Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does DH go shopping with you, make the purchasing decisions and stand in line and pay for things like clothes for you and DC or food?

Wow, uncalled for. I'm not a muslim, either. It doesn't hold a candle to threads on Christianity. (Can you imagine how "I'm a Catholic, ask me anything?" would turn out?) But maybe we can all try to be respectful??

OP here: PP, totally okay. I'm okay with his or her question. It doesn't offend me.

Not the OP but also Muslim -- I don't even get the point of this question. I don't know if it there is an Islamic rule that only men/husbands can buy and pay for things for the family; if there is, I certainly never knew about it before. In some Muslim families (as with every religion I'm sure) if you necessarily waited for DH to realize that groceries or kids' clothing or whatever was needed, the kids may end up hungry and cold for a long while. In other families, the men are super organized and are the ones who keep the grocery lists, keep track of what supplies the kids need for school etc. Whatever works for each couple -- I know of no religious reasoning on this.

OP here: Why is this question considered disrespectful by some? Islam is considered by many to be a patriarchal religion. So naturally many may assume that all important decisions are made by the DH of the family. This may be true in some Muslim families but this is not real Islam.

Anonymous wrote:You may be liberal, OP, but you certainly are not tolerant or open-minded.

OP here: I am not tolerant of ignorance that creates oppression for the vulnerable in our society. Women are sentenced to flogging, stoning, and horrendous punishments. Oftentimes it is due to misinterpretation of Islamic laws. The previous PP was very typical of the kind of Muslims that are responsible for perpetuating the ultra harsh interpretation of Islam. And I can't tolerate that and nobody should because it creates a terribly harsh unlivable environment for women. One should never, ever be open minded to harsh interpretations of any religion that condemns the vulnerable in our community unjustly.

Ignorance in today's society may be an insult. But it, in fact, means that one is unlearned, unknowing, or untrained. Muslims who are misinterpret Islam are indeed ignorant. Many, many Muslims will rarely put down their own people. But I think Muslims need to sometimes if we are to effect change!

Sorry if this is so off-putting for some of you. If I see another Muslim misinterpreting the Quran, it gets me pretty fired up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does DH go shopping with you, make the purchasing decisions and stand in line and pay for things like clothes for you and DC or food?

Wow, uncalled for. I'm not a muslim, either. It doesn't hold a candle to threads on Christianity. (Can you imagine how "I'm a Catholic, ask me anything?" would turn out?) But maybe we can all try to be respectful??

OP here: PP, totally okay. I'm okay with his or her question. It doesn't offend me.

Not the OP but also Muslim -- I don't even get the point of this question. I don't know if it there is an Islamic rule that only men/husbands can buy and pay for things for the family; if there is, I certainly never knew about it before. In some Muslim families (as with every religion I'm sure) if you necessarily waited for DH to realize that groceries or kids' clothing or whatever was needed, the kids may end up hungry and cold for a long while. In other families, the men are super organized and are the ones who keep the grocery lists, keep track of what supplies the kids need for school etc. Whatever works for each couple -- I know of no religious reasoning on this.

Anonymous wrote:On a lighter note did you all( Muslims) know that some of the pizza Bolis chains are Halal??? I was so excited to order pepperoni pizza a few weeks ago

I remember the first Pizza Bolis back in Baltimore, 20 some years ago. Haven't been since then. I'll take a look at the one around here and see if it's halal, too.

On a lighter note did you all( Muslims) know that some of the pizza Bolis chains are Halal??? I was so excited to order pepperoni pizza a few weeks ago

Wow. I am not a Muslim and was really enjoying reading this thread until the OP came along to answer the questions. Thanks to the previous posters for the calm and friendly discussion.

You may be liberal, OP, but you certainly are not tolerant or open-minded.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But in practice, don't many countries rely on the Quranic rules about consensual/nonconsensual sex, because these have scriptural authority? Whereas hadith are not always accepted as authoritative, as some PP above already mentioned.

The 4 witnesses thing, which comes from the Quran, is how it plays out in many countries today. Pakistan is an example that comes to mind.

There is a whole system for interpreting Islamic law. In Sunni Islam, it's based on the Qu'ran and the Sunnah, and these two together have been interpreted by four major schools of law. Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafi, and Malaki. Shites are similar but there is only one major madhab (school of law) I'm familiar with. Jafaari.

With respect to Hadith, there are strict standards for interpretation. Some are strong with a direct chain of narrators. Some are weak with little evidence. So you can't just quote a Hadith you find on the Internet and take it as some sort of truth about Islam.

I can't speak for all Islamic states, but ones such as Egypt have based their legal code on the predominant madhab they follow. In their case, Hanafi. Saudi Arabia follow Hanbali. Hanbali madhab is very strict.

Shiites rely much more on ijtihad, or reasoning. So maybe that's what you are referring to? Many fatwas are issued by Shiite religious leaders.

I have no knowledge of Pakistani laws, so I don't know their basis or application.

OP here: Lets not rely or care about what country is relying on for interpreting Islamic law. We know the interpretation of Islamic laws has been unduly oppressive toward women many, many times. Our holy book does not mention Hanafi, Shafi, or Malaki, Sunni, or Shi'ite. It mentions laws only. So to rely on man-made laws or man-made interpretation subjects Allah's laws to MIS-interpretation, a risk we ought never to take anyway.

You can't escape man-made interpretation because we are men (and women). Do you mean each Muslim should interpret the Qu'ran for him/herself? People by nature will interpret it to benefit themselves. That may mean you have a more liberal interpretation, but in the case of Salafis, who have also discarded accepted jurisprudence, the results are a much worse version of Islam, in my opinion.

OP here: No, we don't reject all man-made interpretations of the Quran. We reject the archaic man made interpretations. The interpretation we have is from rigid clerics who maintain a very harsh interpretation of Islam. It has been mixed with cultural, patriarchal beliefs from hundred of years past. That was never the intention of real Islam. Many American scholars do not embrace the interpretation of these rigid clerics. They also take into account the context in which passages were revealed in the Quran. Curious, where do you live now? Somewhere in the DC metro area? How on earth are you surviving here in the States embracing the rigid beliefs as you do? What kind of a job do you have? How do you function at work? What do you wear when you leave the home? Do you wear western attire? If you are female, do you ever travel to get groceries or run errands alone? Islam is not a buffet religion where you can pick and choose which rules are convenient for you to follow and which are not. But I would find it hard to believe that you are able to follow a strict interpretation of Islam living here in the States. So I am thinking that maybe you have chosen to pick and choose certain rules to follow and certain rules to abandon. Same likely goes for your spouse if you have a spouse. The strict interpretations of Islam will make it virtually impossible for you to live here in conformance to your ideal Islam....which begs the question - why are you here? Sorry to be so blunt but I often find that those who have the strictest interpretations of Islam while living here in the U.S. have made some 'accommodations' for themselves in order to make income. I doubt Allah would find it acceptable for you to shirk his laws, or rather your interpretation of laws, for the sake of pocketing more green.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does Islam impose a higher moral standard for how you treat other Muslims than for how you treat non-Muslims?

Not OP but Another Muslim poster: nope- a person is a person.

My grad school friend's roommate wouldn't shake my hand because as a non-believer I was unclean. I thought there were special tax rules and protected statuses for People of the Book vs. atheists and polytheists, too?

Was the Muslim a man or a woman? What are you? Muslims aren't supposed to shake hands of the opposite sex, but it has nothing to do with being unclean.

Muslims pay zakat.
Christians and Jews living in an Islamic state paid jizyah. Muslim rulers in India extended the tax on Hindus and Sikhs. I don't know if it exists anywhere today.

OP here: Muslims ARE allowed to shake the hands of the opposite sex. The Quran never, not once, states this is forbidden. Because the Quran states that there should be modesty between men and women, people have inferred it must mean there must be absolutely no touching at all between people of the opposite sex. This is ridiculous. It's just more ignorance that is rampant in our Muslim communities.

Can I ask what school of law you follow? Or are you a Qu'ranist? Because all four madhabs of Sunni Islam state it is impermissible for men and women to shake hands, with some very limited exceptions. If you are a Qu'ranist, that's fine. But that is a very small minority view of Islam. To call other Sunnis who follow the four major schools of law ignorant is just wrong.

OP here: You must be the Muslim that stated it is impermissible for men and women to shake hands. Are you Muslim? First of all, I honestly couldn't care less which freakin' madhab says what. The Quran takes precedence in importance and reliability over any madhab ruling and it is complete and provides the final say in all matters. The Quran does not prohibit any man or woman from shaking hands. It requires modesty and that's it. How on earth do Muslims stretch modesty to include forbidding shaking hands? For God's sake, we Muslims need to chill. This is total ignorance. Shaking hands isn't going to cause any man or woman to have sexual desires to bed that other person and if it does, that man or woman needs therapy, not extreme restrictions imposed on them.

Moreover, there are millions of Muslims that work in non Muslim countries and are reaping the benefits of working in nonMuslim countries but wearing 'western' attire and shaking hands with people of the opposite sex in order to continue reaping these benefits. If you don't like it, the best thing to do is to go back to a strict Muslim country where such strict rules are imposed and followed. But the U.S. is not the place for Muslims who believe in such things. Our culture here is just not conducive to practicing such a strict interpretation of Islam.

Here's the thing. I agree with you in a lot of ways about how Islam can and should be practiced in accordance with the prevailing culture. But I do take issue with your calling millions of Muslims ignorant when they are following their school of law. It's like telling Christians they are ignorant in following the Nicene Creed. You could be a little more respectful in your answers and still get your point across.

OP Here: The vast majority of Muslim people in Muslim countries are illiterate...therefore ignorance is widespread in such countries. Sorry if this hurts you. But you need to face the facts and the truth. It is what it is. Call it for what it is instead of trying to hide our Muslim peoples problems. It is also very irritating to see Muslims like you, ultra strict conservative Muslims, barge in on another person's thread and answer the questions the OP should be answering herself. I started this thread for a reason, to let nonMuslims know what real Islam is about based on our Quran. You came on here and started spouting off extremely strict interpretations of Islam, based not on the Quran but on man made rules. I am pretty active in our Muslim community and I can assure you that all Muslims shake the hands of people of the opposite sex when they are in the workplace. It's when they go to their respective mosques that they suddenly and magically become strict interpreters of Islam and avoid shaking each other's hands. That is total hypocrisy. If it was truly so forbidden I doubt they would shake each other's hands at work either. Show me where in the Quran it says we can't shake hands with the opposite sex. Remember the Quran is the final word. It takes precedence over all other books.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does Islam impose a higher moral standard for how you treat other Muslims than for how you treat non-Muslims?

Not OP but Another Muslim poster: nope- a person is a person.

My grad school friend's roommate wouldn't shake my hand because as a non-believer I was unclean. I thought there were special tax rules and protected statuses for People of the Book vs. atheists and polytheists, too?

Was the Muslim a man or a woman? What are you? Muslims aren't supposed to shake hands of the opposite sex, but it has nothing to do with being unclean.

Muslims pay zakat.
Christians and Jews living in an Islamic state paid jizyah. Muslim rulers in India extended the tax on Hindus and Sikhs. I don't know if it exists anywhere today.

OP here: Muslims ARE allowed to shake the hands of the opposite sex. The Quran never, not once, states this is forbidden. Because the Quran states that there should be modesty between men and women, people have inferred it must mean there must be absolutely no touching at all between people of the opposite sex. This is ridiculous. It's just more ignorance that is rampant in our Muslim communities.

Can I ask what school of law you follow? Or are you a Qu'ranist? Because all four madhabs of Sunni Islam state it is impermissible for men and women to shake hands, with some very limited exceptions. If you are a Qu'ranist, that's fine. But that is a very small minority view of Islam. To call other Sunnis who follow the four major schools of law ignorant is just wrong.

OP here: Why is it that corruption in Muslim countries is worse than in nonMuslim countries? Why is it that women are more oppressed in Muslim countries than nonMuslim countries? Why is it so unsafe for nonMuslims, and even Muslims, to travel in some Muslim countries? Why have the recent worst terrorism acts been committed by Muslims? The answer is simply because our beautiful religion has been hijacked by the masses of ignorant Muslims who belong to the four major schools of law and especially by those who are deemed with the authority to interpret the Quran. They are the ones solely responsible for why Muslims overseas think the way they think. There is no one else to blame. These schools of law were man made creations. The Sharia is a man made creation. The hadith is based on hearsay from hundreds of years ago. So should we then be extra cautious when we rely on them? Absolutely.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But in practice, don't many countries rely on the Quranic rules about consensual/nonconsensual sex, because these have scriptural authority? Whereas hadith are not always accepted as authoritative, as some PP above already mentioned.

The 4 witnesses thing, which comes from the Quran, is how it plays out in many countries today. Pakistan is an example that comes to mind.

There is a whole system for interpreting Islamic law. In Sunni Islam, it's based on the Qu'ran and the Sunnah, and these two together have been interpreted by four major schools of law. Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafi, and Malaki. Shites are similar but there is only one major madhab (school of law) I'm familiar with. Jafaari.

With respect to Hadith, there are strict standards for interpretation. Some are strong with a direct chain of narrators. Some are weak with little evidence. So you can't just quote a Hadith you find on the Internet and take it as some sort of truth about Islam.

I can't speak for all Islamic states, but ones such as Egypt have based their legal code on the predominant madhab they follow. In their case, Hanafi. Saudi Arabia follow Hanbali. Hanbali madhab is very strict.

Shiites rely much more on ijtihad, or reasoning. So maybe that's what you are referring to? Many fatwas are issued by Shiite religious leaders.

I have no knowledge of Pakistani laws, so I don't know their basis or application.

OP here: Lets not rely or care about what country is relying on for interpreting Islamic law. We know the interpretation of Islamic laws has been unduly oppressive toward women many, many times. Our holy book does not mention Hanafi, Shafi, or Malaki, Sunni, or Shi'ite. It mentions laws only. So to rely on man-made laws or man-made interpretation subjects Allah's laws to MIS-interpretation, a risk we ought never to take anyway.

You can't escape man-made interpretation because we are men (and women). Do you mean each Muslim should interpret the Qu'ran for him/herself? People by nature will interpret it to benefit themselves. That may mean you have a more liberal interpretation, but in the case of Salafis, who have also discarded accepted jurisprudence, the results are a much worse version of Islam, in my opinion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But in practice, don't many countries rely on the Quranic rules about consensual/nonconsensual sex, because these have scriptural authority? Whereas hadith are not always accepted as authoritative, as some PP above already mentioned.

The 4 witnesses thing, which comes from the Quran, is how it plays out in many countries today. Pakistan is an example that comes to mind.

There is a whole system for interpreting Islamic law. In Sunni Islam, it's based on the Qu'ran and the Sunnah, and these two together have been interpreted by four major schools of law. Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafi, and Malaki. Shites are similar but there is only one major madhab (school of law) I'm familiar with. Jafaari.

With respect to Hadith, there are strict standards for interpretation. Some are strong with a direct chain of narrators. Some are weak with little evidence. So you can't just quote a Hadith you find on the Internet and take it as some sort of truth about Islam.

I can't speak for all Islamic states, but ones such as Egypt have based their legal code on the predominant madhab they follow. In their case, Hanafi. Saudi Arabia follow Hanbali. Hanbali madhab is very strict.

Shiites rely much more on ijtihad, or reasoning. So maybe that's what you are referring to? Many fatwas are issued by Shiite religious leaders.

I have no knowledge of Pakistani laws, so I don't know their basis or application.

OP here: Lets not rely or care about what country is relying on for interpreting Islamic law. We know the interpretation of Islamic laws has been unduly oppressive toward women many, many times. Our holy book does not mention Hanafi, Shafi, or Malaki, Sunni, or Shi'ite. It mentions laws only. So to rely on man-made laws or man-made interpretation subjects Allah's laws to MIS-interpretation, a risk we ought never to take anyway.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does DH go shopping with you, make the purchasing decisions and stand in line and pay for things like clothes for you and DC or food?

Wow, uncalled for. I'm not a muslim, either. It doesn't hold a candle to threads on Christianity. (Can you imagine how "I'm a Catholic, ask me anything?" would turn out?) But maybe we can all try to be respectful??

OP here: PP, totally okay. I'm okay with his or her question. It doesn't offend me.

Anonymous wrote:Does DH go shopping with you, make the purchasing decisions and stand in line and pay for things like clothes for you and DC or food?

OP here: I have my own credit cards and also joint credit cards. I go shopping alone and sometimes with DH. DH makes purchases alone and sometimes I make purchases alone without his input.

Anonymous wrote:I have read the koran, and DD had to read it for high school. Both of us came away thinking that the koran was generous towards non-believers in some places, and frankly really intolerant - worse than intolerant -- in other places. I'm not going to get into quoting the koran because I don't want to look like one of those freaky islamophobic bloggers, also I think quoting the koran is unnecessary because I'm guessing you know what I'm referring to wrt christians, jews, polytheists, and apostates (people who leave Islam).

My question is, this can't just all be written off as "cultural" because some of it's in the koran, which is the word of God. So how do you approach these verses? Do you think some of them were directed at peoples in another time?

OP here: feel free to quote any part of the Quran and I'll try my best to interpret it for you. You are correct, not all things can be written off as "cultural."