Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the problem with not understanding competitive gym is that people think the tax payers are paying for the program. The families of those in the competitive teams, boys and girls, pay for the program outside of regular DPR fees. If DPR needs to charge them more, they are more than willing to pay.

The program is heavily subsidized by the county. And you can’t ignore that where DPS charges fees, it also has generous programs for reducing or forgiving them.

A best case for the future is an independent organization takes over and rents space *at cost* from the county. That includes hiring their own coaches, procuring their own insurance, dealing with their own scholarships, and coming to some sort of agreement with the county on equipment maintenance for equipment that is not suitable or appropriate for rec use. Like every other sports program in this county.

This. If the families in the program are actually willing to pay whatever it takes to keep the program going, why does the county need to be involved at all? Take on the costs of equipment, insurance, and coaching then. I suspect if actually faced with those costs, the families would quickly realize it's not sustainable or worth it, just like the county did.

The county is involved no matter what because there is a very large rec center nearly entirely (but not entirely...we know) devoted to gymnastics. Which could be used for broader purposes and serve more people.

The county is going to sell or repurpose the facility, I thought that was the whole point of closing the program.

Yes I see you're suggesting the gymnastics go find their own space.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the problem with not understanding competitive gym is that people think the tax payers are paying for the program. The families of those in the competitive teams, boys and girls, pay for the program outside of regular DPR fees. If DPR needs to charge them more, they are more than willing to pay.

The program is heavily subsidized by the county. And you can’t ignore that where DPS charges fees, it also has generous programs for reducing or forgiving them.

A best case for the future is an independent organization takes over and rents space *at cost* from the county. That includes hiring their own coaches, procuring their own insurance, dealing with their own scholarships, and coming to some sort of agreement with the county on equipment maintenance for equipment that is not suitable or appropriate for rec use. Like every other sports program in this county.

This. If the families in the program are actually willing to pay whatever it takes to keep the program going, why does the county need to be involved at all? Take on the costs of equipment, insurance, and coaching then. I suspect if actually faced with those costs, the families would quickly realize it's not sustainable or worth it, just like the county did.

The county is involved no matter what because there is a very large rec center nearly entirely (but not entirely...we know) devoted to gymnastics. Which could be used for broader purposes and serve more people.

The county is going to sell or repurpose the facility, I thought that was the whole point of closing the program.

Anonymous wrote:Most of the residents who benefit from the Barcroft facility AREN'T competitive gymnasts. Yes, the Aerials and the Tigers will be devastated at the loss of the facility, but the impact to the greater community is even larger. Most partipants are children who are interested in rec gymnastics, no different than the rec bball or rec swimming. Learning gymnastics at a young age is wonderful for building strength, developing balance and coordination, promoting fitness, teaching discipline and mental toughness and boosting confidence. Most participants eventually move on to other sports, but the foundation formed in gymnastics can help them throughout life. Stop treating it like it's some boogeyman. You don't need to be a college level gymnast to teach rec classes. Please get real. Let's also not forget that it is one of the only adaptive gymnastics programs out there and those families won't have other places to turn.

A genuine rec-level gymanstics offerings could be run much differently and more cheaply than what the County is currently doing.

Anonymous wrote:Most of the residents who benefit from the Barcroft facility AREN'T competitive gymnasts. Yes, the Aerials and the Tigers will be devastated at the loss of the facility, but the impact to the greater community is even larger. Most partipants are children who are interested in rec gymnastics, no different than the rec bball or rec swimming. Learning gymnastics at a young age is wonderful for building strength, developing balance and coordination, promoting fitness, teaching discipline and mental toughness and boosting confidence. Most participants eventually move on to other sports, but the foundation formed in gymnastics can help them throughout life. Stop treating it like it's some boogeyman. You don't need to be a college level gymnast to teach rec classes. Please get real. Let's also not forget that it is one of the only adaptive gymnastics programs out there and those families won't have other places to turn.

But then they could do that without the a full-fledged competitive gymnastics facility.

You could build a truly recreational gymnastics program that focused on tumbling, flexibility, strength, and body awareness. No vault, no bars except maybe a low bar for learning things like hip circles and doing pull ups and kip ups, no high beam, no rings, no pommel. Instead, you focus on fundamental skills and progressions. Cartwheels, walk-overs, rolls and building up to hand springs and back tucks for more advanced students.

Facility could have bonded foam flexi-rolls instead of a spring floor, some deeper foam mats for the slightly bigger tumbling tricks, a trampoline, low beams, a low bar. Less expensive, easier to break down and store when not in use, could be more easily moved to different facilities as needed, and lower liability costs since you wouldn't be doing riskier skills on equipment like this.

The program should emphasize exactly what you are talking about -- foundational gymnastics that help with body awareness, flexibility and mobility, balance and coordination, love of sports and physical movement. The program should also be targeted to all ages with programming specifically designed for adult beginners, and people with mobility or joint issues.

If the goal is fitness and not competitive gymnastics, then you don't need a vault, a foam pit, a springboard floor, a full suite of unevent/high/parallel bars, etc. All of which take up a ton of space, require a lot of maintenance, and are primarily used by more advanced gymnasts in a narrow age rage. People who want those things can seek out a private gym for it. If there is truly demand in Arlington County for it, and it's actually a sustainable model with insurance and staffing costs, then private options will become available. It does not make sense for the county to subsidize the competitive gymnastics portion of the program which serves so few kids when they could instead build a truly recreational program geared at fitness for all ages.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the problem with not understanding competitive gym is that people think the tax payers are paying for the program. The families of those in the competitive teams, boys and girls, pay for the program outside of regular DPR fees. If DPR needs to charge them more, they are more than willing to pay.

The program is heavily subsidized by the county. And you can’t ignore that where DPS charges fees, it also has generous programs for reducing or forgiving them.

A best case for the future is an independent organization takes over and rents space *at cost* from the county. That includes hiring their own coaches, procuring their own insurance, dealing with their own scholarships, and coming to some sort of agreement with the county on equipment maintenance for equipment that is not suitable or appropriate for rec use. Like every other sports program in this county.

This. If the families in the program are actually willing to pay whatever it takes to keep the program going, why does the county need to be involved at all? Take on the costs of equipment, insurance, and coaching then. I suspect if actually faced with those costs, the families would quickly realize it's not sustainable or worth it, just like the county did.

The county is involved no matter what because there is a very large rec center nearly entirely (but not entirely...we know) devoted to gymnastics. Which could be used for broader purposes and serve more people.

Except that's not an accurate reflection. The team members pay fees and raise money to fund the team, and would be open to a fee increase. It's entirely possible the a big part of the issue here is that DPR isn't doing their jobs and is under utilizing the facility. The fee recovery issue could very well be largely on the rec side of the county is offering fewer classes than it used to. Absolutely no information has been provided.

The county board member shared last night that the swim program also does not recover its fees.

It’s harder to fund the competitive side and in most private programs rec is what really drives profits. So could definitely be a factor. At some point there are just diminishing margins on the competitive side due to coaching costs.

I’d love to see the numbers from before the expansion and when gymnastics was directed by internal staff as well.


As I said the tuition numbers are definitely in line with what I’m used to seeing but if anyone has info on what else team is currently paying on top of that, that could be helpful in analyzing. Most teams have a 1-2K assessment per team member per season.

The “other operational needs” is also relevant. They may be looking at another opportunity cost of the space. The adult ball hockey league was probably profitable, if I had to guess.

Most of the residents who benefit from the Barcroft facility AREN'T competitive gymnasts. Yes, the Aerials and the Tigers will be devastated at the loss of the facility, but the impact to the greater community is even larger. Most partipants are children who are interested in rec gymnastics, no different than the rec bball or rec swimming. Learning gymnastics at a young age is wonderful for building strength, developing balance and coordination, promoting fitness, teaching discipline and mental toughness and boosting confidence. Most participants eventually move on to other sports, but the foundation formed in gymnastics can help them throughout life. Stop treating it like it's some boogeyman. You don't need to be a college level gymnast to teach rec classes. Please get real. Let's also not forget that it is one of the only adaptive gymnastics programs out there and those families won't have other places to turn.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the problem with not understanding competitive gym is that people think the tax payers are paying for the program. The families of those in the competitive teams, boys and girls, pay for the program outside of regular DPR fees. If DPR needs to charge them more, they are more than willing to pay.

The program is heavily subsidized by the county. And you can’t ignore that where DPS charges fees, it also has generous programs for reducing or forgiving them.

A best case for the future is an independent organization takes over and rents space *at cost* from the county. That includes hiring their own coaches, procuring their own insurance, dealing with their own scholarships, and coming to some sort of agreement with the county on equipment maintenance for equipment that is not suitable or appropriate for rec use. Like every other sports program in this county.

This. If the families in the program are actually willing to pay whatever it takes to keep the program going, why does the county need to be involved at all? Take on the costs of equipment, insurance, and coaching then. I suspect if actually faced with those costs, the families would quickly realize it's not sustainable or worth it, just like the county did.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A full fledged gymnastics program doesn't make sense.

You can provide tumbling and dance classes with far less equipment and much lower insurance costs, and that will be enough for like 95% of kids to get the exposure they need to a sport they might enjoy. The die hards can go pay for private instruction on all the apparatus (with the added risks of injury and the much higher facility costs due to the equipment and insurance requirements). There's no reason for a full scale gymnastics facility.

Focusing on sports with minimal equipment needs also makes it easier for the county to invest in coaching, clean and updated facilities, and fitness offerings that have broader social benefits. Gymnastics-obsessed kids are not some underserved demographic here.

The county can't build the boondoggle that is Long Bridge and then say it won't invest in youth sports that require specialized facilities. Besides, this program is already running and has been for nearly 50 years. The equipment is there. The building is there. Many kids are heavily invested in the program. And yes, gymnastics is underserved in Arlington. It's super hard to get into classes, with long waitlists, and there are not adequate local facilities. Just because it's not the sport your kid has chosen doesn't make it deserving of being killed. The county needs to engage on options.

Comparing Barcroft and the gymnastics program to Long Bridge and the aquatics program is a huge mistake if you want to defend the gymnastics programs. Also telling that you call it "youth sports that require specialized facilities." Because that describes gymnastics for sure, but does not describe swimming.

Long Bridge (and any swimming facility) provides things that Bancroft and a gymnastics program cannot. For starters, swimming is a life skill that saves lives. County swim programs teach basic water safety skills to people of all ages at low cost. Learning those skills prevents water deaths, not just in county swimming pools but anywhere. That's essential. Long Bridge and other swim facilities also offer ALL AGES fitness and swim classes, including a huge suite of classes for people who are 55+. Swimming is fantastic for older bodies because of how gentle it is on joints. Long Bridge offers classes for people with arthritis, deep water exercise classes which are really helpful for people with joint issues who are otherwise limited, and a host of other classes for people of ever age group. This is in addition to the youth swimming program. They also have yoga and fitness classes on site, which again are offered for all ages. The vast majority of Long Bridge's programming is geared toward all ages health, fitness, and safety, NOT competitive sport. The competitive swimming program is actually a very small part of the facilities overall usage.

That's what a county parks and rec program is for -- supporting the health and fitness of all county residents. Not training a small group of kids into a competitive sport. I know a lot of parents can't see that, but the people who run the county programs do.

Gymnastics is not an essential life skill. It is not particularly accessible for people outside the 5-17 age group, and it poses injury risks that most other county sports do not. It requires specialized equipment that can't be used in a variety of ways by a variety of people, the way a swimming pool or a general purpose gym or field can. That equipment has to be specially maintained. Gymnastics instruction also requires a specialized background. Unless you grew up doing it, it's unlikely you will ever be qualified to coach it. Whereas it's actually possible to become an aquatics fitness instructor, or a yoga instructor, within a few years of dedicated study, as an adult.

Gymnastics is niche. It's expensive. It lacks broad appeal across age groups. It's more dangerous than many sports and lacks a lot of the broad benefits like joint health. It really does not make sense for the county to be dedicating so much money, space, and staff to a program like that. There are much better ways to spend that money.

Anonymous wrote:Part of the problem with not understanding competitive gym is that people think the tax payers are paying for the program. The families of those in the competitive teams, boys and girls, pay for the program outside of regular DPR fees. If DPR needs to charge them more, they are more than willing to pay.

The program is heavily subsidized by the county. And you can’t ignore that where DPS charges fees, it also has generous programs for reducing or forgiving them.

A best case for the future is an independent organization takes over and rents space *at cost* from the county. That includes hiring their own coaches, procuring their own insurance, dealing with their own scholarships, and coming to some sort of agreement with the county on equipment maintenance for equipment that is not suitable or appropriate for rec use. Like every other sports program in this county.

Part of the problem with not understanding competitive gym is that people think the tax payers are paying for the program. The families of those in the competitive teams, boys and girls, pay for the program outside of regular DPR fees. If DPR needs to charge them more, they are more than willing to pay.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people aren’t really familiar with the ins and outs of competitive gymnastics, not unlike our county manager. Watching from the mezzanine doesn’t make one an expert.

Does one need to be an expert in competitive gymnastics to have an opinion as to whether county taxpayers should be funding a team and training program?

Except that's not an accurate reflection. The team members pay fees and raise money to fund the team, and would be open to a fee increase. It's entirely possible the a big part of the issue here is that DPR isn't doing their jobs and is under utilizing the facility. The fee recovery issue could very well be largely on the rec side of the county is offering fewer classes than it used to. Absolutely no information has been provided.

The county board member shared last night that the swim program also does not recover its fees.

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people aren’t really familiar with the ins and outs of competitive gymnastics, not unlike our county manager. Watching from the mezzanine doesn’t make one an expert.

Does one need to be an expert in competitive gymnastics to have an opinion as to whether county taxpayers should be funding a team and training program?

A lot of people aren’t really familiar with the ins and outs of competitive gymnastics, not unlike our county manager. Watching from the mezzanine doesn’t make one an expert.

Rec can get by with low beams, stacked mats for vault and they don’t need the pit for bat dismount training