Anonymous wrote:Without getting into all the other arguments, I did have a question which has always bothered me: For those of you who say "they have broken the law, therefore they should leave", have you never broken any law? Do you ever speed? I really do not get this moral superiority of "it's illegal",

So, all laws are equivalent then huh? Murder, speeding... whatever it's all law breaking right? Is it possible that some law breaking is more consequential than other law breaking? Do you feel that violating immigration laws is the same level of "law breaking" as speeding? I wonder how Mexico treats illegal immigrants? Well, wonder no more:

"Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals"

Think they have the same penalties for speeding? If not why?

Without getting into all the other arguments, I did have a question which has always bothered me: For those of you who say "they have broken the law, therefore they should leave", have you never broken any law? Do you ever speed? I really do not get this moral superiority of "it's illegal",

maybe states should switch from an income tax to a much higher sales tax to ensure collection of taxes from illegals. not a fix to the whole broken immigration system, but would certainly help fund their free healthcare, food stamps, ESL, school lunches, medicaid for their kids, etc.

Anonymous wrote:Trumpsters are deceived and because they are in a trance due to Stockholm syndrome. They wont change their no matter what Trump says or does.

Trump now says that Obama is heartless for deporting illegal immigrants. He says he has a large heart and mass deportation on the scale of Obama is not in his plan.

“President Obama has mass deported vast numbers of people -- the most ever, and it’s never reported. I think people are going to find that I have not only the best policies, but I will have the biggest heart of anybody,” Trump said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-06-25/trump-says-immigration-plan-wouldn-t-feature-mass-deportations

I love how Trump is always the best. The smartest, the most compassionate, the most religious (well, I haven't heard him say that yet but I'm sure he will), the best everything.

However, he does not seem to be the best at consistency. I'm pretty sure he promised to deport "all the illegals" the first day he got into office. "The very first day, it gets signed." Etc.

Trumpsters are deceived and because they are in a trance due to Stockholm syndrome. They wont change their no matter what Trump says or does.

Trump now says that Obama is heartless for deporting illegal immigrants. He says he has a large heart and mass deportation on the scale of Obama is not in his plan.

“President Obama has mass deported vast numbers of people -- the most ever, and it’s never reported. I think people are going to find that I have not only the best policies, but I will have the biggest heart of anybody,” Trump said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-06-25/trump-says-immigration-plan-wouldn-t-feature-mass-deportations

15:35, so when is enough enough? 20 million? 30, 40?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone here illegally should be deported. Period. I voted for Obama twice but feel so strongly about immigration that I just might vote for Trump.

That's nice. Here in the real world, life is a little more complex.

No, it's not. Which part of "illegal" don't you understand?

Which part of "building a YUGE wall is completely impractical for any number of economic, fiscal, political and moral reasons" don't you understand?
Which part of a significant portion of U.S. businesses rely on undocumented labor do you not understand?
Which part of "you can't deport the U.S. citizen children of undocumented immigrants" do you not understand?
Which part of "tearing families apart" do you not understand?
Which part of "undocumented immigants pay taxes for governmental programs they can't use" do you not understand?
Which part of "the vast majority of undocumented immigrants are otherwise law-abiding people trying to better their lives and it's ridiculous and hateful to target a whole group of people because of the behavior of a few" do you not understand?

Bottom line: "Anyone here illegally should be deported. Period." is a statement of such breathtaking ignorance and myopia that it quite literally boggles my mind that someone could be so manifestly dumb as to make it.

You are bringing emotion into a rational argument.

The immigration laws are only worth anything at all if they are enforced. It's not inhumane for a country to have an immigration policy that decides who gets in, and who doesn't. And it's not inhumane to introduce consequences for not obeying it. Is there a human cost to this? Yes, there is. But - if you ignore immigration laws, why have them at all?

Now, let's take your points, at least some of them.

You don't have to build a wall to have a meaningful immigration policy and enforce it.

If businesses rely on illegal immigrant labor, they should not do so, and should be punished.

You cannot deport US citizen children of illegal immigrants, and it's not happening now, so don't make things up.

Families don't have to get torn apart - they can all leave together.

It's wrong to demonize the illegal immigrant population, but it's not wrong to acknowledge that they broke the law, and that there are consequences to this action.

Anonymous wrote:Out out out. Get them out. Make avenues for legal immigration better and easier. Secure the borders and make them leave. Deport them. Fine businesses and people that give them work 500,000 first offense, 1-2 million after that. If they don't pay revoke business licenses and seize assets.

Prove citizenship to use public services such as school, DMV. Make it bad for them to live here so they leave and come back using legal channels.

So legal immigrants can't use public schools or drive? You have the same knee jerk reaction as trump?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone here illegally should be deported. Period. I voted for Obama twice but feel so strongly about immigration that I just might vote for Trump.

That's nice. Here in the real world, life is a little more complex.

No, it's not. Which part of "illegal" don't you understand?

Which part of "building a YUGE wall is completely impractical for any number of economic, fiscal, political and moral reasons" don't you understand?
Which part of a significant portion of U.S. businesses rely on undocumented labor do you not understand?
Which part of "you can't deport the U.S. citizen children of undocumented immigrants" do you not understand?
Which part of "tearing families apart" do you not understand?
Which part of "undocumented immigants pay taxes for governmental programs they can't use" do you not understand?
Which part of "the vast majority of undocumented immigrants are otherwise law-abiding people trying to better their lives and it's ridiculous and hateful to target a whole group of people because of the behavior of a few" do you not understand?

Bottom line: "Anyone here illegally should be deported. Period." is a statement of such breathtaking ignorance and myopia that it quite literally boggles my mind that someone could be so manifestly dumb as to make it.

I'm against those who come here illegally. I understand where you came from is a horrible place, but there are legal channels and procedures for a reason.

The town I live in has one section that has a huge Hispanic population with about 80% of them illegal (I know this is a true because I work for a program that deals directly with many of them). Because of the number of ESL kids in this one section, the county buses them to various different schools instead of sending them all to a few schools and creating Title 1 schools. So instead of a few schools getting the Title I distinction and extra resources to help the kids, many school's resources get stretched too thin trying to accommodate the ESL kids.

This is the main reason why we put our kids in private school. The teacher would do a lesson and then while she was helping the ESL kids along with the ESL teachers, various kids would also be enlisted to help. Instead of getting to finish her work in class like the other kids, the non-ESL kids had their work become homework so that they could spend their class time trying to help the struggling kids. Nope. That was the last straw. I don't blame the teachers at all because they are doing the best they can. I fully blame the school system for failing these teachers and kids.

My DD's 5th grade class had 27 kids with 13 of them ESL. That was ridiculous. When half of the class needs assistance understanding every aspect of their learning, you've got a serious problem.

And like I said, the program I work for is available to low-income people who need it. Out of those who use our assistance, 78% are from this section of town and 80% of them are undocumented. And out of those people, 90% speak little to no English. I've dealt with some people for 6+ years and they have basically refused to learn English.

We have so many programs and so much to offer, but they also have to be willing to help themselves. Most do not and year after year we serve and assist them. It's those that come and work to better themselves through our free programs that really keep me going. Some days I want to quit and move to another career because it seems hopeless. We give so much and those taking never seem to give back.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel bad for them. It usually means life is so awful that they are willing to risk their own lives and sometimes the lives of their family to try to better their situation. And then they are demonized here by people who get to buy houses and fruit for less money due to their cheap labor (work that no American would want to do).

My DH is in law enforcement and so many are here purely to make money from drugs. They bring it here, find saps to sell it and kill people with heroin.

May I respectfully suggest that your husband, being in law enforcement, is being exposed to a skewed sample?

Can you show me a not skewed samples? I am not in law enforcement, but I do come across a lot of illegal immigrants in my job. A lot of them are criminals, mostly petit crimes, drugs, domestic violence. Saw hundreds of them who were previosly deported once or twice, are back, under different identity. For those who says that they are not eligible for any benefits it would be an eye opener to find out how many of them do receive benefits by virtue of fraud. It is sad to see how stupid Americans are who letting this people to rip them off. But again, Americans never been the smartest nation, so I guess they are getting what they deserve.

Let's consider something here, assume that there are in fact 11 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. and only 1 in 10 are involved in an act of crime, well, we would be hearing volumes about it and we aren't. Based on what you and the pp are saying that would appear to be more than 10%.

You and the pp who's dh is in law enforcement are throwing out facts, some are criminals, as if they are the rule as opposed to the exception. A lot? How many is that? What is your profession?

Well, it's evident you both have little grasp, much less first hand experience, and are attempting to use your small sample as if it represents this as a whole. I on the other hand have been around this for decades.

Oh, and what I put in bold, says a hell of a lot about you!

Not the PP, but an immigrant, so I have an outside perspective, so to speak. Sadly, I have to agree, whatever it may say about me. The survival of the fittest is not in America's future.

Anonymous wrote:I honestly think there is nothing more American than to struggle and fight, to get here by any means, then to bust your @ss so your kids have it better. Hispanic immigrants, as an example, are more upwardly mobile than almost any other group. I'll post a link if that seems wrong to someone.

It may be right, because they start from complete dirt. Unlike Asians, for instance.

Anyway, "any means" have not been American for a long long time. The main reason we're so attractive is a we're the nation of laws that are enforced. Well, were enforced anyway. As the law and order deteriorate, we'll see less economic advantage and less immigration as a result.

Anonymous wrote:I honestly think there is nothing more American than to struggle and fight, to get here by any means, then to bust your @ss so your kids have it better. Hispanic immigrants, as an example, are more upwardly mobile than almost any other group. I'll post a link if that seems wrong to someone.

In some aspects, it's a zero-sum game. How many ESL children are in your child's class? Is it too little, too much, just right? How is it compared to a public school in El Paso?

You see, sharing is awesome. Right until the minute you have to share. Then it's not awesome

Anonymous wrote:I honestly think there is nothing more American than to struggle and fight, to get here by any means, then to bust your @ss so your kids have it better. Hispanic immigrants, as an example, are more upwardly mobile than almost any other group. I'll post a link if that seems wrong to someone.

I agree that it is very American to make a better life for your kids. Legally.
I have no issue with Hispanics, or any other person, who fights to get here legally.
I do have a problem with people who break our laws to get here. I don’t consider that “by any means.” If they see fit to break our laws to get in, they have proven themselves law-breakers by nature and these are people we should not accept as citizens.

I honestly think there is nothing more American than to struggle and fight, to get here by any means, then to bust your @ss so your kids have it better. Hispanic immigrants, as an example, are more upwardly mobile than almost any other group. I'll post a link if that seems wrong to someone.