Anonymous
05/12/2015 15:10
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
Re Geller:
If you think a prohibition on behavior X is dumb, the most logical and best way to challenge the prohibition is to do X. And do it again and again until the stigma of doing X is gone and the prohibition looks silly. If certain Muslims want to not draw their prophet, they don't have to, but they don't get to tell non-muslims who don't hold that belief what they can and cannot draw. I like what Geller did.
The anti-Geller posters all begin by assuming that a prohibition on drawing Mohammed is a good and defensible belief of all or most muslims, but it's not. It is of relatively recent origin and isn't universally accepted. Imagine you were a muslim who disagreed that this prohibition was scriptural but was seeing it become a commonplace (mis)interpretation of the Koran/Hadith. What might you do to oppose it become settled doctrine? Draw Mohammed...
If you think a prohibition on behavior X is dumb, the most logical and best way to challenge the prohibition is to do X. And do it again and again until the stigma of doing X is gone and the prohibition looks silly. If certain Muslims want to not draw their prophet, they don't have to, but they don't get to tell non-muslims who don't hold that belief what they can and cannot draw. I like what Geller did.
The anti-Geller posters all begin by assuming that a prohibition on drawing Mohammed is a good and defensible belief of all or most muslims, but it's not. It is of relatively recent origin and isn't universally accepted. Imagine you were a muslim who disagreed that this prohibition was scriptural but was seeing it become a commonplace (mis)interpretation of the Koran/Hadith. What might you do to oppose it become settled doctrine? Draw Mohammed...
Anonymous
05/12/2015 14:28
Subject: Re:Pamela Geller is nuts
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:(^^I'm the one who posted this^^)
So the laws do exist and are sometimes not enforced or people break the law and do it anyway. But the laws are there.
How aggressively does government pursue prosecution?
Probably as aggressively as any government pursues any violations against women. But what does this have to do with Islam?
Anonymous
05/12/2015 13:50
Subject: Re:Pamela Geller is nuts
Anonymous wrote:(^^I'm the one who posted this^^)
So the laws do exist and are sometimes not enforced or people break the law and do it anyway. But the laws are there.
How aggressively does government pursue prosecution?
Anonymous
05/12/2015 13:48
Subject: Re:Pamela Geller is nuts
And I'm not sure where your argument is going.
Anonymous
05/12/2015 13:47
Subject: Re:Pamela Geller is nuts
(^^I'm the one who posted this^^)
So the laws do exist and are sometimes not enforced or people break the law and do it anyway. But the laws are there.
So the laws do exist and are sometimes not enforced or people break the law and do it anyway. But the laws are there.
Anonymous
05/12/2015 13:45
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:And your absolute lack of compassion or care that millions of women and girls live under a religion that can and will kill them for writing poetry, daring to be raped, etc, as well as not allowing them basic human rights is stunning, and telling.
Do you really think this treatment of women is unique to Islam? It must be nice to live in your world, where nobody ever gets raped, justice is always served, and no woman is ever killed for petty reasons (or no reason).
When a government of a country condones the treatment of women, it's an issue.
Defenders of Islam never address that truth.
Yes, because this never happens anywhere else.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-militarys-sexual-assault-problem-is-worse-than-people-realize-2015-5
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/confessions-of-military-sexual-trauma-whisper#.sppKbv7YK
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/09/sexual-violence-american-military-photos
"Women in the US military are being raped and sexually assaulted by their colleagues in record numbers. An estimated 26,000 rapes and sexual assaults took place in the military in 2012, the last year that statistic is available; only 1 in 7 victims reported their attacks, and just 1 in 10 of those cases went to trial."
Does the US prosecute rape, i.e. is rape against the law in this country? If the Feds aren't enforcing that law, then it's a problem. But the law does exist.
From UNICEF (http://www.childinfo.org/files/FGCM_Lo_res.pdf):
"Twenty-six countries in Africa and the Middle East have prohibited
FGM/C by law or constitutional decree. Two of them
– South Africa and Zambia – are not among the 29 countries
where the practice is concentrated (see Table 2.1). With the exception
of Guinea and the Central African Republic, where
bans on FGM/C were instituted in the mid-1960s, the process
of enacting legislation or revising the criminal code to
outlaw the practice began to take hold in Africa quite recently.
Legislation prohibiting FGM/C has also been adopted in
33 countries on other continents, mostly to protect children
with origins in practising countries.29"
Anonymous
05/12/2015 13:29
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:I am talking about the mistreatment of women - I am addressing the first part of your multiple-part question.
When you can find in even a weak Hadith that FGM is appropriate in some fashion, there is a problem to be exploited by those of that religion that choose to exploit it. People asked for proof that it's in a Hadith. I gave them that. Now they say that the Hadith is weak. I simply answered their question.
You wrote this about FGM, "And when the government and religion are so intricately tied together that they operate as one, it's certainly a problem" but now imply that there is no such government in existence. So, are you saying this is not a problem?
I was stating that about the mistreatment of women, which was the first part of your post. Go back and read it.
jsteele
05/12/2015 13:27
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
Anonymous wrote:I am talking about the mistreatment of women - I am addressing the first part of your multiple-part question.
When you can find in even a weak Hadith that FGM is appropriate in some fashion, there is a problem to be exploited by those of that religion that choose to exploit it. People asked for proof that it's in a Hadith. I gave them that. Now they say that the Hadith is weak. I simply answered their question.
You wrote this about FGM, "And when the government and religion are so intricately tied together that they operate as one, it's certainly a problem" but now imply that there is no such government in existence. So, are you saying this is not a problem?
Anonymous
05/12/2015 13:21
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
Muslima, why are you in this country (if you are in this country) rather than the country of your birth, or your ancestors birth? My family is here because they ran to escape persecution. My Bah'ai friends, same thing. Is that why you are in this country?
Anonymous
05/12/2015 13:19
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:And your absolute lack of compassion or care that millions of women and girls live under a religion that can and will kill them for writing poetry, daring to be raped, etc, as well as not allowing them basic human rights is stunning, and telling.
Do you really think this treatment of women is unique to Islam? It must be nice to live in your world, where nobody ever gets raped, justice is always served, and no woman is ever killed for petty reasons (or no reason).
When a government of a country condones the treatment of women, it's an issue.
Defenders of Islam never address that truth.
Yes, because this never happens anywhere else.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-militarys-sexual-assault-problem-is-worse-than-people-realize-2015-5
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/confessions-of-military-sexual-trauma-whisper#.sppKbv7YK
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/09/sexual-violence-american-military-photos
"Women in the US military are being raped and sexually assaulted by their colleagues in record numbers. An estimated 26,000 rapes and sexual assaults took place in the military in 2012, the last year that statistic is available; only 1 in 7 victims reported their attacks, and just 1 in 10 of those cases went to trial."
Does the US prosecute rape, i.e. is rape against the law in this country? If the Feds aren't enforcing that law, then it's a problem. But the law does exist.
Anonymous
05/12/2015 13:18
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:
When a government of a country condones the treatment of women, it's an issue.
Defenders of Islam never address that truth.
If a government contents mistreatment of women, that is an issue with that government. It is not an issue with the religion, particularly if the vast majority of the religion's adherents don't agree with the mistreatment.
There are Christians and Jews that practice FGM. Why are you not attacking those religions?
And when the government and religion are so intricately tied together that they operate as one, it's certainly a problem.
It would be a problem in THIS country and that is why the Constitution was written as it was, and why we have a series of checks and balances. It's the equivalent of the extreme religious right running this country - i.e. putting Westboro Baptist in charge.
To which country are you referring? You appear to be blowing smoke. Which country's government condones FGM and is led by the extreme religious right?
I am talking about the mistreatment of women - I am addressing the first part of your multiple-part question.
When you can find in even a weak Hadith that FGM is appropriate in some fashion, there is a problem to be exploited by those of that religion that choose to exploit it. People asked for proof that it's in a Hadith. I gave them that. Now they say that the Hadith is weak. I simply answered their question.
It is not a small portion of Islam that doesn't stand for gay rights or women's rights as compared to other religions.
Anonymous
05/12/2015 13:15
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Also, what is your take n female genital mutilation?
Is that "stupid" and fake as well?
http://egyptianstreets.com/2015/05/10/92-of-married-women-in-egypt-have-undergone-female-genital-mutilation/
Most married women in Egypt went through genital mutilation - health minister
Published time: May 11, 2015 17:17
"Some 92 percent of married women in Egypt underwent female genital mutilation, the country’s health minister said, citing a recent study. He added that the majority of girls face this ordeal when they are only nine to 12 years old.
The results of the Egypt Demographic and Health Survey (EDHS) were announced by Health Minister Adel Adawy at a Sunday conference dedicated to the study, Egyptian media reported. The poll was carried out last year and involved women aged 15 to 49.
According to the minister, only 31 percent of the operations are carried out by doctors, with most being performed by traditional midwives and “health barbers.”
The rate of female circumcision in rural places is extremely high – almost 95 percent while in urban areas it reaches 39.2 percent, the minister said."
It is barbarous and beyond disgusting.
It isn't rare, either. It isn't a lie or "stupid" to point out Islam mutilates women.
Can you point me to the text in "Islam" that promotes the mutilation of women? I'll wait...
Check the Hadiths.
Which Hadith, exactly? Please point me in the right direction. As a muslim woman, I'm curious to know which part of my religion mandates this and why islam is cutting off people's genitals.
The poster has no clue what they are saying.
It's mentioned for sure. This is where justification is found for the practice.
http://islamqa.info/en/427
What exactly have you read and understood from this link? Because as a practicing Muslim, islamQa is the last place I go when I have a question. And even they are saying its not required and the justification is possibly not even based on an authentic source soooo...
It might not be required, but it's certainly written. You can say the source isn't accurate, but that doesn't make it so.
You don't even know what you are reading.
Anonymous
05/12/2015 13:15
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
Anonymous wrote:
When a government of a country condones the treatment of women, it's an issue.
Defenders of Islam never address that truth.
It has been pointed out that this is an issue with Islamic countries in Africa, but not elsewhere. There are large populations of Muslims in many Asian, the Pacific Islands and even here in the US. And yet those countries and governments do not have a significant issue with FGM. It has also been highlighted that Islam does not dictate this, but only certain sects and countries. So, why would you blame something that is a problem in certain Muslim nations on the religion? Are there any other nations that you blame for the issues of the dominant religion even if the religion doesn't promote the specific issue?
You seem to have a very unique grasp of cause and effect.
jsteele
05/12/2015 13:04
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
Anonymous wrote:jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:
When a government of a country condones the treatment of women, it's an issue.
Defenders of Islam never address that truth.
If a government contents mistreatment of women, that is an issue with that government. It is not an issue with the religion, particularly if the vast majority of the religion's adherents don't agree with the mistreatment.
There are Christians and Jews that practice FGM. Why are you not attacking those religions?
And when the government and religion are so intricately tied together that they operate as one, it's certainly a problem.
It would be a problem in THIS country and that is why the Constitution was written as it was, and why we have a series of checks and balances. It's the equivalent of the extreme religious right running this country - i.e. putting Westboro Baptist in charge.
To which country are you referring? You appear to be blowing smoke. Which country's government condones FGM and is led by the extreme religious right?
Anonymous
05/12/2015 12:59
Subject: Pamela Geller is nuts
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:And your absolute lack of compassion or care that millions of women and girls live under a religion that can and will kill them for writing poetry, daring to be raped, etc, as well as not allowing them basic human rights is stunning, and telling.
Do you really think this treatment of women is unique to Islam? It must be nice to live in your world, where nobody ever gets raped, justice is always served, and no woman is ever killed for petty reasons (or no reason).
When a government of a country condones the treatment of women, it's an issue.
Defenders of Islam never address that truth.
Yes, because this never happens anywhere else.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-militarys-sexual-assault-problem-is-worse-than-people-realize-2015-5
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/confessions-of-military-sexual-trauma-whisper#.sppKbv7YK
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/09/sexual-violence-american-military-photos
"Women in the US military are being raped and sexually assaulted by their colleagues in record numbers. An estimated 26,000 rapes and sexual assaults took place in the military in 2012, the last year that statistic is available; only 1 in 7 victims reported their attacks, and just 1 in 10 of those cases went to trial."