matter how innocuous and innocent they might consider it - to any other person?

You say "It's really not that difficult," but I'm wondering if you truly are suggesting all men follow such a broad guideline. Interested to hear if you'll stand by what you wrote or not.

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Women have a right to be out in the world. To put us in a position where we must accept all social interactions from everyone in a public space or stay at home is to tell us that our bodies and attention and time belong to others unless we cloister ourselves away from the world.

I would like to walk in the world without doing emotional labor for others - I would like to dress as I please without having to worry whether I am too slutty or inviting someone to touch me, I would like to sit in a public restaurant and work without having to entertain others, I would like to be able to ignore or say no to others who interact with me without having to do the emotional labour of having to calculate what is the Goldilocks no (not too soft, not too hard). In short, I would like to walk freely in the world.

You have basically hijacked a discussion about sexual harassment and turned it into your "right" to not be spoken to by men in bars and coffeehouses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Women have a right to be out in the world. To put us in a position where we must accept all social interactions from everyone in a public space or stay at home is to tell us that our bodies and attention and time belong to others unless we cloister ourselves away from the world.

I would like to walk in the world without doing emotional labor for others - I would like to dress as I please without having to worry whether I am too slutty or inviting someone to touch me, I would like to sit in a public restaurant and work without having to entertain others, I would like to be able to ignore or say no to others who interact with me without having to do the emotional labour of having to calculate what is the Goldilocks no (not too soft, not too hard). In short, I would like to walk freely in the world.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Women have a right to be out in the world. To put us in a position where we must accept all social interactions from everyone in a public space or stay at home is to tell us that our bodies and attention and time belong to others unless we cloister ourselves away from the world.

I would like to walk in the world without doing emotional labor for others - I would like to dress as I please without having to worry whether I am too slutty or inviting someone to touch me, I would like to sit in a public restaurant and work without having to entertain others, I would like to be able to ignore or say no to others who interact with me without having to do the emotional labour of having to calculate what is the Goldilocks no (not too soft, not too hard). In short, I would like to walk freely in the world.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

You can't understand why women think they have a right to be in public without being obliged to talk to everyone who thinks she should talk to them?

That's very, very sad.

It’s ego. What a lot of men can’t understand is how they aren’t god’s biggest gift to the world to absolutely everyone under the sun.
Who raised these people??

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

You can't understand why women think they have a right to be in public without being obliged to talk to everyone who thinks she should talk to them?

That's very, very sad.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not the person you've been arguing with.

It seems like you are having a hard time understanding the experiences that women on this thread are relating to you of how regularly they experience unwanted attention in public. If you are not comfortable with the term harassment, that's fine, but I do think that you should appreciate that when you strike up a conversation with a woman who is reading the same thing you're reading, it may be the first time today that you've done that, but for that woman, it's entirely possible that she's been fending off "friendly" approaches about the book she's reading, the shirt she's wearing, whether the empty chair at her table is taken, what strange weather we're having lately, etc. all morning. That's not your fault or your responsibility, but if you cannot understand why women sometimes seem to get easily upset by what you believe are routine interactions, consider that their experience is likely a lot different than yours.

Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation. The reality is that if you want to be respectful, it's truly better to mind your own business. By your own statement, you're happily married, so you don't need to be chatting up women in Starbucks who are reading the same book as you. You don't need to compliment your colleague on her haircut. None of those things are essential to your life or happiness. When someone tells you that this thing you are doing makes them uncomfortable, and it costs you nothing to stop doing that thing, and instead of stopping that thing, you choose to argue self righteously that you disagree that they should feel uncomfortable and will continue to do the thing that is causing discomfort, that tells me that you are not a person who cares at all about the experiences of other people. You are attached to your own experience and screw what anyone else thinks or feels.

Thank you for your (mostly) thoughtful response.

I appreciate your point about how a woman sitting in a coffeeshop might've been chatted up by others, so she might not want to talk to me when I comment that I'm reading the same book. But there are only two choices: (1) I just refuse to talk to women in coffeeshops and only talk to men, for fear that I might inadvertently offend a woman who doesn't want to talk, or (2) I make my book comment, and then only continue the conversation if she wants to. If those are my two choices, I would rather choose option 2, because I'm a social person. I trust if she doesn't want to talk, she'll just say" Yes, it's good," and go back to her pages. I'm not going to be offended, and contrary to what some people on this thread seem to suggest, I'm not going to get violent.

I don't understand why you'd go to a bar to read a book, especially during happy hour. Of course someone's going to talk to you at happy hour, whether you're a man or woman. So maybe that's a bad example. But I take your point that women probably get talked to more than men.

I hear your point that no one needs to comment on a stranger's book, or compliment anyone's appearance. No communication at all is essential. But it's part of being social. I choose to live in a world where people can talk to one another.

If I had some indication that my co-workers (male or female) do not want to be complimented when they get new haircuts, I'd stop. But quite frankly, the response is usually something like "Thanks so much!" and then a few minutes of the person telling me about it. People are usually pretty excited to talk about it when they get a new and different haircut. Don't you ever compliment people you don't know well? Maybe you should try it sometime. Believe it or not, some people (both men and women) consider it flattering.

As for the people on this thread saying personal interactions (conversations in public or hairstyle compliments) make them uncomfortable, I'd certainly take that into consideration if I considered their viewpoints accurate reflections of the world. FWIW though, I consider most of the posters on this thread unreliable narrators who have messed up views of the world.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your comments.

Dude, you are the worst. Do whatever you want, but know that you're bugging the "cute chicks" in the coffee shop, and you just don't care that you are. I don't believe for a hot minute that you're chatting equally with young and old, male and female, white and black.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not the person you've been arguing with.

It seems like you are having a hard time understanding the experiences that women on this thread are relating to you of how regularly they experience unwanted attention in public. If you are not comfortable with the term harassment, that's fine, but I do think that you should appreciate that when you strike up a conversation with a woman who is reading the same thing you're reading, it may be the first time today that you've done that, but for that woman, it's entirely possible that she's been fending off "friendly" approaches about the book she's reading, the shirt she's wearing, whether the empty chair at her table is taken, what strange weather we're having lately, etc. all morning. That's not your fault or your responsibility, but if you cannot understand why women sometimes seem to get easily upset by what you believe are routine interactions, consider that their experience is likely a lot different than yours.

Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation. The reality is that if you want to be respectful, it's truly better to mind your own business. By your own statement, you're happily married, so you don't need to be chatting up women in Starbucks who are reading the same book as you. You don't need to compliment your colleague on her haircut. None of those things are essential to your life or happiness. When someone tells you that this thing you are doing makes them uncomfortable, and it costs you nothing to stop doing that thing, and instead of stopping that thing, you choose to argue self righteously that you disagree that they should feel uncomfortable and will continue to do the thing that is causing discomfort, that tells me that you are not a person who cares at all about the experiences of other people. You are attached to your own experience and screw what anyone else thinks or feels.

Thank you for your (mostly) thoughtful response.

I appreciate your point about how a woman sitting in a coffeeshop might've been chatted up by others, so she might not want to talk to me when I comment that I'm reading the same book. But there are only two choices: (1) I just refuse to talk to women in coffeeshops and only talk to men, for fear that I might inadvertently offend a woman who doesn't want to talk, or (2) I make my book comment, and then only continue the conversation if she wants to. If those are my two choices, I would rather choose option 2, because I'm a social person. I trust if she doesn't want to talk, she'll just say" Yes, it's good," and go back to her pages. I'm not going to be offended, and contrary to what some people on this thread seem to suggest, I'm not going to get violent.

I don't understand why you'd go to a bar to read a book, especially during happy hour. Of course someone's going to talk to you at happy hour, whether you're a man or woman. So maybe that's a bad example. But I take your point that women probably get talked to more than men.

I hear your point that no one needs to comment on a stranger's book, or compliment anyone's appearance. No communication at all is essential. But it's part of being social. I choose to live in a world where people can talk to one another.

If I had some indication that my co-workers (male or female) do not want to be complimented when they get new haircuts, I'd stop. But quite frankly, the response is usually something like "Thanks so much!" and then a few minutes of the person telling me about it. People are usually pretty excited to talk about it when they get a new and different haircut. Don't you ever compliment people you don't know well? Maybe you should try it sometime. Believe it or not, some people (both men and women) consider it flattering.

As for the people on this thread saying personal interactions (conversations in public or hairstyle compliments) make them uncomfortable, I'd certainly take that into consideration if I considered their viewpoints accurate reflections of the world. FWIW though, I consider most of the posters on this thread unreliable narrators who have messed up views of the world.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your comments.