Anonymous wrote:Sanders is great at assigning blame for a lot of things, but he hasn't really done much about them and his proposals are sanctimonious ideals that ignore political feasibility.

If you define feminism as yelling about injustice while criticizing everyone who tries to work out practical remedies, then I guess he is a feminist. I don't think that is the way most feminists would define feminism, though.

I think that most feminists would define feminism as: the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Sanders fits that definition. Clinton does not because of the damage she has done to women by advocating for welfare reform, NAFTA and TPP. Global trade agreements have hurt women disproportionately. Welfare reform has had dire effects on women. These are not just "mistakes." The Clintons have done a lot of harm.

It's not just a "rhetorical device" - there's tons of porn catering to bondage and rape fantasies for both men and women. Sadly it's not "rhetoric" - it's real whether people want to acknowledge it or not. Sanders was pointing out the fact that whether we like it or not, it is real and that entire cottage industries flourish around our sexual and gender dysfunctions.

Sanders is great at assigning blame for a lot of things, but he hasn't really done much about them and his proposals are sanctimonious ideals that ignore political feasibility.

If you define feminism as yelling about injustice while criticizing everyone who tries to work out practical remedies, then I guess he is a feminist. I don't think that is the way most feminists would define feminism, though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:... The Clinton supporters have posted ... comparisons between Sanders and Trump which made no sense whatsoever. The ugliness has been one sided unless you believe it is an insult to say that Clinton is not what I consider a feminist but some people would see that as a compliment.

C'mon now, how are we going to have any constructive discussions if you try to suggest that it's a compliment when Sanders supporters say Clinton is not a feminist. You and I both know that's an insult to Clinton. It's the kind of stuff that should stop.

If you really want to say it's actually a compliment to say Clinton is not a feminist, then I suppose by the same logic it could be considered a compliment by some people to say Sanders is a lot like Trump. Would you consider that a fair comparison?

Let's stop with the unfair attacks please.

- Syd

I stand by my words. Clinton does not fit my definition of a feminist and it is not an unfair "attack." We are talking about policy here. On another thread you called Sanders a "megalomaniac." That is an insult. I have said nothing of the sort about Clinton though if I wanted to get ugly like that, I could. Feminists are allowed to discuss what they believe constitutes a "real" feminist without insulting each other. This happens in academia all the time.

I stand by my words too. Sanders fits my definition of a megalomaniac, so it is not an unfair attack. If you truly want to maintain that you're not intending to insult Hillary Clinton when you say she's not a feminist, I think you are being disingenuous. Are you really going to take that position?

If you can't see the difference between discussing anti-woman policy decisions and posting an insult like "megalomaniac," I see no point in discussing this any further with you. I can see that you don't like my thread and you don't agree that Hillary Clinton is not a feminist but criticism and meaningful discussion are different from unfounded insults. If you want to post a thread about the "megalomania" that you perceive, then go right ahead. I will not attempt to have your thread locked.

Anonymous wrote:

I think it's unfair to Sanders to quote the incendiary parts of this piece without noting that Sanders is really calling for something more positive. Read in fair context, it seems clear the incendiary parts are meant to grab attention and reflect a reality that Sanders is suggesting we try to shed. Yes, it's bad, melodramatic 1970s writing, but it's not intended to denigrate women.

I know some Sanders supporters will lift quotes out of context to unfairly attack Clinton. So it might feel justified to cite this piece in retaliation. But I think we Clinton supporters should stick to fair discussions of the issues. I believe Clinton prevails over Sanders on a fair discussion of the issues, so let's keep it there.

I hope Sanders supporters will hold themselves to the same standard of conduct.

- Syd (Clinton supporter)

The point isn't that Sanders wants to tie women up. We all know that's not true. The point is that Sanders thinks (thought) rape was an appropriate "attention grabbing" rhetorical device.

I disagree.

Fair point. I'd encourage you to make that aspect of the criticism clear, because otherwise it's too easy to dismiss (like I did initially).

- Syd

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:... The Clinton supporters have posted ... comparisons between Sanders and Trump which made no sense whatsoever. The ugliness has been one sided unless you believe it is an insult to say that Clinton is not what I consider a feminist but some people would see that as a compliment.

C'mon now, how are we going to have any constructive discussions if you try to suggest that it's a compliment when Sanders supporters say Clinton is not a feminist. You and I both know that's an insult to Clinton. It's the kind of stuff that should stop.

If you really want to say it's actually a compliment to say Clinton is not a feminist, then I suppose by the same logic it could be considered a compliment by some people to say Sanders is a lot like Trump. Would you consider that a fair comparison?

Let's stop with the unfair attacks please.

- Syd

I stand by my words. Clinton does not fit my definition of a feminist and it is not an unfair "attack." We are talking about policy here. On another thread you called Sanders a "megalomaniac." That is an insult. I have said nothing of the sort about Clinton though if I wanted to get ugly like that, I could. Feminists are allowed to discuss what they believe constitutes a "real" feminist without insulting each other. This happens in academia all the time.

I stand by my words too. Sanders fits my definition of a megalomaniac, so it is not an unfair attack. If you truly want to maintain that you're not intending to insult Hillary Clinton when you say she's not a feminist, I think you are being disingenuous. Are you really going to take that position?

^ Oh, please. You need to get beyond the 5 second sound bite.

The Bernie Sanders "rape fantasy" story has been discussed and addressed many times. Yes, he led the essay off with some shocking and attention getting scenarios. But the essay wasn't about rape fantasies, it was about how the traditional rigid gender roles, religious repression of sexuality, artificial social norms and preconceptions have led to dysfunctional relationships (like rape and bondage fantasies) and how they have taken people, both men and women, down bizarre and dark paths. In his essay, he was pointing the rape fantasy out as NOT being a good thing.

And there's some validity to it. Just look at all of the uptight supposedly moral right wingers keep ending up in bizarre sex scandals like Larry "Wide Stance" Craig and David "Diapers" Vitter. Or look at how religious sexual repression actually leads to more depraved sexual behavior in the Middle East and Pakistan.

I think it's unfair to Sanders to quote the incendiary parts of this piece without noting that Sanders is really calling for something more positive. Read in fair context, it seems clear the incendiary parts are meant to grab attention and reflect a reality that Sanders is suggesting we try to shed. Yes, it's bad, melodramatic 1970s writing, but it's not intended to denigrate women.

I know some Sanders supporters will lift quotes out of context to unfairly attack Clinton. So it might feel justified to cite this piece in retaliation. But I think we Clinton supporters should stick to fair discussions of the issues. I believe Clinton prevails over Sanders on a fair discussion of the issues, so let's keep it there.

I hope Sanders supporters will hold themselves to the same standard of conduct.

- Syd (Clinton supporter)

The point isn't that Sanders wants to tie women up. We all know that's not true. The point is that Sanders thinks (thought) rape was an appropriate "attention grabbing" rhetorical device.

I disagree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one has lifted any quotes of Clinton's unfairly on this thread. The Clinton supporters have posted plenty of ridiculous stuff, including comparisons between Sanders and Trump which made no sense whatsoever. The ugliness has been one sided unless you believe it is an insult to say that Clinton is not what I consider a feminist but some people would see that as a compliment.

OK, you say "the ugliness has been one sided." If we go back through the thread and find examples of Sanders supporters being ugly, will you apologize to the Clinton supporters and join with me in asking Jeff to lock this thread? If I cannot find any examples, I'll apologize.

If you're so confident, this should be easy bet for you.

- Syd

Why are you being so controlling? No, I do not want this thread locked and I cannot say that with absolute confidence. I can say that I have not posted anything insulting in my opinion. If you want to find something that you find insulting, please be my guest.

You did claim the ugliness was entirely one-sided. Kind of a big claim.

In my opinion, it has been one-sided. It is a very different thing to discuss policy than it is to hurl insults and post ridiculous anti-Bernie propaganda.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:... The Clinton supporters have posted ... comparisons between Sanders and Trump which made no sense whatsoever. The ugliness has been one sided unless you believe it is an insult to say that Clinton is not what I consider a feminist but some people would see that as a compliment.

C'mon now, how are we going to have any constructive discussions if you try to suggest that it's a compliment when Sanders supporters say Clinton is not a feminist. You and I both know that's an insult to Clinton. It's the kind of stuff that should stop.

If you really want to say it's actually a compliment to say Clinton is not a feminist, then I suppose by the same logic it could be considered a compliment by some people to say Sanders is a lot like Trump. Would you consider that a fair comparison?

Let's stop with the unfair attacks please.

- Syd

I stand by my words. Clinton does not fit my definition of a feminist and it is not an unfair "attack." We are talking about policy here. On another thread you called Sanders a "megalomaniac." That is an insult. I have said nothing of the sort about Clinton though if I wanted to get ugly like that, I could. Feminists are allowed to discuss what they believe constitutes a "real" feminist without insulting each other. This happens in academia all the time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one has lifted any quotes of Clinton's unfairly on this thread. The Clinton supporters have posted plenty of ridiculous stuff, including comparisons between Sanders and Trump which made no sense whatsoever. The ugliness has been one sided unless you believe it is an insult to say that Clinton is not what I consider a feminist but some people would see that as a compliment.

OK, you say "the ugliness has been one sided." If we go back through the thread and find examples of Sanders supporters being ugly, will you apologize to the Clinton supporters and join with me in asking Jeff to lock this thread? If I cannot find any examples, I'll apologize.

If you're so confident, this should be easy bet for you.

- Syd

Why are you being so controlling? No, I do not want this thread locked and I cannot say that with absolute confidence. I can say that I have not posted anything insulting in my opinion. If you want to find something that you find insulting, please be my guest.

You did claim the ugliness was entirely one-sided. Kind of a big claim.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one has lifted any quotes of Clinton's unfairly on this thread. The Clinton supporters have posted plenty of ridiculous stuff, including comparisons between Sanders and Trump which made no sense whatsoever. The ugliness has been one sided unless you believe it is an insult to say that Clinton is not what I consider a feminist but some people would see that as a compliment.

OK, you say "the ugliness has been one sided." If we go back through the thread and find examples of Sanders supporters being ugly, will you apologize to the Clinton supporters and join with me in asking Jeff to lock this thread? If I cannot find any examples, I'll apologize.

If you're so confident, this should be easy bet for you.

- Syd

Why are you being so controlling? No, I do not want this thread locked and I cannot say that with absolute confidence. I can say that I have not posted anything insulting in my opinion. If you want to find something that you find insulting, please be my guest.

Anonymous wrote:... The Clinton supporters have posted ... comparisons between Sanders and Trump which made no sense whatsoever. The ugliness has been one sided unless you believe it is an insult to say that Clinton is not what I consider a feminist but some people would see that as a compliment.

C'mon now, how are we going to have any constructive discussions if you try to suggest that it's a compliment when Sanders supporters say Clinton is not a feminist. You and I both know that's an insult to Clinton. It's the kind of stuff that should stop.

If you really want to say it's actually a compliment to say Clinton is not a feminist, then I suppose by the same logic it could be considered a compliment by some people to say Sanders is a lot like Trump. Would you consider that a fair comparison?

Let's stop with the unfair attacks please.

- Syd

Anonymous wrote:No one has lifted any quotes of Clinton's unfairly on this thread. The Clinton supporters have posted plenty of ridiculous stuff, including comparisons between Sanders and Trump which made no sense whatsoever. The ugliness has been one sided unless you believe it is an insult to say that Clinton is not what I consider a feminist but some people would see that as a compliment.

OK, you say "the ugliness has been one sided." If we go back through the thread and find examples of Sanders supporters being ugly, will you apologize to the Clinton supporters and join with me in asking Jeff to lock this thread? If I cannot find any examples, I'll apologize.

If you're so confident, this should be easy bet for you.

- Syd

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh come on... Not that again. Please show some maturity. That article has been beaten to death and has no bearing on anything.

Oh come on yourself. On a thread in which OP claimed that Bernie is the real feminist, seems pretty relevant to me.

...plus it was in direct response to someone who said the great thing about Bernie was how consistent he was on feminist issues. In that case, bringing up his previous writings seems very appropriate.

The article is not inconsistent with feminism. He is writing about the negative impact of gender on sexuality. It is just written very badly as he has admitted.

That's fair. But I still agree with the article I posted a few pages back. He's a reliable voter for women's issue, but he's not a leader. He hasn't lived it. Hillary is a leader, and she has most certainly lived it.