I started teaching my kids Math at home since they were 3 years old. I did look into Kumon it was underwhelming. Other programs were expensive, time consuming, choppy in terms of pedagogy and still did not teach what I thought should be taught.

Being an immigrant and having lived in a few countries, I was exposed to different systems of education and found that USA was severely lacking.

So, once I cobbled together the resources I was able to teach according to the learning styles of my kids, and I looked for ways to make the lessons engaging and interactive.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RSM, Kumon, AoPS have some differences, but are more similar than different. Also one location of brand X might vary from another location of brand X. Visit several sites nearby and pick the specific site and brand that seems best fit for your family.

Or just get appropriate math workbooks and do it at home....

AoPS (BA) is standard wherever you go. For elementary school, I think going to a physical location is a waste of time, as the curriculum is easy for parents to implement, and there are online videos to fill in gaps. Also, AoPS (BA) uses challenging puzzles to build in repetition, which is a lot more engaging and overall beneficial than just doing worksheets or other online rote memorization drills. It's especially good for kids who never struggle in school, as it builds stamina and frustration tolerance in math, which they need when they get older.

You think it is a waste, others don’t. My son liked being in a class with other kids who liked math. It made his interest in math less strange. His friends never teased him or anything but they all thought it was a bit weird. Being in class with a group of kids who were good at math and seemed to enjoy it.

Plenty of kids find the RSM curriculum challenging and it allows for growth. The math competition class is very challenging. The national math competition program accelerates the challenge.

Anonymous wrote:RSM, Kumon, AoPS have some differences, but are more similar than different. Also one location of brand X might vary from another location of brand X. Visit several sites nearby and pick the specific site and brand that seems best fit for your family.

Or just get appropriate math workbooks and do it at home....

AoPS (BA) is standard wherever you go. For elementary school, I think going to a physical location is a waste of time, as the curriculum is easy for parents to implement, and there are online videos to fill in gaps. Also, AoPS (BA) uses challenging puzzles to build in repetition, which is a lot more engaging and overall beneficial than just doing worksheets or other online rote memorization drills. It's especially good for kids who never struggle in school, as it builds stamina and frustration tolerance in math, which they need when they get older.

Anonymous wrote:RSM, Kumon, AoPS have some differences, but are more similar than different. Also one location of brand X might vary from another location of brand X. Visit several sites nearby and pick the specific site and brand that seems best fit for your family.

Or just get appropriate math workbooks and do it at home....

RSM and AoPS are totally different then Kumon. Kumon is worksheets and lots of repetition. RSM has leveled classes that teach concepts to students. There is practice in class and homework but it is not rote repetition. AoPS and RSM are similar when you get to the Honors RSM class and the Math compettion class, which are similar to AoPS classes.

RSM and AoPS are much more classroom structured and push and stretch students. Kumon is repetition and more repetition.

I don't know about RSM, but Kumon and AOPS are very different.

RSM, Kumon, AoPS have some differences, but are more similar than different. Also one location of brand X might vary from another location of brand X. Visit several sites nearby and pick the specific site and brand that seems best fit for your family.

Or just get appropriate math workbooks and do it at home....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I send my kids to KUMON. PP said it is “redundant” because it just teaches stuff from school. That is true in a way— the curriculum is very similar. However, the homework repetition is totally different. School homework has ten problems and KUMON homework has 50-100 (nightly!). I don’t think kids can memorize math facts with the homework provided from school. With more advanced skills (let’s say three digit vertical subtraction for elementary school), the KUMON homework has scaffolding that just isn’t present in the school homework because there just aren’t enough problems to see mastery of different sub skills (I.e. 493-72 is using less advanced skills than 441-72, which is easier than 401-72)

100 problems a night or per Kumon session (which I'm guessing would be once or twice a week)? Because 500 problems a week on top of 50 problems a week for school sounds like overkill.

At the current level (basic multiplication), it is about 100 problems but this is supposed to take 10 minutes. (KUMON measures things by pages. Each page is supposed to take 2 minutes if the kid really knows it. The number of problems on the page varies but is usually 20 right now. The number of pages assigned can vary but right now my kid gets 5 pages.)

Anonymous wrote:I send my kids to KUMON. PP said it is “redundant” because it just teaches stuff from school. That is true in a way— the curriculum is very similar. However, the homework repetition is totally different. School homework has ten problems and KUMON homework has 50-100 (nightly!). I don’t think kids can memorize math facts with the homework provided from school. With more advanced skills (let’s say three digit vertical subtraction for elementary school), the KUMON homework has scaffolding that just isn’t present in the school homework because there just aren’t enough problems to see mastery of different sub skills (I.e. 493-72 is using less advanced skills than 441-72, which is easier than 401-72)

100 problems a night or per Kumon session (which I'm guessing would be once or twice a week)? Because 500 problems a week on top of 50 problems a week for school sounds like overkill.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, those comparisons are based on scores from kids who have moved into tracked education. The kids in China, Singapore, Japan, South Korea and the like who do not score high enough in 6th grade to move into college prep MS are not included in those scores. And plenty of kids in those countries do not move into the college prep MS and HSs. They track into votech programs.

The US scores include all the students.

Yes, math scores could improve in the US but the top 10/top 20 countries are not as far ahead as you think that they are. We keep making a false comparison.

Look at Canada specifically. Why are they up there with the Asian schools you mentioned. They are similar to the US but have consistently scored higher than American students.

I watched an interesting video of a man interviewing young women in London who were from all different countries. Just lighthearted cute stuff. One thing he did was ask some of them to quickly identify different countries flags. 20 flags in 30 seconds. Obscure flags like Bahrain, Luxembourg, Tonga. One girl killed it, she got every flag. After she finished she added “I’m Canadian, not American.” That was no surprise to any American watching.

The demographics of Canada are different from US, as are those of the European countries. There are HUGE achievement disparities in U.S. between white/asian students and those of black/hispanic students. While these have been narrowing compared with 30 yrs ago, black/hispanic population have been growing at a faster rate as well. There are many reasons for this: socioeconomics, language barriers, cultural differences in how education is valued and encouraged that is passed down through generations, generational trauma.

The demographics are not hugely different. What you’re trying to say is the black and Latino populations bring our scores down.

These are statements from Pisa test result 2022 ..

1. State-level analysis indicates that states like Massachusetts, Minnesota, and New Jersey often perform significantly higher, with some matching international leaders, while other states fall below the national average.

These aren’t white states.

2. High Performers: Historically, states such as Massachusetts, Minnesota, and New Jersey, along with Connecticut and Vermont, have shown higher proficiency rates compared to the rest of the U.S.

3. Math Proficiency: In addition to NJ and MA, states like North Dakota and Vermont often show high math proficiency rates

These results show A mix of predominantly white states like Vermont and North Dakota and states with their share of minorities and immigrants.

If your excuses were valid West Virginia would have high scores because they have always been over 90% white but their testing is dismal. The fact is only a small portion of states can compete against the top countries. The other states bring them down, not minorities.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, those comparisons are based on scores from kids who have moved into tracked education. The kids in China, Singapore, Japan, South Korea and the like who do not score high enough in 6th grade to move into college prep MS are not included in those scores. And plenty of kids in those countries do not move into the college prep MS and HSs. They track into votech programs.

The US scores include all the students.

Yes, math scores could improve in the US but the top 10/top 20 countries are not as far ahead as you think that they are. We keep making a false comparison.

Look at Canada specifically. Why are they up there with the Asian schools you mentioned. They are similar to the US but have consistently scored higher than American students.

I watched an interesting video of a man interviewing young women in London who were from all different countries. Just lighthearted cute stuff. One thing he did was ask some of them to quickly identify different countries flags. 20 flags in 30 seconds. Obscure flags like Bahrain, Luxembourg, Tonga. One girl killed it, she got every flag. After she finished she added “I’m Canadian, not American.” That was no surprise to any American watching.

The demographics of Canada are different from US, as are those of the European countries. There are HUGE achievement disparities in U.S. between white/asian students and those of black/hispanic students. While these have been narrowing compared with 30 yrs ago, black/hispanic population have been growing at a faster rate as well. There are many reasons for this: socioeconomics, language barriers, cultural differences in how education is valued and encouraged that is passed down through generations, generational trauma.

If one dives into the details behind PISA results, even white/Asian students are behind other countries - on average.

So the above does not fully explain the poor US showing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, those comparisons are based on scores from kids who have moved into tracked education. The kids in China, Singapore, Japan, South Korea and the like who do not score high enough in 6th grade to move into college prep MS are not included in those scores. And plenty of kids in those countries do not move into the college prep MS and HSs. They track into votech programs.

The US scores include all the students.

Yes, math scores could improve in the US but the top 10/top 20 countries are not as far ahead as you think that they are. We keep making a false comparison.

Look at Canada specifically. Why are they up there with the Asian schools you mentioned. They are similar to the US but have consistently scored higher than American students.

I watched an interesting video of a man interviewing young women in London who were from all different countries. Just lighthearted cute stuff. One thing he did was ask some of them to quickly identify different countries flags. 20 flags in 30 seconds. Obscure flags like Bahrain, Luxembourg, Tonga. One girl killed it, she got every flag. After she finished she added “I’m Canadian, not American.” That was no surprise to any American watching.

The demographics of Canada are different from US, as are those of the European countries. There are HUGE achievement disparities in U.S. between white/asian students and those of black/hispanic students. While these have been narrowing compared with 30 yrs ago, black/hispanic population have been growing at a faster rate as well. There are many reasons for this: socioeconomics, language barriers, cultural differences in how education is valued and encouraged that is passed down through generations, generational trauma.

The thread has veered slightly OT. In many US schools, geography is not taught as an explicit subject.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, those comparisons are based on scores from kids who have moved into tracked education. The kids in China, Singapore, Japan, South Korea and the like who do not score high enough in 6th grade to move into college prep MS are not included in those scores. And plenty of kids in those countries do not move into the college prep MS and HSs. They track into votech programs.

The US scores include all the students.

Yes, math scores could improve in the US but the top 10/top 20 countries are not as far ahead as you think that they are. We keep making a false comparison.

Look at Canada specifically. Why are they up there with the Asian schools you mentioned. They are similar to the US but have consistently scored higher than American students.

I watched an interesting video of a man interviewing young women in London who were from all different countries. Just lighthearted cute stuff. One thing he did was ask some of them to quickly identify different countries flags. 20 flags in 30 seconds. Obscure flags like Bahrain, Luxembourg, Tonga. One girl killed it, she got every flag. After she finished she added “I’m Canadian, not American.” That was no surprise to any American watching.

Ok but let's be realistic. Every once in a while, you find a person with an obscure interest and they can answer every question perfectly. I've been that person before in other domains.

I had a flag toy as a child with about 50 pop-up flags to identify. I used to know them cold. But I have no idea what the 3 flags mentioned look like. I'd still probably do pretty well on a global flag test.

It must help to be from a country that has many nearby contiguous countries. How many Europeans are going to know the "Keystone State" from the "Show Me State"? Americans might because of license plates.

I just mentioned the Canadian one because she wanted to make sure no one thought she was American. The European females knew all the flags too including South America countries.

My kids could take an empty US map and fill in the states and capitals without a list in elementary school with half the kids. Flags were taught too. The point is American students do poorly in geography, math and language. Students from Eastern Europe speak 2 or 3 languages fluently. Northern Europeans speak 2 languages, their own and English.

Knowing how to locate a country on a map and know each country’s flag and capital is not obscure. It’s standard education in other developed countries.

Anonymous wrote:I send my kids to KUMON. PP said it is “redundant” because it just teaches stuff from school. That is true in a way— the curriculum is very similar. However, the homework repetition is totally different. School homework has ten problems and KUMON homework has 50-100 (nightly!). I don’t think kids can memorize math facts with the homework provided from school. With more advanced skills (let’s say three digit vertical subtraction for elementary school), the KUMON homework has scaffolding that just isn’t present in the school homework because there just aren’t enough problems to see mastery of different sub skills (I.e. 493-72 is using less advanced skills than 441-72, which is easier than 401-72)

My kid does RSM, but I agree. Repetition helps internalization. I was good at math without the repetition. My child who spends more time doing both, school type math and competition math, is leagues stronger in math than I was. He may get the sane grades I did, but his approach to math is not the same. There's value in repetition.