I watched the CNN show about JFK Jr. They downplayed it and had friends saying nice things about him, but reading between the lines, George was ill-conceived and magazine publishers knew it and didn't want it. They got taken by Hachette-Fillapacci because they wanted to capitalize on his visage and name. I'm sure the expectation was that Conde Nast would rake it..He had a falling out with his partner who sounded like the one with some smarts and soon after, HF was about to pull the plug. It was not an interesting magazine. Vanity Fair had been covering politics and celebrity successfully for years and that was the closest thing to it. George was not unique enough: not glossy enough like VF and did not have quality political journalism like say, The Atlantic or New Republic.

I think for many people of his generation (and mine), running a cool magazine seemed like the coolest job at the time. There were some great ones in that era. I think he was not interested in it beyond "wouldn't that be cool to do?" He came off in the doc like a lightweight who had no real passion for it and didn't understand what to do with it. He was no Tina Brown or Graydon Carter, in other words. And if he had been, the magazine would have been picked up by Conde Nast--the publicity if it were good would have sold many copies. They were the power nexus of magazine publishing at that time and spent a ton of money of writers, photographers and editors. He was not taken seriously and that's because he was a dilletante with little more than a cool idea. Lots of people have those.

I am watching the ABC show about them tonight, with archival photos. Carolyn was actually stunning in college. I am not sure John would have been considered gorgeous, if he was Joe Schmoe. His hair looks bushy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain why pilots are allowed to fly at night if they aren't instrument certified, or whatever the right term is. If you're flying over the ocean or in bad weather, how can you rely on visual cues at night? Are accidents like this rare?

Private flying us MUCH less safe than commercial, largely because pilot behavior and plane maintenance are based almost on an honor system (ie, there is much less regulation/oversight).

Yep, other more experienced private pilots that night chose not to fly and waited until morning because of bad conditions. The system relies on people being able to make these types of decisions.

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain why pilots are allowed to fly at night if they aren't instrument certified, or whatever the right term is. If you're flying over the ocean or in bad weather, how can you rely on visual cues at night? Are accidents like this rare?

Private flying us MUCH less safe than commercial, largely because pilot behavior and plane maintenance are based almost on an honor system (ie, there is much less regulation/oversight).

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t think anyone who was an adult at the time thinks it was a great love story. It’s just Hollywood trying to make money off two beautiful people who died tragically young.

To me it’s like the Wuthering Heights grays now. There were elements that you can pick up on (their obsession with each other) that make it seem like a tragic love story, though the novel was always clearly not.

I think it’s just because they died young and people can’t romanticize things. PS yes I think if they had continued, they would’ve had a really rough time and probably not staying together.

I recently read Brooke shields memoir and she described a date with JFK Jr. that sounds horrible. She was not very nice about it. He wasn’t aggressive or anything, but I think she either felt like she had to sleep with him or something and she acted like he was no great lover.

I do think people are being too hard on his intelligence. I actually thought George was way ahead of its time. I don’t think he was dumb, I just think he was average, but because of his looks and his pedigree, we expected the world from him.

She said he was cold and dismissive once she refused to sleep with him. Despite the public charm, this was a very spoiled guy who was used to getting his way, and who cheated on every girlfriend, bragging about his conquests to his bros. And eventually cheated on Carolyn as well. People give him far too much credit.

A lot of famous men are like this.

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Anonymous wrote:I know nothing about Carolyn Bessette Kennedy, but I never liked that in photos of the couple, she always sort of stood a little behind JFK Jr and looked doen almost demurely (Meghan Markle used the same stance in the early years of her relationship with Harry). It always seemed fake/posed and like she didn’t view herself an equal.

It was well-known that she hated being photographed. There was a video of her with JFK Jr being hounded by photographers in a parking garage and she just completely shut down. She found the attention so unbearable that she didn't even want to live in NYC after they were married.

I don't get why being photographed is such a big deal. Put on sunglasses and headphones and just walk quickly by.

It is a horrible life.

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t get the romanticizing of this couple all these years later. Yes, he was a Kennedy and they were both good looking people and it’s sad they died young (along with Lauren Bessette) but isn’t it pretty well established that their marriage was rocky at best? She was a rampant cheater (maybe he was too) and a druggie… not seeing this as some epic love story.

I agree, there is nothing noteworthy about them as individuals or as a couple. They were not interesting at all and their lives were frivolous.

They were good looking and stylish, died tragically and young and he was the son of a president. People felt they knew JFK Jr and then could wonder, what if? about him. But in reality, I think they would have divorced and he would have had a series of failures in his endeavors, not amounting to much. But at the same time also protected by the Kennedy myth. He embodied it more than anyone in his generation. (I don't believe in the Kennedy myth myself.) I think the interest comes from their looks and the fact that they died tragically. He would be about 65 now if he had lived.

I think their marriage was on the edge but might have endured, if they followed up on moving out of the city where she could have more privacy and have kids. George was going under, so hard to know what his next professional endeavor would have been. Some white shoe law firm or other, probably. Don't think he was smart enough to make it in politics, and Carolyn couldn't handle yet more scrutiny. I agree that they were unlikely to accomplish much beyond being attractive, stylish, and rich.

What about 2026 makes you think politicians need to be smart?

(They need to be telegenic and malleable)

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Anonymous wrote:It was not a love story.

Can you elaborate on this?

NP. They fought a lot and his hubris resulted in her death and sibling's death.

Srsly. Her poor parents lost two daughters in a plane crash that should never have happened. He had no business flying a tiny plane in bad weather.

No one tells a Kennedy "no"

Carolyn and Lauren should have refused to get on that plane. So sad.

As non pilots, they could but have understood the dangers.

She probably trusted her husband (and was but the first woman brought down by doing so).

It's ironic that his family were snobs about "educational pedigree" because from all accounts, she actually seemed to be sharper and harder-working than him. She just didn't have the Kennedy name to get her into an Ivy.

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Anonymous wrote:Did Carolyn have any female friends who were not John's friends? You never hear anything about them. I've only heard of one gay male friend, when she first started dating John.

I don't think you would commonly hear of non-famous friends, especially in the days before social media. She was very close to Carole Radziwill, who was married to Anthony, John's terminally ill cousin. John and Carolyn would have helped Carole in the aftermath of Anthony's death, and instead Carole and Anthony attended their memorial service weeks before he died. That always stuck with me- how John ended up dying before his cousin.

Carole's book, What Remains, is really good if you have not read it. It's respectful and very loving. She presents Carolyn as a warm and caring person who consistently showed up for Anthony when he was sick.

I think Carolyn was a complicated person, and certainly flawed, but there are lots of stories about her warmth and kindness too.

I agree. All these outlandish stories about her don't seem to be from her inner circle. I don't know what to make of that CK model who claims they had an affair. He honestly seems unhinged. The truth is probably that she wasn't perfect but she wasn't this caricature that the darker anecdotes suggest. I'm sure many things were exaggerated.

No, I think the CK model story is true. He really loved her, and apparently his dates check out.

I think George was an ambitious project that had very poor timing with a young marriage, and a bride who needed more care and support during that hard tradition. They might have been okay if hadn't been consumed with work at that time. Apparently she often felt like an afterthought, which is why she turned to a former fling for comfort. Not the best behavior, but John (the habitual cheater) was hardly perfect.

As bad as it sounds, I think that if the tragic crash had not happened, he likely would have been divorced within a couple years and George would have folded during that time as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did Carolyn have any female friends who were not John's friends? You never hear anything about them. I've only heard of one gay male friend, when she first started dating John.

I don't think you would commonly hear of non-famous friends, especially in the days before social media. She was very close to Carole Radziwill, who was married to Anthony, John's terminally ill cousin. John and Carolyn would have helped Carole in the aftermath of Anthony's death, and instead Carole and Anthony attended their memorial service weeks before he died. That always stuck with me- how John ended up dying before his cousin.

Carole's book, What Remains, is really good if you have not read it. It's respectful and very loving. She presents Carolyn as a warm and caring person who consistently showed up for Anthony when he was sick.

I think Carolyn was a complicated person, and certainly flawed, but there are lots of stories about her warmth and kindness too.

I agree. All these outlandish stories about her don't seem to be from her inner circle. I don't know what to make of that CK model who claims they had an affair. He honestly seems unhinged. The truth is probably that she wasn't perfect but she wasn't this caricature that the darker anecdotes suggest. I'm sure many things were exaggerated.

She seems relatively normal to me and well liked from interviews of people who worked with her at Calvin Klein (including Klein and Rodriquez), went to college with her, and Carole. Who is perfect? Everyone is multidimensional.Personally, I would never be able to marry someone famous like Kennedy and all that baggage, the press, the intense family expectations, all of it. I would hate it. I suspect she came to hate it too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did Carolyn have any female friends who were not John's friends? You never hear anything about them. I've only heard of one gay male friend, when she first started dating John.

I don't think you would commonly hear of non-famous friends, especially in the days before social media. She was very close to Carole Radziwill, who was married to Anthony, John's terminally ill cousin. John and Carolyn would have helped Carole in the aftermath of Anthony's death, and instead Carole and Anthony attended their memorial service weeks before he died. That always stuck with me- how John ended up dying before his cousin.

Carole's book, What Remains, is really good if you have not read it. It's respectful and very loving. She presents Carolyn as a warm and caring person who consistently showed up for Anthony when he was sick.

I think Carolyn was a complicated person, and certainly flawed, but there are lots of stories about her warmth and kindness too.

I agree. All these outlandish stories about her don't seem to be from her inner circle. I don't know what to make of that CK model who claims they had an affair. He honestly seems unhinged. The truth is probably that she wasn't perfect but she wasn't this caricature that the darker anecdotes suggest. I'm sure many things were exaggerated.

No, I think the CK model story is true. He really loved her, and apparently his dates check out.

I think George was an ambitious project that had very poor timing with a young marriage, and a bride who needed more care and support during that hard tradition. They might have been okay if hadn't been consumed with work at that time. Apparently she often felt like an afterthought, which is why she turned to a former fling for comfort. Not the best behavior, but John (the habitual cheater) was hardly perfect.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did Carolyn have any female friends who were not John's friends? You never hear anything about them. I've only heard of one gay male friend, when she first started dating John.

I don't think you would commonly hear of non-famous friends, especially in the days before social media. She was very close to Carole Radziwill, who was married to Anthony, John's terminally ill cousin. John and Carolyn would have helped Carole in the aftermath of Anthony's death, and instead Carole and Anthony attended their memorial service weeks before he died. That always stuck with me- how John ended up dying before his cousin.

Carole's book, What Remains, is really good if you have not read it. It's respectful and very loving. She presents Carolyn as a warm and caring person who consistently showed up for Anthony when he was sick.

I think Carolyn was a complicated person, and certainly flawed, but there are lots of stories about her warmth and kindness too.

I agree. All these outlandish stories about her don't seem to be from her inner circle. I don't know what to make of that CK model who claims they had an affair. He honestly seems unhinged. The truth is probably that she wasn't perfect but she wasn't this caricature that the darker anecdotes suggest. I'm sure many things were exaggerated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did Carolyn have any female friends who were not John's friends? You never hear anything about them. I've only heard of one gay male friend, when she first started dating John.

I don't think you would commonly hear of non-famous friends, especially in the days before social media. She was very close to Carole Radziwill, who was married to Anthony, John's terminally ill cousin. John and Carolyn would have helped Carole in the aftermath of Anthony's death, and instead Carole and Anthony attended their memorial service weeks before he died. That always stuck with me- how John ended up dying before his cousin.

Carole's book, What Remains, is really good if you have not read it. It's respectful and very loving. She presents Carolyn as a warm and caring person who consistently showed up for Anthony when he was sick.

I haven't read it, but now I will. Thanks for the rec.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did Carolyn have any female friends who were not John's friends? You never hear anything about them. I've only heard of one gay male friend, when she first started dating John.

I don't think you would commonly hear of non-famous friends, especially in the days before social media. She was very close to Carole Radziwill, who was married to Anthony, John's terminally ill cousin. John and Carolyn would have helped Carole in the aftermath of Anthony's death, and instead Carole and Anthony attended their memorial service weeks before he died. That always stuck with me- how John ended up dying before his cousin.

Carole's book, What Remains, is really good if you have not read it. It's respectful and very loving. She presents Carolyn as a warm and caring person who consistently showed up for Anthony when he was sick.

I think Carolyn was a complicated person, and certainly flawed, but there are lots of stories about her warmth and kindness too.