Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Does your company have a handbook or a code of conduct that includes a few sentences about dress. Many of these young people had COVID disrupt internships and college and they may have not received the memo on how to dress. With an industry like banking it's definitely business casual but with tech or something creative I can see how young adults might feel more free to express themself. I think if your company doesn't have a policy it's fair to depending upon your role (supervisor) reach out to HR to see if there is already something the company has on this. If the company doesn't have guidance then consider speaking to HR about whether this is needed and if they believe it is they can write something up and someone from HR can send it out to new hires. I think expecting that people will be groomed and maintain good hygiene is completely reasonable. But fashionable haircuts or makeup may not be reasonable to request of women from an HR-standpoint. And I would also ask you to consider how much these young adults are making? They may not be able to afford a fashionable haircut if they are paying off student loans, paying for an apartment, a phone, etc. I guess I would also add that you may want to consider how someone presents themself during the interview process since the work is client-facing.

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Anonymous wrote:Maybe you are just and old fuddy duddy and not "in" with the new styles? You sound like my grandmother tut-tutting my perfectly normal outfits.

If your clients are creative, they may be more likely to appreciate the GenZ style vs a fuddy duddy.

There has always been business attire and casual attire.
People in my office also notice that Gen Z dioesn't dress appropriately. Today one wore a cream colored see through dreess and we can all see her tongue underwear. Another one is wearing a crop top that exposes her belly with leather pants. Nothing fuddy duddy about workplace guidelines about what not to wear.

Oh god. Thankfully we've never had to deal with this.

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Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

It's much harder to define "looking appropriate" for women, since there is a lot more variety in women's fashion in general. It's also trickier, since the wrong wording can turn a desire for work-appropriate looks into something sexist, which was the whole problem to begin with. Also, there are problems with the male workforce as well, but the posters here seem fixated on finding a way to make the original issue about sexism and not about how to encourage appropriate workwear *without* being sexist. For the record, some of the male workers have shown up in sweatpants, sometimes ripped or stained, or what appear to be running shorts at times when those things were definitely not OK. --OP

I just went to an off site with a bunch of military and former military guys where the dress code was “casual” and what kills me is they were really explicit about what men could and could not wear (I.e. collared sport shirt, no t-shirt; khakis, no jeans or shorts or cargo pants) and then underneath it literally said “women: female equivalent” and I am trying to figure out what the female equivalent of dockers is. Is it capri pants? What is the female equivalent of a collared shirt? Can I wear a denim skirt or is that considered the “equivalent” of jeans? It’s a skirt so doesn’t that make it a level up in formality? For the record I am sixty and I could not figure this out. What is the casual shoe equivalent of sketchers or boat shoes? Funny thing is my husband came along to the off site as the “spouse” and he knew exactly what to wear!

The equivalent is the same thing. The equivalent of a collared shirt is a collared shirt. The equivalent of a pair of jeans is a pair of jeans, not a jean skirt— which no 60 year old woman should be wearing anyway.

Every single thing you wrote is wrong. Are you a troll?

A 60 year old woman can absolutely wear a jean skirt as long as it is not a mini skirt.

Rule of thumb for skirt/dress length is if you put your hands down while standing up it should be longer than the end of your hand.

The directive was probably written by a man for men. He probably did not know and/or care what female spouses would wear.

NP. No, if it says no denim for men, then women cannot wear a jean skirt.

It should have been outlined beforehand, though it's sad it doesn't seem obvious. My GenZ was told before his internship that he had to wear a tie and slacks every day. He hated it, but it was very clear.

The women were in the meeting. They were not 'female spouses'.

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Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

It's much harder to define "looking appropriate" for women, since there is a lot more variety in women's fashion in general. It's also trickier, since the wrong wording can turn a desire for work-appropriate looks into something sexist, which was the whole problem to begin with. Also, there are problems with the male workforce as well, but the posters here seem fixated on finding a way to make the original issue about sexism and not about how to encourage appropriate workwear *without* being sexist. For the record, some of the male workers have shown up in sweatpants, sometimes ripped or stained, or what appear to be running shorts at times when those things were definitely not OK. --OP

I just went to an off site with a bunch of military and former military guys where the dress code was “casual” and what kills me is they were really explicit about what men could and could not wear (I.e. collared sport shirt, no t-shirt; khakis, no jeans or shorts or cargo pants) and then underneath it literally said “women: female equivalent” and I am trying to figure out what the female equivalent of dockers is. Is it capri pants? What is the female equivalent of a collared shirt? Can I wear a denim skirt or is that considered the “equivalent” of jeans? It’s a skirt so doesn’t that make it a level up in formality? For the record I am sixty and I could not figure this out. What is the casual shoe equivalent of sketchers or boat shoes? Funny thing is my husband came along to the off site as the “spouse” and he knew exactly what to wear!

The equivalent is the same thing. The equivalent of a collared shirt is a collared shirt. The equivalent of a pair of jeans is a pair of jeans, not a jean skirt— which no 60 year old woman should be wearing anyway.

Every single thing you wrote is wrong. Are you a troll?

A 60 year old woman can absolutely wear a jean skirt as long as it is not a mini skirt.

Rule of thumb for skirt/dress length is if you put your hands down while standing up it should be longer than the end of your hand.

The directive was probably written by a man for men. He probably did not know and/or care what female spouses would wear.

NP. No, if it says no denim for men, then women cannot wear a jean skirt.

It should have been outlined beforehand, though it's sad it doesn't seem obvious. My GenZ was told before his internship that he had to wear a tie and slacks every day. He hated it, but it was very clear.

I was responding to the PP who wrote "no 60 year old woman should be wearing a jean skirt anyway".

A 60 year old woman can absolutely wear a jean skirt, although I agree with you not for this occasion.

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Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

It's much harder to define "looking appropriate" for women, since there is a lot more variety in women's fashion in general. It's also trickier, since the wrong wording can turn a desire for work-appropriate looks into something sexist, which was the whole problem to begin with. Also, there are problems with the male workforce as well, but the posters here seem fixated on finding a way to make the original issue about sexism and not about how to encourage appropriate workwear *without* being sexist. For the record, some of the male workers have shown up in sweatpants, sometimes ripped or stained, or what appear to be running shorts at times when those things were definitely not OK. --OP

I just went to an off site with a bunch of military and former military guys where the dress code was “casual” and what kills me is they were really explicit about what men could and could not wear (I.e. collared sport shirt, no t-shirt; khakis, no jeans or shorts or cargo pants) and then underneath it literally said “women: female equivalent” and I am trying to figure out what the female equivalent of dockers is. Is it capri pants? What is the female equivalent of a collared shirt? Can I wear a denim skirt or is that considered the “equivalent” of jeans? It’s a skirt so doesn’t that make it a level up in formality? For the record I am sixty and I could not figure this out. What is the casual shoe equivalent of sketchers or boat shoes? Funny thing is my husband came along to the off site as the “spouse” and he knew exactly what to wear!

The equivalent is the same thing. The equivalent of a collared shirt is a collared shirt. The equivalent of a pair of jeans is a pair of jeans, not a jean skirt— which no 60 year old woman should be wearing anyway.

Every single thing you wrote is wrong. Are you a troll?

A 60 year old woman can absolutely wear a jean skirt as long as it is not a mini skirt.

Rule of thumb for skirt/dress length is if you put your hands down while standing up it should be longer than the end of your hand.

The directive was probably written by a man for men. He probably did not know and/or care what female spouses would wear.

NP. No, if it says no denim for men, then women cannot wear a jean skirt.

It should have been outlined beforehand, though it's sad it doesn't seem obvious. My GenZ was told before his internship that he had to wear a tie and slacks every day. He hated it, but it was very clear.

OP I shaved today. Consider this my “dressing up” for the year

This isn’t outlined in employee handbook?

Anonymous wrote:Man I can't wait until the boomers all die or retire and this idiotic obsession with how people dress dies with them.

The clothes you wear have literally zero bearing on how well you can do your job. Wear what you want, but shut up about what other people wear, it's none of your business and is completely irrelevant to their job performance.

This

In addition to functionality, clothing also has a certain "symbolic meaning." I suppose eventually wearing flip flops and a bikini top to a church funeral - or to work - won't be viewed as communicating anything, but we're not there yet and I'm not sure we should ever get there.

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Anonymous wrote:Man I can't wait until the boomers all die or retire and this idiotic obsession with how people dress dies with them.

The clothes you wear have literally zero bearing on how well you can do your job. Wear what you want, but shut up about what other people wear, it's none of your business and is completely irrelevant to their job performance.

This

In addition to functionality, clothing also has a certain "symbolic meaning." I suppose eventually wearing flip flops and a bikini top to a church funeral - or to work - won't be viewed as communicating anything, but we're not there yet and I'm not sure we should ever get there.

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Anonymous wrote:Man I can't wait until the boomers all die or retire and this idiotic obsession with how people dress dies with them.

The clothes you wear have literally zero bearing on how well you can do your job. Wear what you want, but shut up about what other people wear, it's none of your business and is completely irrelevant to their job performance.

This

I've worked for Disney World and the Marriott corporation. We were required to dress professionally. It's just part of the job.

I work in creative and nobody dresses as if they work for a hotel chain.

I worked in HR.

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Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

It's much harder to define "looking appropriate" for women, since there is a lot more variety in women's fashion in general. It's also trickier, since the wrong wording can turn a desire for work-appropriate looks into something sexist, which was the whole problem to begin with. Also, there are problems with the male workforce as well, but the posters here seem fixated on finding a way to make the original issue about sexism and not about how to encourage appropriate workwear *without* being sexist. For the record, some of the male workers have shown up in sweatpants, sometimes ripped or stained, or what appear to be running shorts at times when those things were definitely not OK. --OP

I just went to an off site with a bunch of military and former military guys where the dress code was “casual” and what kills me is they were really explicit about what men could and could not wear (I.e. collared sport shirt, no t-shirt; khakis, no jeans or shorts or cargo pants) and then underneath it literally said “women: female equivalent” and I am trying to figure out what the female equivalent of dockers is. Is it capri pants? What is the female equivalent of a collared shirt? Can I wear a denim skirt or is that considered the “equivalent” of jeans? It’s a skirt so doesn’t that make it a level up in formality? For the record I am sixty and I could not figure this out. What is the casual shoe equivalent of sketchers or boat shoes? Funny thing is my husband came along to the off site as the “spouse” and he knew exactly what to wear!

The equivalent is the same thing. The equivalent of a collared shirt is a collared shirt. The equivalent of a pair of jeans is a pair of jeans, not a jean skirt— which no 60 year old woman should be wearing anyway.

Every single thing you wrote is wrong. Are you a troll?

A 60 year old woman can absolutely wear a jean skirt as long as it is not a mini skirt.

Rule of thumb for skirt/dress length is if you put your hands down while standing up it should be longer than the end of your hand.

The directive was probably written by a man for men. He probably did not know and/or care what female spouses would wear.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

It's much harder to define "looking appropriate" for women, since there is a lot more variety in women's fashion in general. It's also trickier, since the wrong wording can turn a desire for work-appropriate looks into something sexist, which was the whole problem to begin with. Also, there are problems with the male workforce as well, but the posters here seem fixated on finding a way to make the original issue about sexism and not about how to encourage appropriate workwear *without* being sexist. For the record, some of the male workers have shown up in sweatpants, sometimes ripped or stained, or what appear to be running shorts at times when those things were definitely not OK. --OP

I just went to an off site with a bunch of military and former military guys where the dress code was “casual” and what kills me is they were really explicit about what men could and could not wear (I.e. collared sport shirt, no t-shirt; khakis, no jeans or shorts or cargo pants) and then underneath it literally said “women: female equivalent” and I am trying to figure out what the female equivalent of dockers is. Is it capri pants? What is the female equivalent of a collared shirt? Can I wear a denim skirt or is that considered the “equivalent” of jeans? It’s a skirt so doesn’t that make it a level up in formality? For the record I am sixty and I could not figure this out. What is the casual shoe equivalent of sketchers or boat shoes? Funny thing is my husband came along to the off site as the “spouse” and he knew exactly what to wear!

The equivalent is the same thing. The equivalent of a collared shirt is a collared shirt. The equivalent of a pair of jeans is a pair of jeans, not a jean skirt— which no 60 year old woman should be wearing anyway.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

It's much harder to define "looking appropriate" for women, since there is a lot more variety in women's fashion in general. It's also trickier, since the wrong wording can turn a desire for work-appropriate looks into something sexist, which was the whole problem to begin with. Also, there are problems with the male workforce as well, but the posters here seem fixated on finding a way to make the original issue about sexism and not about how to encourage appropriate workwear *without* being sexist. For the record, some of the male workers have shown up in sweatpants, sometimes ripped or stained, or what appear to be running shorts at times when those things were definitely not OK. --OP

I just went to an off site with a bunch of military and former military guys where the dress code was “casual” and what kills me is they were really explicit about what men could and could not wear (I.e. collared sport shirt, no t-shirt; khakis, no jeans or shorts or cargo pants) and then underneath it literally said “women: female equivalent” and I am trying to figure out what the female equivalent of dockers is. Is it capri pants? What is the female equivalent of a collared shirt? Can I wear a denim skirt or is that considered the “equivalent” of jeans? It’s a skirt so doesn’t that make it a level up in formality? For the record I am sixty and I could not figure this out. What is the casual shoe equivalent of sketchers or boat shoes? Funny thing is my husband came along to the off site as the “spouse” and he knew exactly what to wear!