Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don't have a partner in your husband and it is breaking you, divorce. Seriously.

It's a really good vibe check. Are you willing to do this alone? If so, ditch the not-partner and do it alone. Otherwise, figure out what's so upsetting about it and shift your attitude. Maybe you need to cut back, or maybe you're tired and overreacting. Or maybe you need to ask for help you haven't articulated needing, instead of assuming your partner knows. Do what you can to adjust your circumstances, then adjust your perception and attitude about them.

Surely you recognize that getting a divorce isn't as simple as deciding you are willing to do everything alone or you're not. Trying to manage your own feelings while simultaneously determining what's in the best interests of your children is where it is tough.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: +1

I make almost 3 times what my husband does, and I know a number of other women in a similar position. We are all the default parents and carry the majority of the mental load.

If these women are amenable to outsourcing gift wrapping and tree decorating and Christmas dinner preparing, they should.

I outsource what I don't want on my mental load. People resist this because they want to wrap gifts. Not everyone does. But it is not uncommon.

Or because they think about that money going toward retirement accounts or college funds.

OR because they're unwilling to drop the nonessentials to preserve their sanity and resources. Gift wrapping, tree decorating, Christmas dinner preparing... nothing stated in this thread is a need.

Then what is a need? If you don’t need these things you also could live without a sofa, never go on vacation and eat McDonald’s every night instead of a normal meal.

You sound like a man who takes advantage of female labor and your only defense is to claim it’s all unnecessary make work. As if kids don’t expect presents from Santa.

TIL I'm finally a man!

I am, interestingly enough, a person who has gone without a sofa, lived many long years without a vacation, and ate worse than McDonalds many nights. It probably continues to inform my perspective... Maybe it's easier to realize how nice things are because I went for many years without those niceties and I realize they're definitely not needs.

Cool well I’m an UMC American and we have standards including a tree, stockings and some presents for Christmas.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don't have a partner in your husband and it is breaking you, divorce. Seriously.

It's a really good vibe check. Are you willing to do this alone? If so, ditch the not-partner and do it alone. Otherwise, figure out what's so upsetting about it and shift your attitude. Maybe you need to cut back, or maybe you're tired and overreacting. Or maybe you need to ask for help you haven't articulated needing, instead of assuming your partner knows. Do what you can to adjust your circumstances, then adjust your perception and attitude about them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can be free of the resentment whenever you choose to put it down.

I am the superior parent. Without my spouse, the kids would be okay. They have me. Without me, the kids are FOOKED. I win. I take pride in it. I don't sit and stew about how their other parent could never. I pat myself on the back because I can, and I did. If you're better with the mental load, GOOD FOR YOU.

Nobody can take advantage of your mental labor without your consent. You either need to restructure your household or reframe your mentality. The latter is always within your control.

I have a friend currently going through what OP is describing and I find this statement you made really interesting. I'm at a loss as to how to help her because my husband is an equal partner so while I hear what she is telling me, I am struggling with understanding it but mostly I am struggling with how to help her (for now I just listen and extend sympathy and I don't think I can solve their problems but I have directed her to books or other resources that people have suggested).

So if you don't mind, would you tell me more about what you said? She works full-time in a demanding medical profession where she is out of the house and on her feet dealing with a lot of trauma at work. On top of that, she handles everything for the two kids because he just won't read the emails from the school about picture day, etc., and her youngest is too little to remember things like that on his own. The mental labor she talks about is being the one to keep track of and do everything, so how can she feel as though her husband isn't taking advantage of the fact that she keeps everything in place?

It's a mentality shift. She has an expectation that he "should" do something. Do more, get involved, read the emails, whatever it is. There's the task that needs doing (making sure the kids have what they need) and the expectation about who "should" do it. The first part isn't gonna move much. If you want school pictures, you need to buy them and there's usually a deadline (there's flexibility here, and it's not a world-ender either way, but that's the example you used so let's go with it). If she wants school pictures, she can buy them, dress the kid how she might like, and enjoy the fact that she has the resources to do so. Or, she can stew about how she 'had' to do it, and he 'should've' helped.

Expectations are premeditated resentments.

The overwhelming majority of this strife is internal. We hold some belief that we "shouldn't have to" shoulder the mental load. You can just as easily shift that to gratitude for being able to shoulder the mental load. It's the same mental load either way, but you do get to choose how you feel about it. If you want to feel resentful, keep telling yourself a person you don't control should do things differently. If you want to feel proud and grateful, congratulate yourself for doing the work.

If it's things that need to get done, reframe how you see them. But also? A lot of the stuff we "need" (e.g. wrapping Christmas presents), we really don't. We use the same "should" to force labor onto ourselves that, realistically, nobody asked for and most could probably go without. And then, if/when you drop the holiday whatever that was important to your spouse, well, there's an invitation for him to pick it up. "Thanks for letting me know it's important to you to have a 4-course Christmas meal. Are you thinking about making one, or would a suggestion for catering/pick up be more helpful?"

There's a sort of pervasive USian whining culture, pride in be busy to the point of exhaustion. It creeps in and we start to believe it. The reality is that most of us are no busier than we choose to be, and not taking responsibility for our choices. Controlling other people and their behavior isn't a choice we get to make, and we can choose to control our own actions, attitudes, and energy expenditures. Resentments are a warning that boundaries have been crossed. If we're honest, it's usually us having crossed them ourselves, doing/giving more than we can reasonably do/give while staying in balance.

And there's always the final vibe check: Would I be doing this as a single parent? If yes, then you're probably doing it because you care about it for yourself and/or your kid (i.e. it matters to you). Change your attitude about it. If no, you might be doing it because someone else expects it of you, or you think they do (i.e. this is how it was when you were growing up, your spouse likes it this way, you feel obligated to do this non-essential thing for someone beyond yourself that isn't your kid). Change your behavior about it.

Anonymous wrote: But, why is he pissed??? He could have just as easily cooked it and didn’t.So, why does he get to be pissed? And, so what if he’s pissed! He’s an adult who can manage complex emotions.

You can either do things differently and be a bit uncomfortable for a while as the culture & dynamics in your house/relationship evolve or you can stew in your own misery. Your choice

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can be free of the resentment whenever you choose to put it down.

I am the superior parent. Without my spouse, the kids would be okay. They have me. Without me, the kids are FOOKED. I win. I take pride in it. I don't sit and stew about how their other parent could never. I pat myself on the back because I can, and I did. If you're better with the mental load, GOOD FOR YOU.

Nobody can take advantage of your mental labor without your consent. You either need to restructure your household or reframe your mentality. The latter is always within your control.

I have a friend currently going through what OP is describing and I find this statement you made really interesting. I'm at a loss as to how to help her because my husband is an equal partner so while I hear what she is telling me, I am struggling with understanding it but mostly I am struggling with how to help her (for now I just listen and extend sympathy and I don't think I can solve their problems but I have directed her to books or other resources that people have suggested).

So if you don't mind, would you tell me more about what you said? She works full-time in a demanding medical profession where she is out of the house and on her feet dealing with a lot of trauma at work. On top of that, she handles everything for the two kids because he just won't read the emails from the school about picture day, etc., and her youngest is too little to remember things like that on his own. The mental labor she talks about is being the one to keep track of and do everything, so how can she feel as though her husband isn't taking advantage of the fact that she keeps everything in place?

I’m not that poster, but this is a deeper relationship thing. It really isn’t just about getting him to understand. He understands.

It’s like when you are sitting down to dinner and your mom asks if she can have some ketchup, and you respond by getting up and getting some ketchup. But if your child asks if she can have some ketchup, you respond by saying “yes” and maybe telling them where to get it. They are both asking the same question, and you know that they both want the same thing, for you to get the ketchup, but your mom has more power than you and your child has less power, so the response is different.

Your friend’s husband isn’t an idiot. He knows that Christmas presents need to be purchased and food needs to be prepared. Creating this dynamic where she is responsible for asking him to do it is about establishing power structures. It’s not that he doesn’t understand what’s being asked of him.

I don’t know what the way is to get out of it. I mean, if you are the child in the situation I described and you ask for the ketchup…How do you get your mom to go get the ketchup, at least some of the time?
There is nothing you can do in the moment. You have to change the entire dynamic of the relationship.

Use the example of a woman who does the shopping for presents because she assumes her man won't and she doesn't disappoint the kids. She might be surprised to find he also doesn't want to disappoint the kids, but she's not willing to risk the kids' disappointment. He knows that, he knows she won't let them go without, and so he does nothing, knowing she's got it covered.

Drop it once, and you'll see just how quickly he learns how to shop for presents. Same with cooking dinner, shopping for groceries, etc. If you're doing those things because your spouse isn't reliable, your spouse isn't doing those things because you are. Either learn to get your satisfaction from being reliable/responsible/the one who gets it done, or stop doing it. If your spouse truly can't pick up the slack, well, you can buy presents, make dinner, etc. as a single parent without the dead weight.

I don’t think this is right.
Unless your household is completely dysfunctional or you don’t celebrate Christmas, there is an expectation that there will be presents on Christmas morning and that someone is going to do the whole Santa thing.
The assumption is that she is going to handle it because she is the lesser ranking spouse and therefore has more of the grunt work.
If she doesn’t do it, he isn’t automatically going to pick up the slack. He’s going to be mad. Maybe it’s worth the fight. I don’t know.

But the reason she buys the presents and makes the dinner and gets something for her MIL isn’t just because she cares about her kids having the presents. It’s because she doesn’t want to invite conflict.

It's almost like avoiding confrontations comes at a cost...

You have way bigger problems if not doing all of the mental load causes extreme conflict that scares you. In that case: divorce.

Really?
I’m not the person who said that my husband would scream at me, but I did say there would be conflict.

I posted earlier with an example that if my kid asked me if they could have ketchup at dinner, I would tell them they could and expect them to get it themselves. But if my mom asked for ketchup with dinner, I would get up and get it for her. It’s a power thing. I am above my kid and below my mom.

Now, if my kid just sat there and said, “Why can’t you get the ketchup? You did it for grandma,” there would be conflict. It wouldn’t be screaming, and it might even just be a “look,” but it would be known that my kid needs to get his own ketchup.

This is the kind of conflict I’m talking about. If I don’t want do something, I can ask him to do it, and he can say “yes” or “no.” But if I just drop the ball, it’s generally felt that I f’ed up. And it’s mostly non-verbal.

This idea that if he sees me not making Christmas dinner, he will know that he should make it, is just ridiculous. It won’t get made, and he will be pissed.

Anonymous wrote:

Really?
I’m not the person who said that my husband would scream at me, but I did say there would be conflict.

I posted earlier with an example that if my kid asked me if they could have ketchup at dinner, I would tell them they could and expect them to get it themselves. But if my mom asked for ketchup with dinner, I would get up and get it for her. It’s a power thing. I am above my kid and below my mom.

Now, if my kid just sat there and said, “Why can’t you get the ketchup? You did it for grandma,” there would be conflict. It wouldn’t be screaming, and it might even just be a “look,” but it would be known that my kid needs to get his own ketchup.

This is the kind of conflict I’m talking about. If I don’t want do something, I can ask him to do it, and he can say “yes” or “no.” But if I just drop the ball, it’s generally felt that I f’ed up. And it’s mostly non-verbal.

This idea that if he sees me not making Christmas dinner, he will know that he should make it, is just ridiculous. It won’t get made, and he will be pissed.

Anonymous wrote:Do whatever you would do if he wasn’t there. But don’t do anything extra that involves him specifically.

What happens if you ask him, “What parts of getting ready for Christmas do you want to handle?”

My kid knows who does all the holiday stuff, fwiw.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some defenders on this thread are missing a crucial point when they say “if you’re too mentally stressed to handle it, don’t do it.” It’s not that women are so stressed they just can’t possibly do it. It’s that she’s doing all that - even taking just an hour a day - while her husband gets to relax, watch tv, scroll his phone. We’d love the opportunity to have downtime too!

What's stopping you? Truly. Analyze where you spend your time and energy, and then stop doing the stupid shit that truly doesn't NEED to get done. Choosing to run yourself into the ground isn't grounds for resentment. You did that to yourself. If you're unhappy, STOP. If you want downtime, take downtime. Quit blaming your spouse and kids for your inability to manage your time in a way that doesn't leave your burnt out and bitter.

What’s stopping us is the fear that our kids will be sad. That’s the point of the thread. Men know we love our kids so much, we won’t risk that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can be free of the resentment whenever you choose to put it down.

I am the superior parent. Without my spouse, the kids would be okay. They have me. Without me, the kids are FOOKED. I win. I take pride in it. I don't sit and stew about how their other parent could never. I pat myself on the back because I can, and I did. If you're better with the mental load, GOOD FOR YOU.

Nobody can take advantage of your mental labor without your consent. You either need to restructure your household or reframe your mentality. The latter is always within your control.

I have a friend currently going through what OP is describing and I find this statement you made really interesting. I'm at a loss as to how to help her because my husband is an equal partner so while I hear what she is telling me, I am struggling with understanding it but mostly I am struggling with how to help her (for now I just listen and extend sympathy and I don't think I can solve their problems but I have directed her to books or other resources that people have suggested).

So if you don't mind, would you tell me more about what you said? She works full-time in a demanding medical profession where she is out of the house and on her feet dealing with a lot of trauma at work. On top of that, she handles everything for the two kids because he just won't read the emails from the school about picture day, etc., and her youngest is too little to remember things like that on his own. The mental labor she talks about is being the one to keep track of and do everything, so how can she feel as though her husband isn't taking advantage of the fact that she keeps everything in place?

I’m not that poster, but this is a deeper relationship thing. It really isn’t just about getting him to understand. He understands.

It’s like when you are sitting down to dinner and your mom asks if she can have some ketchup, and you respond by getting up and getting some ketchup. But if your child asks if she can have some ketchup, you respond by saying “yes” and maybe telling them where to get it. They are both asking the same question, and you know that they both want the same thing, for you to get the ketchup, but your mom has more power than you and your child has less power, so the response is different.

Your friend’s husband isn’t an idiot. He knows that Christmas presents need to be purchased and food needs to be prepared. Creating this dynamic where she is responsible for asking him to do it is about establishing power structures. It’s not that he doesn’t understand what’s being asked of him.

I don’t know what the way is to get out of it. I mean, if you are the child in the situation I described and you ask for the ketchup…How do you get your mom to go get the ketchup, at least some of the time?
There is nothing you can do in the moment. You have to change the entire dynamic of the relationship.

Use the example of a woman who does the shopping for presents because she assumes her man won't and she doesn't disappoint the kids. She might be surprised to find he also doesn't want to disappoint the kids, but she's not willing to risk the kids' disappointment. He knows that, he knows she won't let them go without, and so he does nothing, knowing she's got it covered.

Drop it once, and you'll see just how quickly he learns how to shop for presents. Same with cooking dinner, shopping for groceries, etc. If you're doing those things because your spouse isn't reliable, your spouse isn't doing those things because you are. Either learn to get your satisfaction from being reliable/responsible/the one who gets it done, or stop doing it. If your spouse truly can't pick up the slack, well, you can buy presents, make dinner, etc. as a single parent without the dead weight.

I don’t think this is right.
Unless your household is completely dysfunctional or you don’t celebrate Christmas, there is an expectation that there will be presents on Christmas morning and that someone is going to do the whole Santa thing.
The assumption is that she is going to handle it because she is the lesser ranking spouse and therefore has more of the grunt work.
If she doesn’t do it, he isn’t automatically going to pick up the slack. He’s going to be mad. Maybe it’s worth the fight. I don’t know.

But the reason she buys the presents and makes the dinner and gets something for her MIL isn’t just because she cares about her kids having the presents. It’s because she doesn’t want to invite conflict.

It's almost like avoiding confrontations comes at a cost...

You have way bigger problems if not doing all of the mental load causes extreme conflict that scares you. In that case: divorce.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for the extreme mental and physical load of being the primary breadwinner thread.

Men who'd join it are probably waiting for a woman to start it.

This is kind of a joke, but also kind of true.
It would be nice to hear the perspective of a man who is in a heterosexual marriage that doesn’t hate women and doesn’t think that giving children Christmas presents is optional.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Absolutely obsessed with these people who assume the woman resentful of the mental load must be a SAHM or has some sort of “for fun” job. I know moms in hetero marriages who are the default parent and household manager and make double what the husband makes.

Statistically these cases are rare as you are well aware.

Maybe making double is rare. Women working full-time with kids along with their husbands is not. In fact, in 45% of marriages, the wife earns the same or more.

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2023/04/13/in-a-growing-share-of-u-s-marriages-husbands-and-wives-earn-about-the-same/

+1

I make almost 3 times what my husband does, and I know a number of other women in a similar position. We are all the default parents and carry the majority of the mental load.

So stop.

And neglect the children? Yeah, great solution.

I stopped cooking and my husband looked like a deer in the headlights at first but then he started scrambling. First he ordered take out, then bought prepared meals at Whole Foods, and now he’s getting the meal boxes with ingredients that he cooks. No, my kids weren’t neglected. And, it turns out, he could and would cook if I stopped cooking. I did the same thing with Summer camps: told him in December that I was no longer in charge of securing Summer camps, let him know if he didn’t have a plan for the kids by early January, we’d be screwed. Lo and be hold he got it done and is now on Year 3 of being Summer camp organizer. I no longer think about it…well except for now while writing this. Some things will go awry, it will be ugly sometimes but it’s worth it.

PPs aren’t suggesting shifting the load to their husbands. They’re suggesting abandoning key work—like finding summer camps—altogether, insisting it isn’t actually necessary and that these women’s stressors are all in their heads.

Summer camp isn't key work. It's not that the problem is all in your head, it's that the problem is your attachment to unnecessary things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some defenders on this thread are missing a crucial point when they say “if you’re too mentally stressed to handle it, don’t do it.” It’s not that women are so stressed they just can’t possibly do it. It’s that she’s doing all that - even taking just an hour a day - while her husband gets to relax, watch tv, scroll his phone. We’d love the opportunity to have downtime too!

What's stopping you? Truly. Analyze where you spend your time and energy, and then stop doing the stupid shit that truly doesn't NEED to get done. Choosing to run yourself into the ground isn't grounds for resentment. You did that to yourself. If you're unhappy, STOP. If you want downtime, take downtime. Quit blaming your spouse and kids for your inability to manage your time in a way that doesn't leave your burnt out and bitter.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for the extreme mental and physical load of being the primary breadwinner thread.

Men who'd join it are probably waiting for a woman to start it.

This is kind of a joke, but also kind of true.
It would be nice to hear the perspective of a man who is in a heterosexual marriage that doesn’t hate women and doesn’t think that giving children Christmas presents is optional.