Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No one is saying it is. If you read the OP, the suggestion was that NOT saying the pledge was an outrage. No one on this thread has argued that teachers/children/anyone should be prohibited from saying the pledge.

But, some people seem to take pride in not saying it--that is what is sad.

Think of all those young men landing on the beaches in Normandy..........

Random reference to WWII...ok?? But generally our armed forces fight to protect our freedoms, including free speech. It's sad that people don't understand that because it's such a fundamental part of the US history and identity.

The highlighted portion. DH spent 26 years in the military, got to deploy to some lovely garden spots, and the primary reason he served was to protect and defend the Constitution. While he was active duty he carried a pocket sized Constitution with him, as a reminder. If a teacher or student doesn't want to say the pledge, that is OK. Forcing them to say the pledge is wrong.

No one can force us to say the pledge, or sing the Happy Birthday song or even say "Here" during roll call. But unless you have a strong personal/religious reason for not doing so, why not participate?

Why do you need a "strong personal/religious reason"? And who is to judge what is "strong"?

the person who doesn't participate is the one that judges what is strong.

yeah, I have a strong objection to saying "Please" and "Thank you" - that is MY right!

So you equate a pledge of allegiance to common courtesy? Ooooooookay.

You don't appreciate saying the pledge of allegiance to our country. Maybe I don't think I should have to say "Please" or "Thank you" to a person that I don't appreciate or hold in great contempt.

You...don't have to say Please or Thank You. You do you.

But will you think I'm a jerk when you do something nice - like a hold a door, offer me a cookie, pick my kid up from school for me, etc - and I choose not to say "thank you"?

I don't know. It depends. But the conventions of common courtesy are different from the requirements of citizenship or patriotism. You can be patriotic and not say the pledge. If you assume otherwise, that's your misfortune.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess that physicians are allowed to opt out of the Hippocratic oath, too?

Sure. But it's up to the med school to decide if they still graduate.

O.k. so there are possibly some pretty big consequences (not graduating!) for NOT saying the Hippocratic oath. Is that fair? Or do you think that physicians who aren't feeling it shouldn't have to say it?

Medical schools are specific institutions, often private, where people choose to go if they want to be a doctor and therefore choose to subject themselves to that school's specific criteria. I personally don't think physicians should have to say it, because I don't think the only thing keeping us from a fleet of Sweeny Todds is the fact that they chanted words in unison -- we also have laws and ethical requirements that doctors have to follow. But it doesn't matter what I think because I am not a medical school.

But I also don't think this works as an analogy. Again, medical schools house a group of people who chose to go there. The US is full of people who are born here. And even if saying the Hippocratic oath should be required, there's nothing about the pledge that makes it the only way to demonstrate patriotism. Further, demonstrating patriotism is not a prerequisite to being a citizen of the US. Which is one of the things that makes the US great, IMO.

First do no harm. Ha! First give me my paycheck baybee.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No one is saying it is. If you read the OP, the suggestion was that NOT saying the pledge was an outrage. No one on this thread has argued that teachers/children/anyone should be prohibited from saying the pledge.

But, some people seem to take pride in not saying it--that is what is sad.

Think of all those young men landing on the beaches in Normandy..........

Random reference to WWII...ok?? But generally our armed forces fight to protect our freedoms, including free speech. It's sad that people don't understand that because it's such a fundamental part of the US history and identity.

The highlighted portion. DH spent 26 years in the military, got to deploy to some lovely garden spots, and the primary reason he served was to protect and defend the Constitution. While he was active duty he carried a pocket sized Constitution with him, as a reminder. If a teacher or student doesn't want to say the pledge, that is OK. Forcing them to say the pledge is wrong.

No one can force us to say the pledge, or sing the Happy Birthday song or even say "Here" during roll call. But unless you have a strong personal/religious reason for not doing so, why not participate?

Why do you need a "strong personal/religious reason"? And who is to judge what is "strong"?

the person who doesn't participate is the one that judges what is strong.

yeah, I have a strong objection to saying "Please" and "Thank you" - that is MY right!

So you equate a pledge of allegiance to common courtesy? Ooooooookay.

You don't appreciate saying the pledge of allegiance to our country. Maybe I don't think I should have to say "Please" or "Thank you" to a person that I don't appreciate or hold in great contempt.

You...don't have to say Please or Thank You. You do you.

But will you think I'm a jerk when you do something nice - like a hold a door, offer me a cookie, pick my kid up from school for me, etc - and I choose not to say "thank you"?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess that physicians are allowed to opt out of the Hippocratic oath, too?

Sure. But it's up to the med school to decide if they still graduate.

O.k. so there are possibly some pretty big consequences (not graduating!) for NOT saying the Hippocratic oath. Is that fair? Or do you think that physicians who aren't feeling it shouldn't have to say it?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No one is saying it is. If you read the OP, the suggestion was that NOT saying the pledge was an outrage. No one on this thread has argued that teachers/children/anyone should be prohibited from saying the pledge.

But, some people seem to take pride in not saying it--that is what is sad.

Think of all those young men landing on the beaches in Normandy..........

Random reference to WWII...ok?? But generally our armed forces fight to protect our freedoms, including free speech. It's sad that people don't understand that because it's such a fundamental part of the US history and identity.

The highlighted portion. DH spent 26 years in the military, got to deploy to some lovely garden spots, and the primary reason he served was to protect and defend the Constitution. While he was active duty he carried a pocket sized Constitution with him, as a reminder. If a teacher or student doesn't want to say the pledge, that is OK. Forcing them to say the pledge is wrong.

No one can force us to say the pledge, or sing the Happy Birthday song or even say "Here" during roll call. But unless you have a strong personal/religious reason for not doing so, why not participate?

Why do you need a "strong personal/religious reason"? And who is to judge what is "strong"?

the person who doesn't participate is the one that judges what is strong.

yeah, I have a strong objection to saying "Please" and "Thank you" - that is MY right!

So you equate a pledge of allegiance to common courtesy? Ooooooookay.

You don't appreciate saying the pledge of allegiance to our country. Maybe I don't think I should have to say "Please" or "Thank you" to a person that I don't appreciate or hold in great contempt.

You...don't have to say Please or Thank You. You do you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No one is saying it is. If you read the OP, the suggestion was that NOT saying the pledge was an outrage. No one on this thread has argued that teachers/children/anyone should be prohibited from saying the pledge.

But, some people seem to take pride in not saying it--that is what is sad.

Think of all those young men landing on the beaches in Normandy..........

Random reference to WWII...ok?? But generally our armed forces fight to protect our freedoms, including free speech. It's sad that people don't understand that because it's such a fundamental part of the US history and identity.

The highlighted portion. DH spent 26 years in the military, got to deploy to some lovely garden spots, and the primary reason he served was to protect and defend the Constitution. While he was active duty he carried a pocket sized Constitution with him, as a reminder. If a teacher or student doesn't want to say the pledge, that is OK. Forcing them to say the pledge is wrong.

No one can force us to say the pledge, or sing the Happy Birthday song or even say "Here" during roll call. But unless you have a strong personal/religious reason for not doing so, why not participate?

Why do you need a "strong personal/religious reason"? And who is to judge what is "strong"?

the person who doesn't participate is the one that judges what is strong.

yeah, I have a strong objection to saying "Please" and "Thank you" - that is MY right!

So you equate a pledge of allegiance to common courtesy? Ooooooookay.

You don't appreciate saying the pledge of allegiance to our country. Maybe I don't think I should have to say "Please" or "Thank you" to a person that I don't appreciate or hold in great contempt.

Anonymous wrote:I guess that physicians are allowed to opt out of the Hippocratic oath, too?

Sure. But it's up to the med school to decide if they still graduate.

Anonymous wrote:

The highlighted portion. DH spent 26 years in the military, got to deploy to some lovely garden spots, and the primary reason he served was to protect and defend the Constitution. While he was active duty he carried a pocket sized Constitution with him, as a reminder. If a teacher or student doesn't want to say the pledge, that is OK. Forcing them to say the pledge is wrong.

Agree. My problem is why they do not want to say the pledge. Sure, they have the right not to do so, but I also have the right to have an opinion. I find it very sad that people do not feel pride in saying the pledge. Like your president or not, this is still your country and is protecting your right not to say it.

It's hard to feel emotion (pride, etc) over something that you hear, and were/are all but compelled to say, every school day of your life. That's thousands of times. It's watered down to the point that it is virtually meaningless. If the pledge were saved for meaningful and appropriate occasions it would be different.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No one is saying it is. If you read the OP, the suggestion was that NOT saying the pledge was an outrage. No one on this thread has argued that teachers/children/anyone should be prohibited from saying the pledge.

But, some people seem to take pride in not saying it--that is what is sad.

Think of all those young men landing on the beaches in Normandy..........

Random reference to WWII...ok?? But generally our armed forces fight to protect our freedoms, including free speech. It's sad that people don't understand that because it's such a fundamental part of the US history and identity.

The highlighted portion. DH spent 26 years in the military, got to deploy to some lovely garden spots, and the primary reason he served was to protect and defend the Constitution. While he was active duty he carried a pocket sized Constitution with him, as a reminder. If a teacher or student doesn't want to say the pledge, that is OK. Forcing them to say the pledge is wrong.

No one can force us to say the pledge, or sing the Happy Birthday song or even say "Here" during roll call. But unless you have a strong personal/religious reason for not doing so, why not participate?

Why do you need a "strong personal/religious reason"? And who is to judge what is "strong"?

the person who doesn't participate is the one that judges what is strong.

yeah, I have a strong objection to saying "Please" and "Thank you" - that is MY right!

So you equate a pledge of allegiance to common courtesy? Ooooooookay.

I guess that physicians are allowed to opt out of the Hippocratic oath, too?

Anonymous wrote:

The highlighted portion. DH spent 26 years in the military, got to deploy to some lovely garden spots, and the primary reason he served was to protect and defend the Constitution. While he was active duty he carried a pocket sized Constitution with him, as a reminder. If a teacher or student doesn't want to say the pledge, that is OK. Forcing them to say the pledge is wrong.

Agree. My problem is why they do not want to say the pledge. Sure, they have the right not to do so, but I also have the right to have an opinion. I find it very sad that people do not feel pride in saying the pledge. Like your president or not, this is still your country and is protecting your right not to say it.

How do you know why someone doesn't want to say the pledge? There can be lots of reasons. Someone could believe that this country -- for any number of reasons -- isn't interested in "liberty and justice for all," and wants to hold their country, even in some small way, accountable for that because they hold this country to a higher standard. Someone could draw a connection between public pledges and fascism, like PP from earlier in the thread. Someone could be a Jehovah's Witness. Someone could have a problem with the addition of "under God." And someone, like me, could believe that the greatest freedom this country provides is the freedom to criticize, the freedom to protest, the freedom of the minority in addition to the majority and the freedom from forced public devotion, and that declining to say the pledge actually is a better way to honor our country. None of those reasons are anti-patriotic or anti-American, none of them are "sad," and none of them, frankly, are your business.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No one is saying it is. If you read the OP, the suggestion was that NOT saying the pledge was an outrage. No one on this thread has argued that teachers/children/anyone should be prohibited from saying the pledge.

But, some people seem to take pride in not saying it--that is what is sad.

Think of all those young men landing on the beaches in Normandy..........

Random reference to WWII...ok?? But generally our armed forces fight to protect our freedoms, including free speech. It's sad that people don't understand that because it's such a fundamental part of the US history and identity.

The highlighted portion. DH spent 26 years in the military, got to deploy to some lovely garden spots, and the primary reason he served was to protect and defend the Constitution. While he was active duty he carried a pocket sized Constitution with him, as a reminder. If a teacher or student doesn't want to say the pledge, that is OK. Forcing them to say the pledge is wrong.

No one can force us to say the pledge, or sing the Happy Birthday song or even say "Here" during roll call. But unless you have a strong personal/religious reason for not doing so, why not participate?

Why do you need a "strong personal/religious reason"? And who is to judge what is "strong"?

the person who doesn't participate is the one that judges what is strong.

yeah, I have a strong objection to saying "Please" and "Thank you" - that is MY right!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No one is saying it is. If you read the OP, the suggestion was that NOT saying the pledge was an outrage. No one on this thread has argued that teachers/children/anyone should be prohibited from saying the pledge.

But, some people seem to take pride in not saying it--that is what is sad.

Think of all those young men landing on the beaches in Normandy..........

Random reference to WWII...ok?? But generally our armed forces fight to protect our freedoms, including free speech. It's sad that people don't understand that because it's such a fundamental part of the US history and identity.

The highlighted portion. DH spent 26 years in the military, got to deploy to some lovely garden spots, and the primary reason he served was to protect and defend the Constitution. While he was active duty he carried a pocket sized Constitution with him, as a reminder. If a teacher or student doesn't want to say the pledge, that is OK. Forcing them to say the pledge is wrong.

No one can force us to say the pledge, or sing the Happy Birthday song or even say "Here" during roll call. But unless you have a strong personal/religious reason for not doing so, why not participate?

For one, are you sure the teacher is an American?

Oh, obviously I would naturally assume that they are British. Duh.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No one is saying it is. If you read the OP, the suggestion was that NOT saying the pledge was an outrage. No one on this thread has argued that teachers/children/anyone should be prohibited from saying the pledge.

But, some people seem to take pride in not saying it--that is what is sad.

Think of all those young men landing on the beaches in Normandy..........

Random reference to WWII...ok?? But generally our armed forces fight to protect our freedoms, including free speech. It's sad that people don't understand that because it's such a fundamental part of the US history and identity.

The highlighted portion. DH spent 26 years in the military, got to deploy to some lovely garden spots, and the primary reason he served was to protect and defend the Constitution. While he was active duty he carried a pocket sized Constitution with him, as a reminder. If a teacher or student doesn't want to say the pledge, that is OK. Forcing them to say the pledge is wrong.

No one can force us to say the pledge, or sing the Happy Birthday song or even say "Here" during roll call. But unless you have a strong personal/religious reason for not doing so, why not participate?

Why do you need a "strong personal/religious reason"? And who is to judge what is "strong"?

the person who doesn't participate is the one that judges what is strong.