Anonymous wrote:Here is the kicker: people on here constantly cry about how much they've paid for their home in the nice neighborhood, so their kids should, of course, have the nice cluster schools.

And people who weren't smart enough or lucky enough or rich enough should stick with their crappy schools.

Something has to change.

You guys in your wonderful clusters would change nothing for these other kids at other schools because it doesn't affect you. You can just admonish those other bad parents of bad children who make bad choices.

Schools are not working for them.

Maybe in the face of having money pulled out of the system, affecting potentially even the funding for the nice clusters, folks here will finally feel the same despair felt by their fellow citizens and either support change that benefits every child, pay for private or watch their schools sink even faster than they are now.

Like some other folks early in this thread, my kids are in one of the clusters that most DCUM folks wouldn't consider and constantly warn new folks away from. Yes, there are terrible schools in Maryland, but the kinds of conditions that you are describing are certainly not universal among low-income schools. Certainly not in MCPS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^Exhibit A on why people who support the public school system believe that people who support vouchers, charter schools, etc., are really trying to kill the public school system.

The public system is dead.

Why is this so hard to believe?

The schools can't educate kids when they're 1) so behind in technology and 2) afraid to discipline kids who pose dangers to other students and to teachers.

It's been dead, but people are too stupid to figure that out. So we either let it implode or we find alternative ways to educate our kids.

I'm not one for mediocrity or setting the bar low. So if you can't keep up, don't complain when your child can't read very well.

PP, perhaps you'd be happier with a different job.

Anonymous wrote:^^^Exhibit A on why people who support the public school system believe that people who support vouchers, charter schools, etc., are really trying to kill the public school system.

The public system is dead.

Why is this so hard to believe?

The schools can't educate kids when they're 1) so behind in technology and 2) afraid to discipline kids who pose dangers to other students and to teachers.

It's been dead, but people are too stupid to figure that out. So we either let it implode or we find alternative ways to educate our kids.

I'm not one for mediocrity or setting the bar low. So if you can't keep up, don't complain when your child can't read very well.

^^^Exhibit A on why people who support the public school system believe that people who support vouchers, charter schools, etc., are really trying to kill the public school system.

Anonymous wrote:If you dismiss studies on grounds that they come from organizations whose philosophy you disagree with (including the Fordham Institute?) and that their results are different from your own personal experience, then there's really not much left to talk about, is there? You know what you know.

A charter COULD run well if

1) a system didn't try to sabotage it (larger systems that appear to run well on the surface)
2) the board and the system could actually see eye-to-eye, thus avoiding trapping the founders in the middle
3) the founders were in it for the right reasons

The public system will eventually implode. It's been heading into dark territory for years now, but unless you're in the system and have been working in challenging situations, you won't know the details. Ignorance is bliss and the public is for the people and we can fight for the struggling kids and we're all one, big happy family.

That's all bullshit.

So I don't care what the studies say at this point b/c there are far too many constraints placed on folks who WANT to take creative approaches - and too many in central offices willing to sabotage their efforts. The one montessori charter approved by MCPS didn't fly b/c the system wasn't willing to support the endeavor. Imagine if it HAD been successful? How would a large system like MCPS ever be able to spin bad PR on that one? So these supposedly well-run systems don't want competition.

In systems open to charters - DC, Baltimore City, PG - there are far too many issues to battle in the first place. So a charter isn't escaping the issues. Funding - or per pupil spending - is lower. Special services aren't as expansive. There are more kids living in poverty. So even IF the systems are willing to take a chance, the founders of that charter will have to be demanding in getting what they want and need for the kids. How much can a few people take?

Furthermore, not all people who are creative and innovative know how to run a school. While the curriculum framework is key, the business end is equally as important, as are safety measures.

But I do believe that if you find the right people who are experienced in different areas and who are willing to fight, a charter could indeed outshine the system.

The public system will implode - and soon. Mark my words. I still have kids in the system, and if something happens, I'll be placing them in private. That's my plan B.

Anonymous wrote:I can believe that public schools can do a better job of educating struggling students since private school are used to bring selective with which students they accept, working with families who can afford tuition ( and usually Tutors or other forms of enrichment) and don't have as many resources helping ESOL or sped students unless it's a private school that's mission is to work with special education students.

Furthermore private schools don't have to be a stringent as public schools about continuing education/ professional development credits, and hire people who do not have degrees in education. So so agsin you end up with teachers who might be comfortable teaching to the middle or teaching to above the middle but not used to working with struggling students.

It depends on the school. My friend's kids were all in public. She has three. The youngest one was struggling with larger class sizes and was falling behind in reading (mainly comprehension). She pulled him from public and placed him in a K-8 Catholic school. The school isn't small by any means - for a Catholic school, that is - as it has three classes per grade. But with 20-25 in each class, he was able to get more 1-1 help, as they did pull him out for reading instruction. While his public elementary wasn't chaotic, private schools (and Catholic ones in particular) do focus on discipline. So the environment had fewer disruptions.

I say do whatever works. I would never expect my own kids to be guinea pigs in any system or school. And I say this as a PS teacher. I think we unfairly generalize about private schools when they actually have the freedom to be creative and to say no to ridiculous testing mandates.

I can believe that public schools can do a better job of educating struggling students since private school are used to bring selective with which students they accept, working with families who can afford tuition ( and usually Tutors or other forms of enrichment) and don't have as many resources helping ESOL or sped students unless it's a private school that's mission is to work with special education students.

Furthermore private schools don't have to be a stringent as public schools about continuing education/ professional development credits, and hire people who do not have degrees in education. So so agsin you end up with teachers who might be comfortable teaching to the middle or teaching to above the middle but not used to working with struggling students.

If you dismiss studies on grounds that they come from organizations whose philosophy you disagree with (including the Fordham Institute?) and that their results are different from your own personal experience, then there's really not much left to talk about, is there? You know what you know.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Where does this 78 percent number come from? Neither you nor I know. I have a feeling if people had real choices they would be leaving the public schools in mass.

Do we want a public school system attended only by kids no private school will accept, and everybody else goes to private school at public expense? Actually there are people who want that. Maybe you are one of them! But I don't want that.

What's currently working in PS for struggling kids? The kids using BOOST are from low-income homes who deserve a better educational experience.

from the article -

Catholic and Jewish school leaders say the money is giving valuable assistance to low-income parents who choose their schools either because they want religious education or because they feel public schools are not a good fit for their children.

I say this as a PS teacher who's been in the system for over 20 years. Nothing has improved for struggling kids. In fact, with the lack of discipline, schools have become more dangerous and the "passing rate" (and I use that sarcastically) is a joke, as we graduate students who can barely read.

I'm appalled at the practices in the public system. My own children are in a solid cluster, but it's only a matter of time before the entire county feels the effects of mismanagement of funds, lack of discipline, and a crew of demoralized teachers.

Your argument is: the public school system is failing some kids, so we should dismantle the public school system.

Keep in mind that THREE consecutive studies have found that vouchers for private schools actually HARM students' education. So regardless of your political philosophies about public education, the fact is that vouchers do not actually give struggling kids a better educational experience.

lol

A child leaving a dangerous school where little to NO learning is occurring will only benefit from being placed in a private setting that sets expectations for students' behavior.

Send me studies from think tanks that aren't left-leaning first - b/c EVERYTHING has a slant. Brookings, for example, which addressed one such study is centrist to liberal.

Furthermore, unless you spend 8+ hours a day working with kids in overcrowded settings, with a sprinkling of some hardcore gang members and students with emotional issues that have gone unnoticed for far too long, I hardly doubt your "studies" can stand up to what we actually see in the classroom. There are plenty of kids trapped in settings who WANT to learn but who can't.

Bethesda doesn't run the system, honey.

Anonymous wrote:Here is the kicker: people on here constantly cry about how much they've paid for their home in the nice neighborhood, so their kids should, of course, have the nice cluster schools.

And people who weren't smart enough or lucky enough or rich enough should stick with their crappy schools.

Something has to change.

You guys in your wonderful clusters would change nothing for these other kids at other schools because it doesn't affect you. You can just admonish those other bad parents of bad children who make bad choices.

Schools are not working for them.

Maybe in the face of having money pulled out of the system, affecting potentially even the funding for the nice clusters, folks here will finally feel the same despair felt by their fellow citizens and either support change that benefits every child, pay for private or watch their schools sink even faster than they are now.

Two faulty assumptions here.

1. People in "good" clusters don't care about people who can't afford to live in "good" clusters. Some do, some don't.
2. Change for the sake of change will make things better. How's that working out, these days?

Here is the kicker: people on here constantly cry about how much they've paid for their home in the nice neighborhood, so their kids should, of course, have the nice cluster schools.

And people who weren't smart enough or lucky enough or rich enough should stick with their crappy schools.

Something has to change.

You guys in your wonderful clusters would change nothing for these other kids at other schools because it doesn't affect you. You can just admonish those other bad parents of bad children who make bad choices.

Schools are not working for them.

Maybe in the face of having money pulled out of the system, affecting potentially even the funding for the nice clusters, folks here will finally feel the same despair felt by their fellow citizens and either support change that benefits every child, pay for private or watch their schools sink even faster than they are now.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Where does this 78 percent number come from? Neither you nor I know. I have a feeling if people had real choices they would be leaving the public schools in mass.

Do we want a public school system attended only by kids no private school will accept, and everybody else goes to private school at public expense? Actually there are people who want that. Maybe you are one of them! But I don't want that.

What's currently working in PS for struggling kids? The kids using BOOST are from low-income homes who deserve a better educational experience.

from the article -

Catholic and Jewish school leaders say the money is giving valuable assistance to low-income parents who choose their schools either because they want religious education or because they feel public schools are not a good fit for their children.

I say this as a PS teacher who's been in the system for over 20 years. Nothing has improved for struggling kids. In fact, with the lack of discipline, schools have become more dangerous and the "passing rate" (and I use that sarcastically) is a joke, as we graduate students who can barely read.

I'm appalled at the practices in the public system. My own children are in a solid cluster, but it's only a matter of time before the entire county feels the effects of mismanagement of funds, lack of discipline, and a crew of demoralized teachers.

Your argument is: the public school system is failing some kids, so we should dismantle the public school system.

Keep in mind that THREE consecutive studies have found that vouchers for private schools actually HARM students' education. So regardless of your political philosophies about public education, the fact is that vouchers do not actually give struggling kids a better educational experience.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Where does this 78 percent number come from? Neither you nor I know. I have a feeling if people had real choices they would be leaving the public schools in mass.

Do we want a public school system attended only by kids no private school will accept, and everybody else goes to private school at public expense? Actually there are people who want that. Maybe you are one of them! But I don't want that.

What's currently working in PS for struggling kids? The kids using BOOST are from low-income homes who deserve a better educational experience.

from the article -

Catholic and Jewish school leaders say the money is giving valuable assistance to low-income parents who choose their schools either because they want religious education or because they feel public schools are not a good fit for their children.

I say this as a PS teacher who's been in the system for over 20 years. Nothing has improved for struggling kids. In fact, with the lack of discipline, schools have become more dangerous and the "passing rate" (and I use that sarcastically) is a joke, as we graduate students who can barely read.

I'm appalled at the practices in the public system. My own children are in a solid cluster, but it's only a matter of time before the entire county feels the effects of mismanagement of funds, lack of discipline, and a crew of demoralized teachers.

Anonymous wrote:

Where does this 78 percent number come from? Neither you nor I know. I have a feeling if people had real choices they would be leaving the public schools in mass.

Do we want a public school system attended only by kids no private school will accept, and everybody else goes to private school at public expense? Actually there are people who want that. Maybe you are one of them! But I don't want that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband and I make 250k combined so we wouldn't get vouchers...but I don't understand the logic for opposing them. I think they'd make the system better. If a private can charge 10k and get a better result than a public that charges the taxpayer 20k.. why not?

Forget for a minute kids with serious disabilities. If the child's only issue is a behavioral one...they need consequences..Though public schools are a "right" hundreds of years ago they were still considered a privilege..people had to farm etc... and students could be expelled.

Because this program is already existence, and 78% of the subsidies have been going to people who already have their kids in private school. Why is that a good thing to subsidize the choices parents would be making with or without government intervention?

Where does this 78 percent number come from? Neither you nor I know. I have a feeling if people had real choices they would be leaving the public schools in mass.

This article https://www.google.com/amp/www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/education/k-12/bs-md-voucher-program-review-20170116-story,amp.html


"public school students in Maryland were able to attend private schools this year through a controversial new program that offers state grants of up to $4,400 to help defray tuition costs, state education officials say.

But most students helped by the program — more than 1,900 — used the money to remain in private schools where they were already enrolled."

Othere points in the article were that the vouchers gave families between 1,000 to 4,400 based on income and couldn't be used at schools with tuition above 14,000 so again no vouchers for Sidwell/St Albsnd/Barrie etc.