I think to some degree this is an issue of framing and language.

People complain if a school is "too white" that it's not "diverse." But you never hear that complaint trotted out if a school is majority black or Hispanic. You hear a different sort of complaint, but there are some schools in DC that are close to 100% black and no one wrings their hands about "diversity."

So one reason people get their noses bent out of shape in these discussions is they feel attacked, as if having a child in a white-majority school is somehow an affront.

In any case, all of this has more to do with housing policy than educational policy.

Anonymous wrote:
This really isn't an issue for most people because you are stuck with whatever school you are zoned for. I'm assuming most posters live in DC? Dumb question, I know.

I went to school in Chicago and the predominantly Black/Hispanic school I went to was rife with crime(gang members, stabbings, bringing guns to school, etc.) and disruptive students. These kids were a product of their environment, and that environment is one that nobody with money would willingly experience, regardless of race. Many of the other predominantly Black schools in the area had similar issues. And yes, most students had no parental involvement, and surprise surprise, many didn't even graduate. I learned some tough life lessons, but they weren't necessarily positive, and I definitely wouldn't want my kids to have a similar experience.

When I hear people talk about how they love all socioeconomic levels (poor people) and diversity (black people) it just seems so fake and narrow-minded. Buying a 500k house instead of a 2 mil house doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. I guess with a little spin, you can now say that you value "diversity." I think that most people end up coming to the conclusion that your new poor/black/Hispanic neighbors are people just like you. It may be good for your kids to learn this, but why not actually have your kids experience diversity beyond YOUR definition of diversity. Send your kid to South America and I guarantee he/she will learn a ton more than playing video games with his Americanized Hispanic friends. I even learned a ton from a friends father who was a rich entrepreneur. I didn't look at the study that a PP cited above, but it sounds laughable. I guess anyone can find a study that supports their preconceived conclusion.

I'm not understanding why it should be one or the other. You learn stuff from going to school with people from backgrounds different from yours. You learn other stuff from traveling (in your own country or in other countries). If somebody said, "Well, I only ever went to school with rich kids, but I know all about poverty because I did this three-week program during summer break in high school, building a health clinic in Malawi," what would you think?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Or perhaps, since research tells us that racially and socioeconomically diverse environments promote creativity, motivation, deeper learning, critical thinking, problem-solving skills, empathy and greater tolerance, the most responsible parents are those who buy a house in racially and socioeconomically diverse areas.

Sacrificing your own offspring's education in the name of homogeneity?!?!?!?!? INSANE

Then I guess you will send your kid to a SES and racially diverse college right. Are you really this stupid and moronic.

Even worse! PP will send their kid to a SES and racially diverse WORLD!

We purchased a house in an economically and ethnically diverse neighborhood b/c it was what we could afford. We are in Fairfax County, where I believe there really is no such thing as a bad school.

My daughter's ES was Title I: 57% Hispanic, 17% white, 17% Asian and a smattering of other groups. 57% of the families were FARMS. We had small classes with a student teacher ration of 10:1. Almost all the various ethnic groups were involved in the PTA, and I had to give credit to some of the people who struggled with English for being there because it must have been hard. The school administration was excellent and the teachers suburb. On all measures, save one (reading), the school was doing a good job of closing the achievement gap between the FARMS students and children like ours from wealthier families. Children like our daughter did fine and were not at all harmed by attending the school.

Her middle school was even more diverse: GS7 27% Hispanis; 27% Asian; 27% White and 13% other. 41% FARMS. My daughter was not in the AAP Center, but did take honors classes and Algebra I.

She graduates high school in a few weeks now, has been accepted to a good college with significant merit based aid. I am not unhappy with the outcome for her. I think we made all the right choices.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fair point but like others have said it's almost impossible to tell what the real quality of a school is

Therefore test scores, graduation rates, college acceptance and type of college kids are accepted to and discipline issues is the only thing to go on

Higher SES is directly correlated with higher rates of these factors and lower rates of serious discipline issues (suspensions expulsions dropping out etc)

Higher SES is directly correlated to certain races over others

Now some think the purpose of school isn't to go to the best college you can to those I say why are you mortgaging your kids future on some liberal crusade of diversity

No, they're not.

You keep begging the question. By which I mean, this is your reasoning:

You: The good schools are the schools with lots of kids from affluent, educated families.
Us: How do you know?
You: Because diversity is PC bunk.
Us: How do you know?
You: Because the schools with lots of kids from affluent, educated families are the good schools.

t

Look its not rocket science

Which schools have veteran teachers clamoring to be there vs ones that teachers want to get away from and have trouble staffing
Which schools have tons more resources volunteers and extracurriculars vs barely scraping buy

Answer its all related to higher SES which is strongly correlated to the racial makeup of the school

Those are the facts

I'm done here seems like you don't have any commonsense typical DCUM liberal

A school need not be 50+% FARMS in order to be socio-economically diverse. Research suggests this is the tipping point at which the achievement of middle-class students may be negatively impacted. And when you control for SES, research indicates white student achievement in schools with the highest minority density does not differ from white student achievement in schools with the lowest density.

Actually the school starts taking a hit at rates as low as 15% with a gradual decline until you get to 40%. Once you hit 40% not even the best principal/teachers/parents/students can turn the school around

Last statement of course SES trumps all. It's why most responsible parents buy a house in the most expensive area (read best school district) they can afford

And finally for the life of me why would any parent want to use their child as a science experiment and go to a school with more racial and SES diversity of a school with higher SES and higher outcomes across the board

This liberal white guilt disease is insane sacrificing your own offspring's education in the name of diversity?!?!?!?!? INSANE

Or perhaps, since research tells us that racially and socioeconomically diverse environments promote creativity, motivation, deeper learning, critical thinking, problem-solving skills, empathy and greater tolerance, the most responsible parents are those who buy a house in racially and socioeconomically diverse areas.

Sacrificing your own offspring's education in the name of homogeneity?!?!?!?!? INSANE

Then I guess you will send your kid to a SES and racially diverse college right. Are you really this stupid and moronic.

Anonymous wrote:I'd like to get to a point where we think of all of them as "our kids," instead of "our kids" and "those other kids." I went to an event at our school last night full of parents and kids of all colors and backgrounds and socioeconomic levels and we all had a fantastic time. We are different in many ways but we all love and celebrate all our kids. When you can get a great education at either an all-rich, nearly all white school or a mixed school, I see why I'd choose the mixed school. Everyone has to consider their own specific options. But I'm really shocked to hear people equate schools with many black or Hispanic kids to dangerous, failing schools. Will you do the same analysis of colleges? Will you research what percentage of kids are black or Hispanic before selecting a college? If you say "well duh, if they can get into that college they must be one of the good ones," then wake up: great kids come in all colors, even in high school.

This really isn't an issue for most people because you are stuck with whatever school you are zoned for. I'm assuming most posters live in DC? Dumb question, I know.

I went to school in Chicago and the predominantly Black/Hispanic school I went to was rife with crime(gang members, stabbings, bringing guns to school, etc.) and disruptive students. These kids were a product of their environment, and that environment is one that nobody with money would willingly experience, regardless of race. Many of the other predominantly Black schools in the area had similar issues. And yes, most students had no parental involvement, and surprise surprise, many didn't even graduate. I learned some tough life lessons, but they weren't necessarily positive, and I definitely wouldn't want my kids to have a similar experience.

When I hear people talk about how they love all socioeconomic levels (poor people) and diversity (black people) it just seems so fake and narrow-minded. Buying a 500k house instead of a 2 mil house doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. I guess with a little spin, you can now say that you value "diversity." I think that most people end up coming to the conclusion that your new poor/black/Hispanic neighbors are people just like you. It may be good for your kids to learn this, but why not actually have your kids experience diversity beyond YOUR definition of diversity. Send your kid to South America and I guarantee he/she will learn a ton more than playing video games with his Americanized Hispanic friends. I even learned a ton from a friends father who was a rich entrepreneur. I didn't look at the study that a PP cited above, but it sounds laughable. I guess anyone can find a study that supports their preconceived conclusion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fair point but like others have said it's almost impossible to tell what the real quality of a school is

Therefore test scores, graduation rates, college acceptance and type of college kids are accepted to and discipline issues is the only thing to go on

Higher SES is directly correlated with higher rates of these factors and lower rates of serious discipline issues (suspensions expulsions dropping out etc)

Higher SES is directly correlated to certain races over others

Now some think the purpose of school isn't to go to the best college you can to those I say why are you mortgaging your kids future on some liberal crusade of diversity

No, they're not.

You keep begging the question. By which I mean, this is your reasoning:

You: The good schools are the schools with lots of kids from affluent, educated families.
Us: How do you know?
You: Because diversity is PC bunk.
Us: How do you know?
You: Because the schools with lots of kids from affluent, educated families are the good schools.

t

Look its not rocket science

Which schools have veteran teachers clamoring to be there vs ones that teachers want to get away from and have trouble staffing
Which schools have tons more resources volunteers and extracurriculars vs barely scraping buy

Answer its all related to higher SES which is strongly correlated to the racial makeup of the school

Those are the facts

I'm done here seems like you don't have any commonsense typical DCUM liberal

A school need not be 50+% FARMS in order to be socio-economically diverse. Research suggests this is the tipping point at which the achievement of middle-class students may be negatively impacted. And when you control for SES, research indicates white student achievement in schools with the highest minority density does not differ from white student achievement in schools with the lowest density.

Actually the school starts taking a hit at rates as low as 15% with a gradual decline until you get to 40%. Once you hit 40% not even the best principal/teachers/parents/students can turn the school around

Last statement of course SES trumps all. It's why most responsible parents buy a house in the most expensive area (read best school district) they can afford

And finally for the life of me why would any parent want to use their child as a science experiment and go to a school with more racial and SES diversity of a school with higher SES and higher outcomes across the board

This liberal white guilt disease is insane sacrificing your own offspring's education in the name of diversity?!?!?!?!? INSANE

Or perhaps, since research tells us that racially and socioeconomically diverse environments promote creativity, motivation, deeper learning, critical thinking, problem-solving skills, empathy and greater tolerance, the most responsible parents are those who buy a house in racially and socioeconomically diverse areas.

Sacrificing your own offspring's education in the name of homogeneity?!?!?!?!? INSANE

I wonder whether people know that information about exact percentages of poor kids and minority kids at schools has only been available since No Child Left Behind, about 15 years ago. How did people EVER get by without knowing the exact percentage of children whose parents made less than $50k? I mean, they feel they have a right to know that so it doesn't rub off on their kids, right?

I struggle to imagine how they would describe this to someone if they move here from far away. "First, you look up the exact number of families on free lunch, then you find the very fewest number of those kids you can possibly afford." It sounds outrageous because it is outrageous. You don't know how many kids were on free lunch when you were a kid and neither do I, because it wasn't our business. You didn't know the average test scores on each subject by each demographic either. The fact that this data is now available -- and the internet has made it user-friendly -- has made some people nuts. Imagine knowing the exact income of all of your neighbors or colleagues or family members and choosing who to associate with that way. This is not a way to live.

Anonymous wrote:

Actually the school starts taking a hit at rates as low as 15% with a gradual decline until you get to 40%. Once you hit 40% not even the best principal/teachers/parents/students can turn the school around

Last statement of course SES trumps all. It's why most responsible parents buy a house in the most expensive area (read best school district) they can afford

And finally for the life of me why would any parent want to use their child as a science experiment and go to a school with more racial and SES diversity of a school with higher SES and higher outcomes across the board

This liberal white guilt disease is insane sacrificing your own offspring's education in the name of diversity?!?!?!?!? INSANE

You: It's insane, sacrificing your own offspring's education in the name of diversity!
Us: We're not sacrificing our offspring's education. They're doing just fine.
You: It's insane! It's insane!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fair point but like others have said it's almost impossible to tell what the real quality of a school is

Therefore test scores, graduation rates, college acceptance and type of college kids are accepted to and discipline issues is the only thing to go on

Higher SES is directly correlated with higher rates of these factors and lower rates of serious discipline issues (suspensions expulsions dropping out etc)

Higher SES is directly correlated to certain races over others

Now some think the purpose of school isn't to go to the best college you can to those I say why are you mortgaging your kids future on some liberal crusade of diversity

No, they're not.

You keep begging the question. By which I mean, this is your reasoning:

You: The good schools are the schools with lots of kids from affluent, educated families.
Us: How do you know?
You: Because diversity is PC bunk.
Us: How do you know?
You: Because the schools with lots of kids from affluent, educated families are the good schools.

t

Look its not rocket science

Which schools have veteran teachers clamoring to be there vs ones that teachers want to get away from and have trouble staffing
Which schools have tons more resources volunteers and extracurriculars vs barely scraping buy

Answer its all related to higher SES which is strongly correlated to the racial makeup of the school

Those are the facts

I'm done here seems like you don't have any commonsense typical DCUM liberal

A school need not be 50+% FARMS in order to be socio-economically diverse. Research suggests this is the tipping point at which the achievement of middle-class students may be negatively impacted. And when you control for SES, research indicates white student achievement in schools with the highest minority density does not differ from white student achievement in schools with the lowest density.

Actually the school starts taking a hit at rates as low as 15% with a gradual decline until you get to 40%. Once you hit 40% not even the best principal/teachers/parents/students can turn the school around

Last statement of course SES trumps all. It's why most responsible parents buy a house in the most expensive area (read best school district) they can afford

And finally for the life of me why would any parent want to use their child as a science experiment and go to a school with more racial and SES diversity of a school with higher SES and higher outcomes across the board

This liberal white guilt disease is insane sacrificing your own offspring's education in the name of diversity?!?!?!?!? INSANE

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys are literally running in fear of my child. My child is apparently what stands between your child and a bright future. And I'm not even poor, just a teacher with the wrong skin color. I'd say it's a shame, but then again I don't think I'd want you in our school community anyway.

I don't think anyone is saying that they wouldn't want their kids to go to school with black/hispanic kids. I think what they are saying is that they don't want a school that has too many poor kids because those schools usually have too many issues, much like a school that has too many wealthy kids do.

In contrast, I think that there are plenty of posts here saying that. And people in real life, too.

Anonymous wrote:You guys are literally running in fear of my child. My child is apparently what stands between your child and a bright future. And I'm not even poor, just a teacher with the wrong skin color. I'd say it's a shame, but then again I don't think I'd want you in our school community anyway.

I don't think anyone is saying that they wouldn't want their kids to go to school with black/hispanic kids. I think what they are saying is that they don't want a school that has too many poor kids because those schools usually have too many issues, much like a school that has too many wealthy kids do.

The concern with supposedly lowering the quality of education for diversity is that there are some thoughts that believe that classes get held back for the slowest students.

There are some posts on here that state something similar. Where their bright child is left amusing themselves while the teachers are focusing on the lower performers.

Then in the article linked about Kennedy, one parent noted how they believed that their student went into the school as a B student but finished it as a C student.

There's no guarantee if that would or would not occur. So as previous posters mentioned, some parents may not want to gamble on it and try to get their children the best education that they can.

Similarly, as others mentioned there aren't many parents out there who would knowingly sacrifice quality of education for their students. It may be their belief that the schools they are choosing are fine. Like how many posters on here describe the school systems around here as some of the best in the country. It's all the same curriculum across the school system, etc. And as others said, how do you measure the quality of education. Some of these parents may not believe that the great schools ratings correlates with quality of education. So don't feel as if they're sacrificing anything in terms of their children's education.

And for those who knowingly or happily place their children in a situation where they're in the minority, one of the main factors for me in choosing a place to live was to be some place where my kids won't be in the minority. (We're not white) It doesn't matter the race but it's generally not a good feeling to be in the minority and the majority may not be that welcoming, regardless of race. And you never know when things will turn on you. Two examples is the elementary school in Montgomery County where the community pushed out the principal because they wanted someone that reflected and understood the community. Then there was an article about the Baltimore riots where the store owner didn't understand why his store was being vandalized and he was being beaten because prior to that he always thought that he was part of the community.

I'm sorry PP about he bad people here.

You guys are literally running in fear of my child. My child is apparently what stands between your child and a bright future. And I'm not even poor, just a teacher with the wrong skin color. I'd say it's a shame, but then again I don't think I'd want you in our school community anyway.